Reserve Feat "trick" for Blade/Deathsinger

[Tanlaus]

Also, to back up K’yon’s point about standard circumstances. I do recall a few devil war events where their warlocks could see through everyone’s stealth. My HiPSter, and everyone like him, who had high 90s to low 100s in H/MS scores was just getting blasted to pieces while hidden and too far away to fight back.

Ended up staying back and using heal kits and res scrolls to play field medic until the warlocks were taken out.

Doesn’t mean my build sucked. Or the PRC sucked. Just that I had to find some other way to be useful in extenuating circumstances.

I’ve never played a blade singer so I’m not saying they don’t need work. I really don’t know enough to have an opinion.

But basing a class performance off an extreme DM event may not be the best idea.

[Hoihe]

Also, to back up K’yon’s point about standard circumstances. I do recall a few devil war events where their warlocks could see through everyone’s stealth. My HiPSter, and everyone like him, who had high 90s to low 100s in H/MS scores was just getting blasted to pieces while hidden and too far away to fight back.

Ended up staying back and using heal kits and res scrolls to play field medic until the warlocks were taken out.

Doesn’t mean my build sucked. Or the PRC sucked. Just that I had to find some other way to be useful in extenuating circumstances.

I’ve never played a blade singer so I’m not saying they don’t need work. I really don’t know enough to have an opinion.

But basing a class performance off an extreme DM event may not be the best idea.

Said friend also found it absolutely torturous to play said character in PvE.



Anyway. Let's consider 4 things.

Dwarven Defender:
Requirements: Lawful, BAB7, Dodge, Toughness, dwarf
Gives:
+4 dodge AC just for getting to lvl 10 without any stat bonuses
Ability to grab +4 dodge AC by giving up mobility 5 times/day
Gets 6 flat DR by level 10
12 HP per level

Has no religious or RP limitations other than "Highly disciplined dwarven warrior."
Its requirements both benefit its ability to tank, and it's only 2 feats

Any build that focuses more on survivability over raw DPS will benefit from dwarven defender without question.

Thief Acrobat
Requirements: Feats: Evasion, Dash, Skill Focus: Tumble or Skill Focus: Escape Artist Skills: Tumble 10 ranks, Escape Artist 10 ranks
Gives:
+2 AC when using I/CE by being level 5
Able to get +4 dodge AC for 2 rounds every minute, unlimited times/rest.
Knockdown immune.

Has 2 useless feats as a requirement, and requires an Evasion-capable build to take.
No RP requirement

Duelist
Requirements: Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon finesse Skills: Parry 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks
Gives:
+1 AC/int/class level
+5 deflection AC at level 7 with full parry investment
1d6/2d6 piercing damage on every strike depending on investment
2d6 piercing damage every 2 rounds
Haste for class level rounds, 5 times/day

No RP requirement
Mobility is a useless feat but can be gained from Swashbuckler. In fact, taking 7 levels of swash makes the only requirement be Dodge and and 2 skills that have strong mechanical value.


Bladesinger:
Requirements Feats: Dodge, Combat Expertise, Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier), Good, Elf/half-elf, Seldarine worshipper, BAB5, arcanist
gives:
1 AC for 2 int mod for 2 class levels
ability to cast in light armour
6/10 caster progression
Ability to spend a round preparing a spell on your sword
Freezing Field, whose DC is abhorrent and causes friendly fire, twice/day. 10 rounds max of -2AB/AC for a DC 25 fort save, maybe 27.
1 bonus feat of: any reserve feat, Blind Fight, Feint, One Weapon, Deadly Defense, Disarm, Improved Critical (Weapon), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.

MASSIVE RP requirement limiting who you can RP with, as falling from Good Alignment will cause (lore-wise) the loss of Bladesong, as falling from the Seldarine's grace will cause the loss of Bladesong too. Bladesingers essentially have the same RP requirement as a paladin, with the same consequences for failure. Although, without DMs to police whether a BS acts Good aligned or accordingly to Seldarine, I guess this is moot. I HAVE seen a bladesinger grinding beside banites, or with undead-summoners, or using blood magic, or shapechanging to a horned devil. Although, probably better this way as DMs can't create a situation of Permastrike or Fall.

Freezing Field is useless. You have the chance to gain something like +2 AC for 10 rounds twice a dice with a DC of 25-27 on fort save - usually the highest save of mobs.

Your bonus feat only allows you to take 2 useful feats - OW and Deadly defence. You can't take fighter feats to improve weapon handling. You can't take any spell foci to improve your spellcasting.

Your mechanical requirements are 3 feats you can't buy with taking a class, and 1 feat that you can get with EK, but if you do, you lose a class slot. Of these feats, only Combat Expertise is really valuable. Unless grabbing Fighter/swash before EK, you'll always spend 4 feats out of your 8 pre-epic feats. Your level 5 wizard bonus feat will inevitably be on Extend Spell. You will also be spending your first feat on Prodigy, leaving you with only 3 pre-epics. 1 will be repaid through BS by taking One Weapon on your bonus feat, 1 will be spent on PrSc, leaving only 2. You'll spend one on ICE or a spell focus. If taking spell focus, you'll have to spend 1 epic feat on Greater.


In short, if I changed from my current 10/22/10/22/8/14 15wiz/swb5/sd3/du7 build to 18/14/10/22/10/10 10wiz/10BS/10EK, I'd lose a ton of AC, gain a bit of AB, gain some Cl, get 9th circle spells, lose a ton of damage. Functionally: Lose the ability to fight without buffing up to high heavens, meaning despite having more Cl, I'd have access to much fewer spells/day to actually do mage things. By gaining 10 cl, I'd become a worse functional mage AND fighter.

By taking 20 levels in gish classes from a class that has 0 gish classes, I'd become a worse functional mage AND fighter. Let that sink in. Not taking a single level of Bladesinger or EK allows you to become a much better bladesinger than one who has 10EK/10BS.


Before rav quit, we tried to think of ways to make at least Bladesinger be as viable at being a bladesinger as my build that doesn't have a single BS/EK level:
Ideas were, or at least make it on par with classes that are less restrictive:

Expand the Bonus feat selection to include fighter feats, make BS qualify for Weapon Specialization or Greater Weapons Focus, allowing taking Epic feats to specialize into actually being viable in melee.

Expand the bonus feat selection to include spell focuses.

Buff Freezing field to be 5 uses/day OR increase its DC to 15 + BS + mod, OR give it the Springboard treatment and include HD/2. Thief acrobat can outright stun enemies every minute with a 30+ DC attack while gaining 4 AC, while BS is limited to 2 uses of a 25-30 DC spell to reduce enemy AB/AC by 2.



This idea of being able to auto-apply a Reserve Feat every round like Hideous Blow would also work well. It'd give BS essentially an extra attack per round.

[Tanlaus]

Like I said, I’m not an expert on Gish classes, so I really can’t comment with any degree of experience. I also do agree that some classes suffer in terms of viability compared to others. So I’m not saying you don’t have or shouldn’t present your points.

I was just commenting that the devil war scenarios made a whole lot of people feel useless and probably wasn’t the strongest example of why any particular class might need to be tweaked a bit.

On a slightly different note, aren’t most Gish builds more focused on using magic to buff then fighting melee?

I know a more that a few wizards who take essentially the same approach when it’s more about grinding through opponents than one or two big fights. Though in their case there’s usually a polymorph involved.

[K'yon Oblodra]

Gonna have to take some more time some time later to go into depth but yea usually gish means primarily buffing yourself not casting too many spells.

I do think Hoihe wants to play and RP it a bit more lore oriented, though I fear you're gimping yourself like that quite a bit.

One thing that's very, apparent is that the weird freeze ability is utterly terrible XD.

Gonna write some more once I find the time.

[chad878262]

20 str / 20 int was a poor choice on stat allocation. Bladesinger wants Max int no matter if you go str or Dex... Saying a prc is shit because someone needs to improve their building or execution is why power creep happens... Perhaps think about what can improve a given build rather than call it crap because the player built it going against the grain of what it's supposed to be. Building a paladin with 20 str and Cha would suck too, after all.

[Hoihe]

20 str / 20 int was a poor choice on stat allocation. Bladesinger wants Max int no matter if you go str or Dex... Saying a prc is (#2) because someone needs to improve their building or execution is why power creep happens... Perhaps think about what can improve a given build rather than call it crap because the player built it going against the grain of what it's supposed to be. Building a paladin with 20 str and Cha would suck too, after all.

First, let me tell you a simple fact:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?314009 This build is ridiculously more powerful with its 10/22/10/22/8/14 stat spread than my friend's 20/14/x/20/x/x spread bladesinger W10/BS10/EK10.

The described bladesinger is:
unable to solo Chaos with either spell or sword
unable to solo yuan-ti with either spell or sword
unable to solo fire giants up till the general with either spell or sword
unable to solo frost giants up till FGK with either spel or sword.

My build?:
Can solo Chaos with ease by going ICE + shield rapier and only memorizing blasting spells and mantles
Can solo yuan-ti with sword alone without a buff. Can solo yuan-ti queen with Mantles and blasting spells with only using the sword to apply EW DoT.
Can solo fire giants without buffs other than GH, Deez's, MI. Can solo the general when using full-buff. Can beat 1v1 fire giants without any buffs.
Can solo frost giants without any buffs if keeping it 1v1. Needs MI if 1v3. Can't solo FGK (yet. Need to figure out best approach to separate them).

Somehow, a build that's 4 classes, 2 of them synergic, the rest completely unrelated to them, is perfectly capable of soloing through epic content while having a RP stat split. Meanwhile, a Bladesinger who only uses synergic classes and also an RP class split, is completely and utterly incapable.

Explain to me the logic behind that. Should my build then be nerfed because it's possible to make it more powerful by taking tiefling as a race and eating a bit of
dump stats? http://nwn2db.com/build/?317263


Furthermore, explain me the logic of balancing for non-RP builds that use dumpstats and cheese tactics that exploit AI by rounding up enemies and dropping clouds on them, which ICly would simply make the enemies walk outside the cloud and wait for it to dissipate or retreat.

To have high int, you must start at 18 int as a bladesinger. That's 6 stat points you could have spent on cha/wis to not have them be dumpstats.

In fact
If you go with 14/12/14/18, you CAN only have 8 wis/8 cha. But I guess we're not an RP server and since that's possible, we should prevent anyone who doesn't dumpstat wis and cha from being able to play their character.

If you go 18 int, you can use your 7 stat ups to get 25 int. Then spend 2 epic feats on getting int to damage at 1.5x ratio, and FOUR ENTIRE EPIC FEATS on just stat ups for access to 32 int on rest. This gives you a massive DC of *drumroll* 22+ spell level! That means your save or die spell of FoD will have a DC of 28. A save or die spell of the 6th circle which is very taxed for buffs and you won't have many preparations of it. Your AB will be the exact same as mine. Your AC will be less even with an int mod of 10. Your damage will be 1d8 + 16 + 5, 22-29. Still less than the damage my build can output at a far higher cost, without EW and HiPS to make the shitty AB somewhat manageable.

You won't have a single epic spell - the only advantage bladesinger has on my build are epic spells. You will be a easy to anger/emotional no personality nobody. Not exactly what Bladesingers are described in lore, no?

Per lore,

Bladesingers are elves who have blended
art, swordplay, and arcane magic into a
harmonious whole. In battle, a bladesinger’s lithe movements and subtle
tactics seem beautiful, belying their
deadly martial efficiency. Bladesingers
have a treasured place in elf society, balancing the joys of art and magic with the skill
of masterful fighting, and so bladesingers are well-respected by other
elves. They usually serve as itinerant
guardians and champions of the elf
community at large rather than tying
themselves to one particular settlement.
Multiclass fighter/wizards can
become bladesingers most easily,
though any elf who can wield a
martial weapon and cast arcane
spells can become a bladesinger.
Bladesinging ranger/wizards, rogue/
wizards, and bladesinger bards are
not unknown.
Most bladesingers work alone, sufficient unto themselves, but in larger
communities they sometimes have the
opportunity to fight together in the
same combat. Bladesingers are normally trained singly by another bladesinger,
and the concept of anything as formalized as a
bladesinger school is an absurd notion to them.

Bladesingers are talented at art, which tends to imply at least a neutral charisma score. They are advisors to settlements, well versed in elven traditions and ways and capable of settling disputes effectively. This implies at least a neutral wisdom score too.

For that, we must look at 16 int. 16 int leaves us with 2 stats points after getting 10 wis/10cha. We'll put it in cha as bladesingers are artists with a strong independent streak, and artists have a strong personality, particularly independent ones.

Furthermore, the only advantage Bladesinger still has over my build is access to epic spells. Let's grab 2 - Greater Ruin as a spell to tie to our sword, and Epic Call Lightning Storm since Bladesingers are described as being able to take on extreme odds "sufficient unto themselves", and Epic Call Lightning Storm is capable of wiping out smaller armies of orcs with ease, and can be seen as a nod to Aerdrie Faenya - Goddess of Wind and storms.

Suddenly, our Bladesinger has 25 int. At 25 int, with +3 int helm our Bladesinger will have a int mod of 9. Which gives 13 + 5 + 1d8 => 19-26, avg 23.5 damage per hit while having 28 AB before any buffs - same as my build. And also only 20 + sl as its DC. 3 pts higher than my build, while also being forced to spend all its spells on buffing up.

Between the low melee damage compared to the low AB, the need to fully buff up before doing anything and still having less AC than my build, this Bladesinger is still weaker than a class combination that has no reason for working so well. There's Song of Celerity - but it's completely useless except for the first strike of a fight as you can't really use it effectively once in combat.


While in lore, Bladesingers can

Song of Celerity (Su): Starting at 6th level, when wielding a
longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other) and
using the full attack action, the bladesinger can cast one bladesinger spell (or arcane spell with a casting time of 1 action or
less) each round as a free action.

Now, it is true in lore Bladesingers don't get wizard/sorc/bard progression while taking their levels, instead progressing in a specialized spellbook that has 1-4 spell levels and limited spell list. However, in lore, they also get 3 bonus feats. This is a place where our and lore bladesinger are... roughly equal. Probably mostly due to inability to create new spellbooks in NWN2.





However - notice Song of Celerity. If we therefore allowed Reserve Feats at least to be casted every round when a Bladesinger makes their first sword strike, we'd at least be able to allow it to approach how it's supposed to be in lore.

Also, as a side note: Bladesingers are supposed to have what is essentially "Rapid shot" for melee - gain +1 attack at cost of -2ab for all attacks.

[Ewe]

I agree with Chad, Bladesinger is super strong. With the standard 6 wiz / 10 ek / 10 bs / 4 bm, you achieve 25bab and 30cl. With theoretical 51 ac and 46 ab with expertise and a pure strength route.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?287204


If you're not min/maxing and making an "rp buid" why do you expect to still be able to solo the hardest content in the game which is designed for parties in the first place?

[chad878262]

My bladesinger solo'd all of those bosses you listed...everything but the White Dragon. You argue a whole bunch of crap in your thread, but if BG is an "RP" server than soloing should not be required or even desirable. Sure, you can dump CHA and WIS to increase your other stats and end up with 14 STR and DEX, 12 CON, 32 INT to maximize AC, damage and spell DC, but you do not HAVE to do so...

No the DCs will not be as high as a DC caster, of course they won't, but they will only be missing spell focus line and DCs from PRCs. They are not likely to 'one-shot' a boss with FoD. However, cloud based spells with DCs that high are more likely over time to do some SERIOUS hurt to mobs and bosses. Cloud Kill, Wall of Fire, Acid Cloud. At least one will work quite well on each of the bosses you listed. Grease is also a great spell to help keep them in your cloud(s) until you run up and hit them with a (SoC) epic greater ruin.

Sorry, but your arguments are BS Hoihe. I played a Bladesinger to 30 and a Deathsinger to 29 and they were both quite capable of solo play and had some solid RP with EDE and in the UD with Invoker, Lisa, et. al. You cannot have it ALL in any build and if you are happy with yours, great! However, stating Bladesinger sucks because you have one friend that made a poor build is not evidence that you can't make a solid Bladesinger either Min/Maxed or for party play. Christ, just lowering your friends STR to 16 instead of 20 would allow the INT to get to at least 24, 28 after Fox Cunning and still be at 20 STR. While personally I would drop to 14 STR so you could get 30 INT for max AC bonus while getting damage (combat expertise) and decent DC for clouds.

Do what you want and your friend should do what he/she wants, but your arguments are simply wrong. I know this because I played both extensively both in testing for QC and with my own PCs.

[Hoihe]

I agree with Chad, Bladesinger is super strong. With the standard 6 wiz / 10 ek / 10 bs / 4 bm, you achieve 25bab and 30cl. With theoretical 51 ac and 46 ab with expertise and a pure strength route.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?287204


If you're not min/maxing and making an "rp buid" why do you expect to still be able to solo the hardest content in the game which is designed for parties in the first place?

A Bladesinger who takes a Blood Mage level should have their Bladesinger abilities turned off. Bladesingers can and will fall if they act in ways unbecoming of a champion of Seldarine and Good.

My bladesinger solo'd all of those bosses you listed...everything but the White Dragon. You argue a whole bunch of crap in your thread, but if BG is an "RP" server than soloing should not be required or even desirable. Sure, you can dump CHA and WIS to increase your other stats and end up with 14 STR and DEX, 12 CON, 32 INT to maximize AC, damage and spell DC, but you do not HAVE to do so...

No the DCs will not be as high as a DC caster, of course they won't, but they will only be missing spell focus line and DCs from PRCs. They are not likely to 'one-shot' a boss with FoD. However, cloud based spells with DCs that high are more likely over time to do some SERIOUS hurt to mobs and bosses. Cloud Kill, Wall of Fire, Acid Cloud. At least one will work quite well on each of the bosses you listed. Grease is also a great spell to help keep them in your cloud(s) until you run up and hit them with a (SoC) epic greater ruin.

Sorry, but your arguments are BS Hoihe. I played a Bladesinger to 30 and a Deathsinger to 29 and they were both quite capable of solo play and had some solid RP with EDE and in the UD with Invoker, Lisa, et. al. You cannot have it ALL in any build and if you are happy with yours, great! However, stating Bladesinger sucks because you have one friend that made a poor build is not evidence that you can't make a solid Bladesinger either Min/Maxed or for party play. Christ, just lowering your friends STR to 16 instead of 20 would allow the INT to get to at least 24, 28 after Fox Cunning and still be at 20 STR. While personally I would drop to 14 STR so you could get 30 INT for max AC bonus while getting damage (combat expertise) and decent DC for clouds.

Do what you want and your friend should do what he/she wants, but your arguments are simply wrong. I know this because I played both extensively both in testing for QC and with my own PCs.

Yay for

"This class is able to, once you wasted 18+ spells on reaching a less effective state than a character that spends maybe 2-3 spells to reach a better state, to run around in an OOC manner to round up mobs and drop cloud spells on them, then wait 3 minutes for everything to die before repeating."

Until you play Bladesinger as it's intended to be - actively using combat spells in a way that makes IC sense where the enemies have self-preservation instincts and would relocate from being trapped in clouds. The Grease would only marginally slow them down. a DC of 21 is practically worthless at stopping enemies from getting away from a cloud if they try.



Can a Bladesinger do it as I do? Keep a spellbook almost purely of debuffs, disablers, AoE blasts and single target blasts, except for mirror image, deez, spell mantles and go through Yuan-ti temple solo?

A Bladesinger should be able to facetank the yuan-ti queen with ICE/OneWeap/Athkatlan/MI/deez's and spell mantles and then blast her to ashes.

[Ewe]

Well Blood Magus isn't disallowed on the server for use with Bladesinger and isn't evil only prc, and it's a common choice for Bladesingers wishing to be dispel immune.

[Hoihe]

Well Blood Magus isn't disallowed on the server for use with Bladesinger and isn't evil only prc, and it's a common choice for Bladesingers wishing to be dispel immune.

Just because you can play a Paladin of Torm while being a member of the Zhentarim, it doesn't mean you should. Likewise you can play a Bladesinger with Blood Magus who uses devil form to shapechange, doesn't mean you should.

[Ewe]

I don't know I think anything by the rules is fair game, why else wouldn't they make BM and BS not allowed to be taken together like other PRC restrictions?

[Druchii]

What the hell is "gish"?

[Ewe]

Gish is basically any caster type build who self buffs to the point of being a melee power house. It's a typical word used in D&D and NWN.

[Hoihe]

Gish is basically any caster type build who self buffs to the point of being a melee power house. It's a typical word used in D&D and NWN.

And pretty much kills the reason someone would use a spellblade.

In NWN2 you can perfectly replicate being a gish and more by using wands and UMD. The only thing it saves is gold.

Therefore, if playing a magic + melee combat, you want the ability to actively engage with control/debuff/damage/kill spells mid-combat to actually justify playing your build.

I don't know I think anything by the rules is fair game, why else wouldn't they make BM and BS not allowed to be taken together like other PRC restrictions?

As far I know, we have no rules against being a Blackguard and actively helping paladins. Nor the opposite. Despite lore forbidding such.