Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Zymth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:08 pm

Also, I stated it earlier, but obviously missed... If someone enters HiPS you can move away (more quickly than them) and thus avoid the issue you are talking about that they can abuse it with lower stealth than your detection.

Does this strategy work against someone using a bow?
Does it work against rangers who have 100% stealth movement speed outdoors?

bow is weak and have many weaknesses. true man fight face to face

izzul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:34 pm bow is weak and have many weaknesses. true man fight face to face

Zymth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:08 pm

Also, I stated it earlier, but obviously missed... If someone enters HiPS you can move away (more quickly than them) and thus avoid the issue you are talking about that they can abuse it with lower stealth than your detection.

Does this strategy work against someone using a bow?
Does it work against rangers who have 100% stealth movement speed outdoors?

Keyboard warrior discussions can go on forever. In lieu of that, I'd suggest making a HiPs character, leveling them up, and then OOCly dueling a none-hipster so they can show you how to PvP a hips build.

To answer your new question.

[

Zymth wrote:"how prevalent and achievable is this counter, compared to how prevalent and achievable the ability is?"

Very achievable. Builds with enough Spot/Listen, AoEs, AC, or appropriate spells to counter are numerous. You do need to be willing to listen and learn however.
Prevalence is difficult to tell. Considering there are l2p factors, and two builds are rarely the same.

An exact scenario would also help. HiPs is just a byproduct from a PRC, there are numerous builds that can utilize it. Are you talking about a sneak attacker, a HiPs wizard, a HiPs swashbuckler/weaponmaster. . .each of them has a different variety of counters.

---
Also, regarding your statement of people defending HiPsers, an interesting tibbit. I actually used to play HiPs characters primarily, until I realized that barring rogues (who require the mechanic in order to deliver sneak attacks and be of any use in combat), I could actually do better playing none HiPs characters. HiPs takes up all your gear slots, is expensive to gear for (a couple mill usually), and it takes up both stat points, skill points, and a PRC slot all for a 1-trick pony who's best use (1v1 PvP) is largely irrelevant at best. It is pretty overrated tbh, and not at all invincible or the end-all be-all.

Though, having played one and knowing its nuances does help in my case.

If ever you think something (in any game) is OP, I highly recommend playing it, learning its weaknesses, then judging for yourself. Rather than seeking others for validation or jumping on bandwagons.

Archers are strong damage dealers, but generally have low AC and low saves. This means that they are also easy to deal with. You handle archers, quite easily though since they have to be in a fairly short range for HiPS to give them sneak dice and there are many AoE spells that can help against them/neutralize them.

chad878262 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:18 pm Archers are strong damage dealers, but generally have low AC and low saves. This means that they are also easy to deal with. You handle archers, quite easily though since they have to be in a fairly short range for HiPS to give them sneak dice and there are many AoE spells that can help against them/neutralize them.

I can tell you there are archers designed to do almost as much damage at far greater range than the assassin archers!

I mean, lets just consider ranger30 for starters.

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:45 pm I can tell you there are archers designed to do almost as much damage at far greater range than the assassin archers!

I mean, lets just consider ranger30 for starters.

SHHHHH!!!!! Remember, the discussion last week was about how weak Archer Rangers are compared to all other Archers...

You could just roll a man-at-arms to demoralise the hipster, make them run into a corner and beat them down while they rue their low will save. On the other hand the hipster wouldn’t hit the MaA anyway, even if he wasn’t running for his life.

Zymth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:08 am 1. What is the counter to HIPS?

After looking through what everyone else said, I will add my two cents worth on top of everyone else.


- Knockdown
- Any spells that will lock another in place with a status affect.


Overall there's more than a few ways to achieve it.

chad878262 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:05 pm

Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:45 pm I can tell you there are archers designed to do almost as much damage at far greater range than the assassin archers!

I mean, lets just consider ranger30 for starters.

SHHHHH!!!!! Remember, the discussion last week was about how weak Archer Rangers are compared to all other Archers...

It's like these people haven't seen Fenix!

metaquad4 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:05 pmKeyboard warrior discussions can go on forever. In lieu of that, I'd suggest making a HiPs character, leveling them up, and then OOCly dueling a none-hipster so they can show you how to PvP a hips build.

This, pretty much.

And while you're at it, take your OP HIPS'er to some epic areas(or even sub-epic) some time. I highly recommend Frost giants, Forest of Wyrms, or even Durlags... heck, even that Necrolord under Gullykin is a treat. Hopefully you dont have less than 80 hide/ms, and mind that HIPS'er appropriate AC(36 to 40, if you're lucky). Finally, enjoy using thousands of gp worth of consumables on your quest! Feel free to tell us how OP you feel after giving those places a go

chambordini wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:33 pm I dislike how OP it is in pve, defensively. Since mob AI isn't very good at handling the situation.

I also dislike people abusing it in roleplaying situations, I'll usually just walk away, it's just extremely cheesy, like, someone hipsing around and about, right in front of a character, with no nearby obstacles or "hiding spots". It's very poorly implemented.

I know how you feel. I cant stand when melee builds are getting facerolled in pve and they just start spamming heal kits... like, HELLO... you're getting smashed in the face by giants, how the hell you applying so many bandages during that?! Psshhh, weak RP.

I also cant stand how wizards can just... like... start spewing magical incantations while a 100 foot tall dragon is stomping on them like an ant. C'mmmmonnnn... at least throw some "oof's" in between those vampiric feasts bruh. Lame sauce.

And don't even get me started on frezerkers and bards

Ok, I'm done!

SoThereIWas wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:46 pm

Zymth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:08 am 1. What is the counter to HIPS?

After looking through what everyone else said, I will add my two cents worth on top of everyone else.


- Knockdown
- Any spells that will lock another in place with a status affect.


Overall there's more than a few ways to achieve it.

There's also being of High non-flatfooted AC. As long as the sneaker can't remove your defences with a wand and the place is small enough, you either win by getting them to give up or by whacking them.

this is a bit hard to follow, you have asked the question and have gotten answers but you are still confused it seems? or you really really dont like hips which a lot of people dont so it would not be surprising - all of those people those also usually dont understand how it works

but first off about the ranged sneak attacks; no that doesnt work because they have a 30m range to hit you in - that being said very few if any ranged sneak builds need to be that close or even hide from you to mess you up, getting close is just your death sentence once they hips out if you didnt run in the first place

as far the detection thing, if you are not getting that part and you need numbers then basically its stealth skill (H and MS) plus a one time d20 roll when you enter stealth that no one knows about including yourself which means its pretty safe to ignore the fact that you even get one versus detection (S and L) except detection gets three d20 rolls a round and five d20 rolls a round if you have keen senses to spot a sneak -- so at this point it should be fairly clear detection has an advantage over stealth to start with

if you wanna know but technical engine stuff then everything you can think of is also factored into stealth/detection calculations to give environmental bonuses and penalties to the scores, like daytime hours providing +5 bonus to spot and nighttime giving +5 bonus to hide, and there are a LOT of them and they stack good and bad -- another example for rangers and why stealth running is not always good: being on a soft surface gives a +5 MS but moving gives a -5 and running gives a -10

also keep in mind something that was also pointed out about sneaks have to invest in stealth -- they have to invest in BOTH hide and move slightly; a spotter needs only to invest in ONE skill for spot or listen because winning the roll on either gives away the sneak -- advantage wise spot is better than listen because mechanically listen will not enable you to attack someone you heard where spot does

anyway numbers; say a sneak level 30 has max ranks, +10 dex and +20 in gear which is fairly "average" for a beginner, thats 63 H/MS

that means a spotter needs at least a 53 in spot OR listen to be able to detect them fairly easily because once you beat their score ONCE thats it, you spot them and can track them until they make another hide attempt and they dont know they have been detected -- but the closer your detection to their stealth the faster you will spot them and you will get to the point where you basically auto spot whenever they go to hide meaning the second they try they reappear, it will break target lock for spells but thats about it

so while hips seems OP, spotters have to invest much less to actually detect a good sneak and mechanics favor the spotter

people who hate hips often dont understand there are things you can do to put yourself in a better position, but investing in detection is a must -- one trick i will share is about hiding, just because its nighttime or a dark room and it gives the +5 to hide doesnt mean you cant negate that, darkvision completely counters that bonus as does any light source, so you can carry a torch and it will negate the bonus of anyone in range or you can set objects and cast light on them to make a perimeter and bonus gone