Richard's Big Bulk Baldur's Gate Suggestion Thread

[Snarfy]

On the topic of HiPS, and stealth in general
There is no doubt that HiPS is stupidly over-powered. Although that doesn't necessarily stem from the feat, but rather ties into the absurdly high ranks that can be achieved in the Hide and Move Silently skills. I have seen characters with over 90 in both skills, which is a cause for concern, since getting Spot and Listen to equivalent levels isn't nearly as easy.

... I legit stopped reading right here. Sorry, but this is just not the case.

[Planehopper]

I can't decide if my warnings breathe life into the toxicity, or if I am just Ms Cleo with the psychic connection.

I would really rather not have this whole mess become circular. I'd really rather not have to lock a thread because of hyperbole leading to frustrated feelings, and flippancy leading to folks being rubbed the wrong way.

Try to stick with your opinions directly. I would almost guarantee you that none of these changes will be made on a whim. Hips isnt something to adjust from a flight of fancy. RCR changes are an admin decision. Arguing about it until you dislike one another isnt going to change anything.

[Snarfy]

I'd really rather not have to lock a thread because of hyperbole leading to frustrated feelings, and flippancy leading to folks being rubbed the wrong way.

My bad! If I sound frustrated or flippant(I probably do!), it's likely only a frustration from having to read repeated non-factual statements made about mechanics by players who either haven't taken the time to learn, or asked enough questions to educate themselves. It's more exhaustion than frustration, to be honest... If I start to make suggestions about removing all circle 5 and higher wizard spells, or taking away armor for melee types, or auto-fugue'ing players for RP'ing using the French or Japanese languages in RP, then you'll know I'm getting frustrated

[Druchii]

On the subject of HiPS, coming from someone who has played and DMed PW's since NWN1 first came out; if you leave your PvP maximally open to unfairness your community will get more and more toxic on the issue. There will be people who will start asking OOC in Discord or Nexus about what other player's characters are built like. There is just more salt in general. NWN is an unfair game in general that favours certain classes over others, but outside of HiPS or being a spellcaster, I don't think you can realistically win a PvP outside of niche builds like epic smite Paladins, maybe. Admittedly, I only heavily played PvP arena severs on NWN1. The nature of d20 games is in general luck, but there are plenty class, statistic and gear choices to make luck fairly irrelevant especially in PvP.

My main is a HiPSer and PvE feels like cheating the game engine tbh. I enjoy because the numbers are big and stupid and I'm basically immune to most damage but it makes me feel bad for the players I'm playing with, who have great RP, with better character gravitas and much better gear and they have to spend 2 minutes after each encounter healing up from 2HP as if it was a close thing while I'm able to run around like a toddler on meth smacking anything dead before it can reach me. It's just weird. We all play games. We all know this ability wouldn't be accepted as balanced in any other game.

The only intellectually honest defence I have for HiPS on my character is "Everyone has it so I want it too". It's not a good defence, but it's the only one I've got really.

Sorry quick throw-back as I wanted to say this tl'dr - I enjoy RP'ing the shadow-dancer aspects of HiPs and do so on my Assassin - I also treat his spells (that work like a sorc) as an innate ability but weak compared to true sorcs and shadowmancers. I accept its not perfect or entirely lore-friendly, but I just cannot explain HiPs any other way than Shadow-Dancing. As people probably know by now, I like to try and justify anything on my PC logically for my own enjoyment and others. It actually helped my character complete a DM event that was run for me - I didnt ask for it in anyway, just had the idea, and it was a lot of fun.

HiPs has an explanation as to how it works if you invest time and energy into the reasoning - if you took it just because but otherwise find its just a mechanical gimmick thats disappointing but I get the reason. However, now you cannot say that I've not given you a way to justify it

I think we've all been frustrated at times when stealth lets you just be 'invisible' to people that like (I swear I'll not de-rail this).. follow you through a door into an empty room and are just invisible even without HiPs and then don't even RP as a courtesy to a player to let them know OOC another is there or where they're hiding each player does and deals differently but I encourage you to lean into the shadows aspect of HiPs, treating it like a supernatural ability. Stealth is the issue perhaps more than HiPs - stealth was created for PvE, never for RP. That is why you think its gaming the engine, when thats the whole point. Its for going up against NPCs - multiplayer, especially competitive, was not the primary focus of NWN's construction. At least I do not feel it is. Maybe it was and it's just imperfect as most things.

Just my thoughts.

[Theodore01]

Spellwapper NPC is one of the best additions on the server IMO. ....
A similar way to swap feats or skills (though skills sounds hard) would honestly be cool, too (with a similar once-per-month cooldown), and I think would reduce the amount of people needing to do RCRs.

Feat swapping will open a new can of worms. How to prevent people to swap away feats that were required for other feats/classes at first hand ?
Or as an example take steadfast, which is very nice to have during the leveleing, but no longer needed once you got to lv30 and death does no longer matter at all.

[Steve]

Before the RCR, and before the RCR gave a gradual percentage return limit, I used to just delete Characters from my Vault. I probably deleted half-a-million XP worth of PCs back then.

And since the RCR, from its inception until now, I've probably "lost" a cool million in XP, if not more. I can't deny it—there is something there that literally hurts inside thinking of all those RL hours lost because I goofed on a Feat or a Requirement or just...lost interest in the PC because Zanniej wouldn't play with me anymore!

What is so utterly important for BGTSCC is that Players, new and old, keep alive the RP through all the Character Levels and all the CRs of the Server. And to do that, again literally, one has to BE in those Areas, adventuring, gaining experience, etc.... and sometimes that just requires doing it all again from scratch (and yes, what I'm implying is that RCRing indirectly repopulates Areas of the Server).

What would make this EVEN better for the overall experience of BGTSCC is that grinding wasn't really the most preferred solution, in order to gain experience, or to say it better, to HAVE experience(s), that is, in terms of RP and storybuilding and adventures that take place regardless of Level, and exist for EVERYONE whether they are playing at Level 1 or Level 30.

Blah, blah...soapbox Steve at your service.

If the paradigm of BGTSCC is to minimize power-building, then the 3b20 should stay. Because I'm not even a super Builder yet I know one can make a superior mechanical build if the rule changed to 3b30.

And yes, Snarf-0 et al, if you are building a Sneak and can't take 2 rounds of attacks between HiPSing, you're doing it wrong. It means you've built for extreme sneak damage or extreme stealth advantage, and THAT should not also mean you get extreme DEFENSE at the same time. Sacrifice some stealth advantage in the build to up your defense, or lessen instant pwn SA with more defense or options for escape.

But I do applaud Snarfy for suggesting that a HiPSer is actually in a Party...cause usually it is a debate over whether a Rogue/HiPSer can survive by themselves, being the sneaky unfriendly bastards they are.

[Hoihe]

I'm with Snarfy -

People who clamor for nerfing a certain mechanic should first play a character without muled gear or gifted gear or gold from level 1 to 30 that focuses on said mechanic.

I've had a rogue20/SD5/DS5 build for 2 years as my main on this server. It was weaker than the ideal rogue build that used assassin rather than my combo, but it was definitely not a weak "RP build."

Soloplay with that build essentially boiled down to: find enemy who is alone, sneak up on, stab, run away, hide, repeat. Staying besides that enemy for even the presently minimal cooldown meant taking damage, and often - lots of it.

Since then, the devs recognized the ridiculousness of that playstyle and made stealth gear that also provides AC easier to get - it used to be, back when I mained rogue, that decent stealth-gear was only possible if you were friends with someone who was quitting the server and gave you their grandfathered gear. Much of those epic grandfathered items are now available for 50-100K. Which is awesome. Which means people can finally play rogue without starring in the Benny Hill show. Blinding strike is likewise a quality of life improvement.

Now, you might say "But what about party play?" Here's the deal: if you want to participate in level appropriate party play, you need to be able to win an 1 vs 1 fight with a generic mob in the area without help.

For one, movement is janky and formations are difficult to maintain even if you put in the effort - meaning the rogue will wind up having to HiPS dance around mobs 1v1 while the rest are trying to protect the mage.

For two, flanking is janky and sometimes even when standing directly behind the enemy, the game won't trigger sneak attacks - this is particularly true for large mobs - forcing the rogue to HiPS and only deliver first flurry as sneak attack.


The power of HiPS lies in its ability to give you a few seconds to breathe. A HiPSer, if surrounded by a killsquad in a DM event can disengage with HiPS, dimension door away with a wand, run for the hills and heal up. Dimension dooring while fighting can make you mess it up, especially if panicking. It also enables you to drop aggro from mobs to redirect it to someone tankier.

Finally, it has an exploitative power - you can time HiPS just right to cancel an incoming spell. Now, if you can fix this without making playing a HiPS based character painful - awesome. However, it's not a guaranteed dodge and does take some effort/skill to pull off, especially consistently.


We've also already gated HiPS so only those who should have it, have it - meaning low HP medium BAB assassins, very high dex shadowdancers, master rangers and that's it. You cannot just add HiPS to your build without sacrificing Cl/AB/HP or stat spread.

Mages that grab HiPS have far less Cl than if they didn't (assassin), or far fewer spells and lower DC (SD)

Str-fighters who grab HiPS either lose a lot of feats and AB and HP (assassin), or deal far less damage and have less AB (SD)

Dex-fighters can pull it off well, but dex builds often have less AB and damage than their strength opposites and far less carry weight so it's justified (dervishes, rangers). It synergises very well with swashbuckler/duelist style builds, but they don't have any fighter feats and rely on crits debuffing the enemy to win while being very tanky.


The only "OP" use of HiPS is to make int-based melee-focused gishes playable by using the spell-dodge feature/exploit.



Therefore, there is no need to make HiPS take more than its current cooldown.

[Druchii]

Before the RCR, and before the RCR gave a gradual percentage return limit, I used to just delete Characters from my Vault. I probably deleted half-a-million XP worth of PCs back then.

And since the RCR, from its inception until now, I've probably "lost" a cool million in XP, if not more. I can't deny it—there is something there that literally hurts inside thinking of all those RL hours lost because I goofed on a Feat or a Requirement or just...lost interest in the PC because Zanniej wouldn't play with me anymore!

What is so utterly important for BGTSCC is that Players, new and old, keep alive the RP through all the Character Levels and all the CRs of the Server. And to do that, again literally, one has to BE in those Areas, adventuring, gaining experience, etc.... and sometimes that just requires doing it all again from scratch (and yes, what I'm implying is that RCRing indirectly repopulates Areas of the Server).

What would make this EVEN better for the overall experience of BGTSCC is that grinding wasn't really the most preferred solution, in order to gain experience, or to say it better, to HAVE experience(s), that is, in terms of RP and storybuilding and adventures that take place regardless of Level, and exist for EVERYONE whether they are playing at Level 1 or Level 30.

Blah, blah...soapbox Steve at your service.

If the paradigm of BGTSCC is to minimize power-building, then the 3b20 should stay. Because I'm not even a super Builder yet I know one can make a superior mechanical build if the rule changed to 3b30.

And yes, Snarf-0 et al, if you are building a Sneak and can't take 2 rounds of attacks between HiPSing, you're doing it wrong. It means you've built for extreme sneak damage or extreme stealth advantage, and THAT should not also mean you get extreme DEFENSE at the same time. Sacrifice some stealth advantage in the build to up your defense, or lessen instant pwn SA with more defense or options for escape.

But I do applaud Snarfy for suggesting that a HiPSer is actually in a Party...cause usually it is a debate over whether a Rogue/HiPSer can survive by themselves, being the sneaky bastards they are.

Fair point gents and I admit I was talking about tackling end-game areas solo, and so perhaps my own view is skewed and drifted into powerbuilding.

Also 3by20 is common on many RP servers for a reason, its a quick and easy solution thats fairly effective at stopping the most cheesed of builds. 3by30 is not.

Also surviving spells in open areas makes two rounds scarier than say, melee. Rogues are not the best with their saves though I've geared as best I can to mitigate. Easier with a buffer sure.

I guess you guys are right and as I think I said, I would still try it before choosing to RCR to something more competent PvE/PvP wise with HiPs. Maybe I would find it not so bad and not worth the set-back in levels, but when I first thought about it my brain automatically thought of an alternative to recover that lost 'power' - suppose its on me.

12 seconds won't necessarily make a world of difference if you play smart, but as power builders go, I never really thought HiPsters were where it was at. Don't get me wrong I'd say they were more mid-tier personally, but same as Steve I am not an expert builder, esp on NWN2. Should've seen my face when I realised that Assassins AND Shadowdancers had HiPs: "Nani ?!?!"

[Snarfy]

Sorry quick throw-back as I wanted to say this tl'dr - I enjoy RP'ing the shadow-dancer aspects of HiPs and do so on my Assassin - I also treat his spells (that work like a sorc) as an innate ability but weak compared to true sorcs and shadowmancers. I accept its not perfect or entirely lore-friendly, but I just cannot explain HiPs any other way than Shadow-Dancing. As people probably know by now, I like to try and justify anything on my PC logically for my own enjoyment and others. It actually helped my character complete a DM event that was run for me - I didnt ask for it in anyway, just had the idea, and it was a lot of fun.

HiPs has an explanation as to how it works if you invest time and energy into the reasoning - if you took it just because but otherwise find its just a mechanical gimmick thats disappointing but I get the reason. However, now you cannot say that I've not given you a way to justify it

I think we've all been frustrated at times when stealth lets you just be 'invisible' to people that like (I swear I'll not de-rail this).. follow you through a door into an empty room and are just invisible even without HiPs and then don't even RP as a courtesy to a player to let them know OOC another is there or where they're hiding each player does and deals differently but I encourage you to lean into the shadows aspect of HiPs, treating it like a supernatural ability. Stealth is the issue perhaps more than HiPs - stealth was created for PvE, never for RP. That is why you think its gaming the engine, when thats the whole point. Its for going up against NPCs - multiplayer, especially competitive, was not the primary focus of NWN's construction. At least I do not feel it is. Maybe it was and it's just imperfect as most things.

Just my thoughts.

*insert applause here* ... I appreciate your thoughts.

Anyone, regardless of what class they play, is able to exploit the engine, and we probably all do it, to varying degrees... (bandaging your wounds mid-battle, anyone? Yeah, me too). Being IC'ly responsible about how and when one chooses to exploit the engine is probably more the issue here than anything else.

And since the RCR, from its inception until now, I've probably "lost" a cool million in XP, if not more. I can't deny it—there is something there that literally hurts inside thinking of all those RL hours lost because I goofed on a Feat or a Requirement or just...lost interest in the PC because Zanniej wouldn't play with me anymore!

Yeah, Zanniej... he can be a real inconsiderate little gremlin amazingly awesome guy that way.

What would make this EVEN better for the overall experience of BGTSCC is that grinding wasn't really the most preferred solution, in order to gain experience, or to say it better, to HAVE experience(s), that is, in terms of RP and storybuilding and adventures that take place regardless of Level, and exist for EVERYONE whether they are playing at Level 1 or Level 30.

Blah, blah...soapbox Steve at your service.

Soapbox Steve for president! *ducks*

And yes, Snarf-0 et al, if you are building a Sneak and can't take 2 rounds of attacks between HiPSing, you're doing it wrong. It means you've built for extreme sneak damage or extreme stealth advantage, and THAT should not also mean you get extreme DEFENSE at the same time. Sacrifice some stealth advantage in the build to up your defense, or lessen instant pwn SA with more defense or options for escape.

But I do applaud Snarfy for suggesting that a HiPSer is actually in a Party...cause usually it is a debate over whether a Rogue/HiPSer can survive by themselves, being the sneaky bastards they are.

They can't... but I'm probably only saying this because there's still numerous zones I have never seen on my HiPS'er, because OOC'ly I know he will die horribly, and IC'ly because he also knows that he will die horribly. Wait, are you saying a sneak can be built with defense in mind? HERESY. I'm filing for your impeachment, sir.

[Hoihe]

Sorry quick throw-back as I wanted to say this tl'dr - I enjoy RP'ing the shadow-dancer aspects of HiPs and do so on my Assassin - I also treat his spells (that work like a sorc) as an innate ability but weak compared to true sorcs and shadowmancers. I accept its not perfect or entirely lore-friendly, but I just cannot explain HiPs any other way than Shadow-Dancing. As people probably know by now, I like to try and justify anything on my PC logically for my own enjoyment and others. It actually helped my character complete a DM event that was run for me - I didnt ask for it in anyway, just had the idea, and it was a lot of fun.

HiPs has an explanation as to how it works if you invest time and energy into the reasoning - if you took it just because but otherwise find its just a mechanical gimmick thats disappointing but I get the reason. However, now you cannot say that I've not given you a way to justify it

I think we've all been frustrated at times when stealth lets you just be 'invisible' to people that like (I swear I'll not de-rail this).. follow you through a door into an empty room and are just invisible even without HiPs and then don't even RP as a courtesy to a player to let them know OOC another is there or where they're hiding each player does and deals differently but I encourage you to lean into the shadows aspect of HiPs, treating it like a supernatural ability. Stealth is the issue perhaps more than HiPs - stealth was created for PvE, never for RP. That is why you think its gaming the engine, when thats the whole point. Its for going up against NPCs - multiplayer, especially competitive, was not the primary focus of NWN's construction. At least I do not feel it is. Maybe it was and it's just imperfect as most things.

Just my thoughts.

*insert applause here* ... I appreciate your thoughts.

Anyone, regardless of what class they play, is able to exploit the engine, and we probably all do it, to varying degrees... (bandaging your wounds mid-battle, anyone? Yeah, me too). Being IC'ly responsible about how and when one chooses to exploit the engine is probably more the issue here than anything else.

And since the RCR, from its inception until now, I've probably "lost" a cool million in XP, if not more. I can't deny it—there is something there that literally hurts inside thinking of all those RL hours lost because I goofed on a Feat or a Requirement or just...lost interest in the PC because Zanniej wouldn't play with me anymore!

Yeah, Zanniej... he can be a real inconsiderate little gremlin amazingly awesome guy that way.

What would make this EVEN better for the overall experience of BGTSCC is that grinding wasn't really the most preferred solution, in order to gain experience, or to say it better, to HAVE experience(s), that is, in terms of RP and storybuilding and adventures that take place regardless of Level, and exist for EVERYONE whether they are playing at Level 1 or Level 30.

Blah, blah...soapbox Steve at your service.

Soapbox Steve for president! *ducks*

And yes, Snarf-0 et al, if you are building a Sneak and can't take 2 rounds of attacks between HiPSing, you're doing it wrong. It means you've built for extreme sneak damage or extreme stealth advantage, and THAT should not also mean you get extreme DEFENSE at the same time. Sacrifice some stealth advantage in the build to up your defense, or lessen instant pwn SA with more defense or options for escape.

But I do applaud Snarfy for suggesting that a HiPSer is actually in a Party...cause usually it is a debate over whether a Rogue/HiPSer can survive by themselves, being the sneaky bastards they are.

They can't... but I'm probably only saying this because there's still numerous zones I have never seen on my HiPS'er, because OOC'ly I know he will die horribly, and IC'ly because he also knows that he will die horribly. Wait, are you saying a sneak can be built with defense in mind? HERESY. I'm filing for your impeachment, sir.

Only thing making tanky rogues possible is making it possible to get decent stealth gear that's not grandfathered. However, you still need to nearly max out on stealth gear if you want to avoid getting spotted in high level areas or DM events.

There's been cases of 90 H/MS people being spotted within seconds. And then melted.

[Snarfy]

There's been cases of 90 H/MS people being spotted within seconds. And then melted.

Yup. Hide/MS scores are irrelevant VS some mobs/builds. Want to deal with a HiPS'er? Roll up a druid, ranger, bard, or cleric and invest in detection, or even a mage without detection, and with proper spell selection... then pwn/melt them in a heartbeat. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Rain]

I won't really touch on alot of these topics for obvious reasons but...

In the topic of the 3by20 rule I will speak from a power-builders perspective...

Summary:
Currently how to server is now with alot of restrictions to gaining certain skills and feats tied behind steep PRC investments or base class dips, I think the server is in a spot it should be. There is of course people who play this game for different reasons... Some enjoy the mechanics... Some enjoy the RP... Some enjoy the PVP... Some enjoy all of thee above equally. With all the current balance the server has right now it gives everyone who enjoy different aspects of the game to play what they want rather that be a chosen power-built favored soul or a person who has dedicated their life and soul to a lvl 30 commoner. There is something for everyone! But even with this being said, do I still think there is room for improvement? Yes I think so... Because i'm sure we can all agree that some classes are severely under-used then others and it's not because of the premise or the RP of the class (Hell I would love to play a Storm Lord, or a Dragon Disciple, or a Breach Gnome or a Monk of the Long Death or a Thayan Knight) but it's because the PRC that you might think is cool in (RP) may be horrible to build mechanically or have no fun elements like they do in PnP or before a pre-nerf or just straight up be locked behind a NWN2 stipulation that doesn't exist anywhere else for the sake of balance... There are alot of classes I would like to play if they were good or offered even a fraction of what other classes offer mechanically but as ive learned this server focuses more on nerfing classes and abilities to fit a certain vision then allowing these classes to shine in their own light to make them much easier to fit into a build you feel comfortable both RPing and PVEing with rather then thinking of how they would effect PVP (which is apparently the large minority given the many opinions of PVP vs PVE topics).

Cause and Effect:
So here is the thing right. I will just be up-front and straight forward to make it clear of what and who I am speaking for and against. I myself am a Power-builder I have been playing on this server since 2017 and before this have been playing on NWN1 since 2012. In many other servers a similar 3b20 rule exist on them as well and for good reason. To some a small change in class placement structure or skill point allocation here and there instead of here and now might seem like it's a minor change. But small changes like that is all it takes from making a power-builders wet dream from not being able to fit 4 classes together to being able to do it WITHOUT AN ISSUE. If it was not evident enough there is already a huge difference in player v server knowledge and power.

For example: The white dragon is the most powerful monster in BG as it stands. Usually it takes a group of seasoned warriors and battle ready spellcasters to take him down and for damn sure you going to spending some gold on consumables for the fight. I know a group just the other day took on the task of facing the great white and I congratulate them on their victory! viewtopic.php?f=16&t=37160&start=315

This is what killing bosses and calling expeditions to take on powerful foes SHOULD be like. It should be a test of chemistry, team-work, allegiances and a use of resources.

Now please don't take this as me boasting or anything i'm just trying to make a point... This same white dragon that as you can see was challenged by that large group of players me and my friend did with just 2 of us... viewtopic.php?f=17&t=72194

Now let that sink in...

Now what if I told you that if this 3by20 rule was not in place and instead was replaced with a 3by30 rule I could make a build that doesn't even need a partner in general to do this exact same thing... and i'm not joking about that... If there was no rule on class placement like there is now that is all it takes from making builds at the very least need a PARTNER to take on the hardest boss in the game. To doing it by yourself... No need for anyone else to help you at all...

Do I think it would be cool to do this? ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY I do!

Is it healthy for the server?

You tell me...

Hidden: show

[chad878262]

just to add a few points, I'm not going to copy/paste previous comments but a few glaring misconceptions in this thread:

1. That you can build a 'defensive' rogue... You can TRY to do so, but no matter what you will never *NEVER* get the fortitude and will saving throws that fighter builds can reach or that divine and arcane gishes can buff up to. Your saving throws will NEVER be good enough to consistently survive against caster mobs. The best defense for a rogue is a good offense, as in kill the caster mob in the first flurry and hope you can get back in to the shadows before another one spawns or see's you. I won't argue AC because there are a few ways to build a rogue type that can actually reach 50+ AC while still being able to land hits. However, considering getting a rogue to have AB above 36 without buffs that are easy to dispel is basically impossible without making some truly awful decisions, only having HiPS once every 12 seconds would SUCK. Even if you had enough AC and just went to area's with no spell casters you basically would watch two rounds of misses before you could attack from HiPS again so you could land hits.

2. That 3b20 being removed wouldn't be a major change. Go search on NWN2db for a while and find all the builds that take Fighter 1 in epics for an extra epic feat (Epic Prowess, usually). Or Consider Monk to 20, then Divine Champion to 30, or any of the other exploitable classes with feats that can be any epic feat. 3b20 is semi-unique and introduces interesting build challenges to work around. Removing it would change the dynamic of the server pretty significantly which imo would be sad.

3. 100% RCR is one of those things I think folks should be careful what they wish for. Consistency of RP is a thing and is hard to maintain when players decide they don't like their build, but they like the character and RP. "Hey Joe, looks like you're wearing a new suit of Mithril Chain, what happened to the Adamantine Plate?" . . . Joe: "OOC: M@A wasn't working for me man, now he's a Barbarian"

[Roofshadow]

Yeah, I had to spend over 1 million gold on gear before my stealth got high enough where I could then be BUFFED with a camouflage spell so that a sentient gust of wind could stop kicking my teeth in. A baseline 70 hide wasn't enough to avoid a very normal air elemental in a normal higher level zone.

My very first character, my main, is a rogue with HIPS, and it was awful to level her brand new to the server. Even in groups, it felt like I was just tagging along where my sole contribution was picking locks that everyone can and did just smash anyway, or dismantling traps that don't even phase thick classes, because my ability to do damage was extremely limited. Once I got HIPS, the damage slowly got viable, because, honestly, positioning isn't even a sure thing. There's too many times where I've been sitting behind something doing 0 sneak attacks because for some reason it didn't register me as flanking. HIPS at least makes it reliable.

Things get easier with potions, scrolls, wands, and epic feats, but I'm still made of a wet paper bag, even with decent gear. I'd never change her class because it fits her best, but man, I've considered RCRing a few times when it's felt like I have to jump through so many hoops to stay viable as I've leveled up. Between enemies in my level range spotting me and/or sniffing me out in spite of most of my gear having +4 hide/move silently, and half of the enemy types being immune to crits/sneak attacks? It can be pretty rough already, but PVE would be hell without HIPS.

As for PVP... I'm generally a PVPer who enjoys PVP, but if PVP games have a hard time with balancing, a PVE RPG with 30+ classes and their combinations turned into a multiplayer game with PVP added really isn't going to get anything resembling real balance. I haven't encountered much PVP here, I've only actually been toggled hostile once in the half year or so I've been here (minus some for-fun dueling with friends), so it hasn't really seemed like a big thing. Some people will swing their power-build egos as an excuse to throw weight around in RP, but that's not an issue unique to sneak builds.

[Steve]

I don't agree, Chad. You can build a defensive Rogue...but when I read your response, it is seemingly a SOLOING rogue, that you say suffers. That may be true, and many other Builds suffer when soloing as well, and currently. But a HiPSing Rogue shouldn't be seen, and the mobs should be after the Group's tank, and while distracted, the Rogue DOES take out the spellcaster of the mob group, or humbles the regular mobs while they are focused on the tank.

Or, the HiPSing Rogue just stays hidden...while the melee Characters do their job, and the Rogue waits for their moment to shine, being the Skill Monkey.

So, if 6 seconds is current and fine, but 12 seconds is too much to bear, then how about 9 seconds?!?