Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

blacksoft wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:25 am One - the class had been implemented with a rage-like buff that adds +4 to dex. Feral stance is meant to replicate animalistic attributes - I would think that those feral tendencies would not be able to be replicated by tacking on dex item...You are suggesting that I first say what is wrong with the class in order to question this buff - I am only questioning what is already seemingly part of its mechanic. It currently appears to be mostly superfluous.

What makes you think that? The fact that it gives a DEX and AB means that at a minimum it's not meant to stack since Weapon Finesse would theoretically double the AB benefit. If meant to stack it would likely have been designed as metaquad4 suggests. (+2 AB, +2 Dodge AC, +2 Reflex Saves). The way it was implemented makes me think that at the time the PRC was added that it specifically was not designed to stack. Of course the most LIKELY reason is that it was implemented as a large number of PRCs from Kaedrin's pack and more than likely no one gave too much thought to it.

blacksoft wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:25 am Two - On the assumption that I need to explain why this class needs extra help/buff for an ability it already has, I would suggest for you to compare this to Dwarven defender's defensive stance (which are stackable). Yes, the DD class is the quintessential tank class, as it should be. However, Both FotF and Breach Gnome (in my opinion) are attempting to accomplish a similar thing. FotF cannot do this if the DEX bonuses do not stack. The Con AC bonus is mitigated by however much natural Con you put into it. This means that for whatever natural CON you are adding you are taking from somewhere else. This is why I believe the original intention for the class to have feral stance with +4 to dex (as well as +2 AB bonus) was to offset the opportunity cost of putting natural points into CON rather than strength, wisdom or dex. (i.e you are almost ending where you started AC-wise if you had not). The feral stance is meant to take your CON decision and bring it to the next level where you can have a total net gain and have a bit of the dwarven defender's tankiness.

But the thing is, part of playing a Monk type is the decisions you make. Going WIS based requires feat investment for Intuitive Attack and utilization of other feats (Northlander Hewing, Fiery Fist, or Blazing Aura) in order to have solid damage to get through untyped DR, but you gain great synergy by having one stat (WIS which grants AB, AC and DC on your Monk abilities. Going DEX based is usually done to grab 5 levels of SD for Epic Dodge and HiPS. This is the most defensive of the Monk builds, but has similar issues with damage and does not have the same options as WIS based, basically only being able to up damage with NH. Going STR based Monk addresses the issue of consistent damage and is less feat intensive, but takes a pretty important hit to AC. Going FotF allows the monk to have AC from DEX, WIS and CON... This is a huge benefit if you want a more well rounded or STR based Monk since you can essentially go ~13 DEX/WIS and 14 CON and end up with +8 AC (with +3 DEX/WIS items) or go 14/14/14 to end up with + 10 AC (with +4 DEX/WIS items). For a STR based Monk/FotF you could basically have 10 (base) + 5 (monk) + 10 (DEX/WIS/CON) + 16 (Armor/Deflection/Dodge/Natural) + 3 (Tumble) + 1 (LoH) = 45, which can further increase to 51 with a wand of IMA and shield. Do they really need an extra +2 AC when they can already get that high with only ~18 points allocated to DEX/CON/WIS? This still leaves a lot of room to start at ~17 STR and end up somewhere between 24 - 27 STR. So again, what is such a build giving up?

blacksoft wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:25 am FB level 5 for supreme cleave, toughness, and EPA - not frenzy are the main reasons this class is popular. Most people who go FB would probably still take it even if the Frenzy was not implemented at all.

Mostly just for Enhanced IPA. However, if you read what I wrote that's exactly my point. The prevalence of wands/scrolls/potions that allow players to get Deathward takes the real strength of Frenzy out of the equation.

BG Wiki wrote:Deathless Frenzy
At 4th level, when the Frenzied Berserker is under the effects of Frenzy, he/she has the effects of the 4th level Cleric spell Death Ward. For the duration of the Frenzy, the Frenzied Berserker is immune to any Energy Drain, Negative Energy Damage, Ability Decreasing Effects or Death Spells, Spell-like Abilities, and Effects. This bonus is in addition to all benefits and penalties granted by Frenzy itself.

If deathward were not literally already being applied to nearly every PC on the server via wand, this power would be exceedingly powerful. In fact a similar such ability is the reason the 'Berserker' class in Baldur's Gate II, Shadows of Amn was so popular a kit. My point was that part of what makes Frenzy not considered strong isn't the ability itself, but the abundance of power on the server to apply similar effects. One could argue making UMD only available as a class skill would be a path to making such abilities more powerful. However, so many builds dip rogue, assassin or other classes/PRCs that have UMD as a class skill that getting 11 UMD is never going to be a rare thing.


Again, when requesting a change to how a class or classes have worked from many years, it will get more traction if something could be presented which actually shows that the way it is currently designed is somehow detrimental. Note that I am not a decision maker here, just trying to help you formulate an argument that might get Valefort/Admins to look at it and think "hmmm, he has a point". Because otherwise, they'll likely think "we have more important things to focus on."

chad878262 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:11 am

blacksoft wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:25 am One - the class had been implemented with a rage-like buff that adds +4 to dex. Feral stance is meant to replicate animalistic attributes - I would think that those feral tendencies would not be able to be replicated by tacking on dex item...You are suggesting that I first say what is wrong with the class in order to question this buff - I am only questioning what is already seemingly part of its mechanic. It currently appears to be mostly superfluous.

What makes you think that? The fact that it gives a DEX and AB means that at a minimum it's not meant to stack since Weapon Finesse would theoretically double the AB benefit. If meant to stack it would likely have been designed as metaquad4 suggests. (+2 AB, +2 Dodge AC, +2 Reflex Saves). The way it was implemented makes me think that at the time the PRC was added that it specifically was not designed to stack. Of course the most LIKELY reason is that it was implemented as a large number of PRCs from Kaedrin's pack and more than likely no one gave too much thought to it.

blacksoft wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:25 am Two - On the assumption that I need to explain why this class needs extra help/buff for an ability it already has, I would suggest for you to compare this to Dwarven defender's defensive stance (which are stackable). Yes, the DD class is the quintessential tank class, as it should be. However, Both FotF and Breach Gnome (in my opinion) are attempting to accomplish a similar thing. FotF cannot do this if the DEX bonuses do not stack. The Con AC bonus is mitigated by however much natural Con you put into it. This means that for whatever natural CON you are adding you are taking from somewhere else. This is why I believe the original intention for the class to have feral stance with +4 to dex (as well as +2 AB bonus) was to offset the opportunity cost of putting natural points into CON rather than strength, wisdom or dex. (i.e you are almost ending where you started AC-wise if you had not). The feral stance is meant to take your CON decision and bring it to the next level where you can have a total net gain and have a bit of the dwarven defender's tankiness.

But the thing is, part of playing a Monk type is the decisions you make. Going WIS based requires feat investment for Intuitive Attack and utilization of other feats (Northlander Hewing, Fiery Fist, or Blazing Aura) in order to have solid damage to get through untyped DR, but you gain great synergy by having one stat (WIS which grants AB, AC and DC on your Monk abilities. Going DEX based is usually done to grab 5 levels of SD for Epic Dodge and HiPS. This is the most defensive of the Monk builds, but has similar issues with damage and does not have the same options as WIS based, basically only being able to up damage with NH. Going STR based Monk addresses the issue of consistent damage and is less feat intensive, but takes a pretty important hit to AC. Going FotF allows the monk to have AC from DEX, WIS and CON... This is a huge benefit if you want a more well rounded or STR based Monk since you can essentially go ~13 DEX/WIS and 14 CON and end up with +8 AC (with +3 DEX/WIS items) or go 14/14/14 to end up with + 10 AC (with +4 DEX/WIS items). For a STR based Monk/FotF you could basically have 10 (base) + 5 (monk) + 10 (DEX/WIS/CON) + 16 (Armor/Deflection/Dodge/Natural) + 3 (Tumble) + 1 (LoH) = 45, which can further increase to 51 with a wand of IMA and shield. Do they really need an extra +2 AC when they can already get that high with only ~18 points allocated to DEX/CON/WIS? This still leaves a lot of room to start at ~17 STR and end up somewhere between 24 - 27 STR. So again, what is such a build giving up?

blacksoft wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:25 am FB level 5 for supreme cleave, toughness, and EPA - not frenzy are the main reasons this class is popular. Most people who go FB would probably still take it even if the Frenzy was not implemented at all.

Mostly just for Enhanced IPA. However, if you read what I wrote that's exactly my point. The prevalence of wands/scrolls/potions that allow players to get Deathward takes the real strength of Frenzy out of the equation.

If deathward were not literally already being applied to nearly every PC on the server via wand, this power would be exceedingly powerful. In fact a similar such ability is the reason the 'Berserker' class in Baldur's Gate II, Shadows of Amn was so popular a kit. My point was that part of what makes Frenzy not considered strong isn't the ability itself, but the abundance of power on the server to apply similar effects. One could argue making UMD only available as a class skill would be a path to making such abilities more powerful. However, so many builds dip rogue, assassin or other classes/PRCs that have UMD as a class skill that getting 11 UMD is never going to be a rare thing.

The Power attack feat requirement is telling me the base intention of the class is strength based and most FoTF are not going weapon finesse, but rather strength or wisdom. That would be reason it is giving AB as well as +4 to dex. And as you said, dex based most monks are going for SD, not FotF. Also, FotF in D&D source book is +4 boost to DEX and +2 damage boost. I am assuming the damage was changed to AB when it was pulled into NWN2 from Kaedrin.

Your FotF monk example is perfect for monk, not so much for non-monk FotF. You are just reiterating the point that monk's make really good FoTF and that monk's are top tier melee classes if built right. Other classes do not have that same synergy with FotF. (Also, the monk build will not be getting that much out of feral stance with a basic natural CON score.)

FB - deathless frenzy is nice, no arguing that, but the question in play was about the strength boost part of frenzy.