Page 2 of 6

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:11 am
by Zkenic
If we add the Heartwarder it should be Sunite only, like our Banite/Lathandarite/Selunite/Sharran prestige classes. That being said, I am not the biggest fan of Kaedrin's version of the Heartwarder, as I think the +5charisma is overturned for BGTSCC. Sorcerer/Heartwarder/Feytouched Aasimar would be able to get 36(40 buffed) charisma (42 with SCP).

As to the new and improved version of Heartwarder (taking out the +5charisma), my only question is what kind of build would actually use that? High charisma requirement + enchantment focuses seem to leave the class mainly geared towards sorcerer again. All the immunities it grants are accessible to clerics through low level spells. Also that feat requirement is pretty hefty. Its seems to me that just removing the +cha part of the class makes it seem a little too weak.

:think: I guess I do not have an obvious and easy solution, other than to say I like the idea of adding Heartwarder but I dont know the best way to balance it for BGTSCC.

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:38 am
by Rhifox
Anrilor wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:40 am
Rhifox wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:46 am I don't see the Fey type change happening. Other classes that are supposed to change your type don't (eg spirit shaman), so that would likely be left out for a Heartwarder class, too.
Right, on nwn2 the race type didn't change you just gained feats that would make your race = to what the racial benefits were, so you got immune to charm and sleep for the "fey metamorphosis" but that would allow you to RP being a fey-like creature

Fey Metamorphosis: At 10th level, a heartwarder is so attuned to the forces of natural beauty that she transcends mortal definitions of beauty. Her type changes to "fey," which means, among other things, that she is no longer affected by spells that specifically target humanoids, such as charm person

So the lore is you gain so much charisma that your beauty transcended mortal beauty and you become fey. But if for mechanical reasons we don't want to give the +5 free Cha that would come with the class then why not push the fey metamorphosis line by giving the fey heritage feats as a build up to fey metamorphosis?
Even if an ability in pnp would cause you to change your type, it is not the case for RP on BG. I've asked this question before for Spirit That Walks for shaman.

You could still be fey-ish, in the way that people with fey heritage are etc, but can't RP being an actual fey. Giving fey heritage feats as part of the class would be cool though.
Zkenic wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:11 am If we add the Heartwarder it should be Sunite only
I wouldn't mind also allowing other love deities from other pantheons. We don't need more super niche classes.

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:06 pm
by Anrilor
Zkenic wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:11 am If we add the Heartwarder it should be Sunite only, like our Banite/Lathandarite/Selunite/Sharran prestige classes. That being said, I am not the biggest fan of Kaedrin's version of the Heartwarder, as I think the +5charisma is overturned for BGTSCC. Sorcerer/Heartwarder/Feytouched Aasimar would be able to get 36(40 buffed) charisma (42 with SCP).

As to the new and improved version of Heartwarder (taking out the +5charisma), my only question is what kind of build would actually use that? High charisma requirement + enchantment focuses seem to leave the class mainly geared towards sorcerer again. All the immunities it grants are accessible to clerics through low level spells. Also that feat requirement is pretty hefty. Its seems to me that just removing the +cha part of the class makes it seem a little too weak.

:think: I guess I do not have an obvious and easy solution, other than to say I like the idea of adding Heartwarder but I dont know the best way to balance it for BGTSCC.
Well that's why I want to replace the +5 cha with the fey heritage feats, so it trades feat for feat. Unless we want to have a requirement that you need fey heritage to take the class similar to feytouched.

I have no preference between keeping it locked to Sune or not. But the tears of evergold ability does make it very clerical by crying holy water.


But I suppose what I am really after is a sort of divine path for fey like character. Even feytouched keeps cleric and FvS locked out. I like flavor classes that dont necessarily make you more powerful but give you unique abilities.

And while fey touched delves into the more chaotic side of the fey, I sort of see this as a more structured delve into it combining fey magics with enhancing divine magics. Sort of like the difference between summer and winter court.

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:55 pm
by JustAnotherGuy
I am not against the PRC. But I'm not exactly for it, either. At least, not as proposed. One of the things is, we can all agree that +5 CHA is a bit OP. So, the proposal takes that +5 CHA, and switches it out for equal power. So it's still OP. Instead of the spells per day and DC that +5 CHA would get, you get several SLA per day, and a +1 DC to some spells. Not to mention essentially a DR 5/cold iron for free.

Finally, I'm against any type of PRC that essentially says, "You must RP this way towards me". Which is essentially what that last feat does. "I'm beautiful, and you must treat me as if I'm one of the most beautiful creatures you've ever seen". To me, it's akin to people rolling CHA to show how attractive their toon is.

Again, I'm not necessarily against the idea of the PRC. But I think it would need lots of tweaking to implement it.

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:08 pm
by kersplunk
JustAnotherGuy wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:55 pm Finally, I'm against any type of PRC that essentially says, "You must RP this way towards me". Which is essentially what that last feat does. "I'm beautiful, and you must treat me as if I'm one of the most beautiful creatures you've ever seen". To me, it's akin to people rolling CHA to show how attractive their toon is.
Charisma has nothing to do with looks or physical attractiveness.

The stat is about the character's presence. Strength of personality, how much attention they command, how confident they appear, how they can work a room. Sure, physical beauty definitely helps, as people are more likely to pay more attention to someone they find attractive. But it's not in any way a requirement. A stunningly gorgeous supermodel can easily be a boring, uninteresting, and completely bland person that holds nobody's attention. Conversely, Adolf Hitler was a horrendously ugly and hateful man inside and out, but there is no denying that he was intensely charismatic.

Beauty is also subjective, and something one person finds attractive may be "meh" to someone else. The fact that many people find a person attractive in no way obligates everyone else to. In the most logical extreme, any ability that forces someone to find a character beautiful or enrapture them in any way through divine or magical means is, at best, morally dubious.

Now I'll get off of that tangent and chime in with my two cents echoing some of the concerns others have as well. +5 to any stat seems like a needlessly overpowered bonus without some other kind of equally crippling penalty to offset it. I also will second Tarina's opinion about niche classes. While I agree that certain classes and abilities SHOULD be restricted to certain groups, making them too restrictive will, in my humble opinion, either alienate other characters that could arguably make a case for taking the PrC, or encourage an overabundance of one particular character archetype rather than a variety of them.

If something could be worked out to mitigate some of these concerns people have, I'd be more open to it, personally.

That being said? While PrCs are nice, in my opinion they aren't absolutely necessary to roleplay a character concept. There doesn't necessarily need to be a prestige class for, say, a samurai, when a fighter-paladin build would suffice just as well with a clever assortment of feats, skills, and proper knowledge of your source material. That isn't to say I'm against them altogether, of course! Just positing that while I understand the reasoning for the class, I think there isn't a strong enough reason to make it a worthwhile addition without introducing too many other problems.

I can certainly mull on it a bit, but like others, I don't really have any solid ideas on how to make this more workable within the existing system and world. I'm just giving my two cents. <3

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:14 pm
by [DM] Grinning Death
My personal, non staff opinion is basically ^

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:24 am
by Anrilor
Ok, so I took in as much of it as I could and decided to poke around our giant list of classes. Of those two really stood out of the divine classes. Morninglord of Lathander and Silverstar.

Morninglord is pretty straightforward, its focusing on undead turning and destruction and enhancing the clerical abilities to do so. https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... _Lathander

Silverstar i did find quite interesting however, and it can be quite powerful in particular the moon's hand abilities , and the uniqueness of the SU abilities. https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... el%C3%BBne

So going back to the drawing board of removing the +5cha that we agree is too powerful, and drop the fey metamorphosis to branch away from another fey class so soonish. So what does that leave. Lips of raptue, tears of evergold, and voice of a siren and heart of passion. In short a moral boosting kiss(five rounds is a bit short would rather it be like 1 round per CL, but I digress) crying holy water, and spell penatration and +2 to all cha skills. So sunite abilities i think we can all agree?

Silverstar has an ability called moons hand, where you gain weapon damage abilities based on selunes favored weapon. So what if we did something similar for the flail (or whip as would be in line of pnp sune and lovitar. (See viewtopic.php?f=446&t=74812 for that conversation if you agree that lovitar and sunite fvs should get whip feats over flail) and something like +1 1d8 fire, +2 1d8 fire, and +3 1d8 fire 2d8 massive crit) called Sash of Passion 1, 2, 3.?

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:13 am
by Endelyon
This has been asked for a few times over the years and seems to be one of the more popularly requested PRCs, so I don't mind adding it. It will probably be designed like this, though any of these elements are subject to change before the final release.
Heartwarder
Sune Firehair encourages beauty, passion, and love wherever they may be found. Heartwarders are aesthetes and hedonists who actively seek out pleasure and beauty in all things and who nurture the creation of beautiful objects.

Most heartwarders are clerics, cleric/bards, favored souls, or cleric/rogues although other class combinations are not unknown. Many are employed as artists, crafters, performers, or instructors.

Requirements:
Alignment: Chaotic Good or Neutral Good
Deity: Sune
Skills: Bluff 3 ranks, Diplomacy 6 ranks
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Exotic (or Bard) Weapon Proficiency
Spellcasting: Ability to cast third level spells

Class Features:
HD: d4
BAB: Low
High Saves: Fort, Will
Weapon and Armor proficiency: None
Skill points: 2 + Int modifier
Class Skills: Bluff, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Heal, Lore (Religion), Perform, Sense Motive, Spellcraft.

Class Abilities:
Level 1: Heart of Passion +1, Spellcasting Progression
Level 2: Lips of Rapture
Level 3: Heart of Passion +2
Level 4: Charisma Increase +1
Level 5: Heart of Passion +3
Level 6: Voice of a Siren
Level 7: Heart of Passion +4
Level 8: Charisma Increase +2
Level 9: Heart of Passion +5
Level 10: Fey Metamorphosis

Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each Heartwarder level, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on). If the character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a Heartwarder, the player must decide to which class to add Heartwarder levels to for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

Heart of Passion: At 1st level, a Heartwarder displays such passionate belief in whatever she does or says that she can sway the thoughts of the most rigid critic. This ability translates into a +1 bonus on all Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus increases by +1 at levels 3, 5, 7, and 9 (for a total of +5).

Lips of Rapture: At 2nd level, a Heartwarder's kiss confers a state of bliss upon its recipient, conferring a +3 morale bonus on attacks, weapon damage, checks, and saves. This ability lasts 10 rounds and can be used twice per day. The downside to a Heartwarder's kiss is that it also dazes the subject for one round once the effect wears off (cannot be resisted, even under the effects of Protection vs Alignment or Mindblank).

Charisma Increase: As the Heartwarder gains levels in this prestige class, she becomes increasingly more persuasive and attractive. The Heartwarder gains a +1 charisma bonus at level 4 and again at level 8 (for a total of +2).

Voice of a Siren: At 6th level, a Heartwarder's voice is so enticing that she weakens the ability of opponents to resist her spells. She gains the Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) feats for free.

Fey Metamorphosis: At 10th level, a Heartwarder is so attuned to the forces of natural beauty that she transcends mortal definitions of beauty and becomes touched with a Fey presence. She gains the Fey Power heritage feat for free (even if she does not meet the requirements). She also gains the low-light vision ability and becomes immune to charm and dominate.
Also I wouldn't expect it too soon, as the server split is my number one priority atm. Shouldn't be too far down the pipeline though since most of the legwork for this one has already been done by Kaedrin.

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:15 am
by Anrilor
*snuggles* thank you and I FULLY understand that the server split comes first, as that provides the most content for everyone. As long as its in the pipeline at some point I am happy!

Thank you again!

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:25 pm
by Hydros
I've been doing some build theorycrafting with this class as it's written here, (Mostly to help Anrilor with options for how she can use it) and I honestly think the Requirements for the class are a bit too steep, specifically the weapon proficiency. The class isn't all that powerful, and while I get it might be a flavor thing due to Sune's favored weapon, I think it severely limits the usability of the class.

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 3:15 pm
by FallingStar
Sunite clerics and Favored Souls can be CN as well, I believe.

Also... Dodge and Mobility? For a cleric/FS build? I'd vote to keep the weapon proficiency (and cleric builds can just take martial first), and either get rid of the Dodge/Mobility requirements or replace them with something more cleric/FS-friendly. Augment Healing is a decent one, even though IIRC it's on an item. Combat Casting could offer some overlap with the Warpriest requirements (which would in turn satisfy the Martial prerequisite for a cleric build.)

...NwN2 puts Sune's favored weapon as a flail, right?

Anyway, that Dodge/Mobility stuff just makes synergy hard to achieve, unless you're going for some weird Heartwarder Shadow Dancer Whirling Dervish concept. :shock:

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 3:34 pm
by FallingStar
Also...
JustAnotherGuy wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:55 pm Finally, I'm against any type of PRC that essentially says, "You must RP this way towards me". Which is essentially what that last feat does. "I'm beautiful, and you must treat me as if I'm one of the most beautiful creatures you've ever seen". To me, it's akin to people rolling CHA to show how attractive their toon is.
You don't have to go along with it. Personally, I'd simply ignore anyone trying to throw crazy high CHA rolls at me without the RP influence and magnetism to back it up. Numbers won't turn me on. Beautiful prose just might. The old adage, Show, don't tell.

But, if someone else wants to play that way, they can knock themselves out.

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 4:01 pm
by Anrilor
FallingStar wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:15 pm Sunite clerics and Favored Souls can be CN as well, I believe.

Also... Dodge and Mobility? For a cleric/FS build? I'd vote to keep the weapon proficiency (and cleric builds can just take martial first), and either get rid of the Dodge/Mobility requirements or replace them with something more cleric/FS-friendly. Augment Healing is a decent one, even though IIRC it's on an item. Combat Casting could offer some overlap with the Warpriest requirements (which would in turn satisfy the Martial prerequisite for a cleric build.)

...NwN2 puts Sune's favored weapon as a flail, right?

Anyway, that Dodge/Mobility stuff just makes synergy hard to achieve, unless you're going for some weird Heartwarder Shadow Dancer Whirling Dervish concept. :shock:
All of the requirements come from the pen and paper varient. The class is less about making you more powerful and more about adding flavor.

Nwn2 put flail as sunes favored weapon because whip didn't exist (devs were lazy it only needed a few things to implement it and they chose not to) now that we have the whip options, having the use of it would be a nice touch.

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 6:58 pm
by FallingStar
Tabletop is too rigid and annoying, we shouldn't just follow blindly. Why keep the same nonsensical requirements when the class is losing a big bonus?

Re: Heartwarder PRC

Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 9:51 pm
by Diamore
This looks like a nice addition to prestige classes except for one thing.

Sune.

This class is a fit for more than one deity and there is no reason to limit it to only Sune. We consistently have added prestige classes with an extremely narrow application to characters when it isn't necessary, especially when it comes to deities.

Others deities that should be available include Sharess (Bast), Sharindlar and Hanali Celanil who all share domains of Lust, Pleasure and Romance and closely aligned portfolios. Some lesser overlaps exist in Lliria, Isis, Oghma and Eilistraee who have some overlapping domains and portfolios as well.

I've likely missed some others too, but I think I have illustrated the need for a broader religion requirement at the very least. A Heartwarder dwarf of Sharindlar and an elven one of Hanali Celanil should be just as possible as one of Sune.