Chad's analysis as a returning player

[Rhifox]

I will say that I can understand the frustrations voiced by some players over inflated saving throws. There definitely APPEARS to be a massive leap when you get the CR15 + areas in terms of stopping certain things from working. I think that's ok to a point, but also feel there should be more of a puzzle in figuring out weaknesses of certain enemies. Just pumping saves, granting DR and massive HP pools to enemies isn't really an increase in difficulty, it is actually more of an encouragement toward certain builds that handle such things with ease. There are other, more creative ways to ensure difficulty of areas which would actually encourage party play while providing for difficulty to those builds that today handle the more 'standard' mobs with ease since they do enough damage to cut through DR and down most mobs in one round. Would love to see some work done creatively with existing areas to adjust the difficulty toward more encouragement of party play and less directing towards certain builds.

+1

[zhazz]

I will say that I can understand the frustrations voiced by some players over inflated saving throws. There definitely APPEARS to be a massive leap when you get the CR15 + areas in terms of stopping certain things from working. I think that's ok to a point, but also feel there should be more of a puzzle in figuring out weaknesses of certain enemies. Just pumping saves, granting DR and massive HP pools to enemies isn't really an increase in difficulty, it is actually more of an encouragement toward certain builds that handle such things with ease. There are other, more creative ways to ensure difficulty of areas which would actually encourage party play while providing for difficulty to those builds that today handle the more 'standard' mobs with ease since they do enough damage to cut through DR and down most mobs in one round. Would love to see some work done creatively with existing areas to adjust the difficulty toward more encouragement of party play and less directing towards certain builds.

That is one of my main issues as well. It is absolutely ridiculous how high some of the Saves are. DR doesn't become a thing until much later, fortunately so. But when it does you have to make a hard choice between using a weapon that bypasses the DR, or one that adds to your AB so you can even land a hit in the first place!

It is also absolutely abysmal how some of the caster mobs have insanely high AC for their CR — I'm looking at you Goblin Soothsayer!
Trying to down that one before it can change shape is often a lesson in futility even at character level 15 with a mix of +2 and +3 items. Need to roll a total of 29 or higher on the AB roll to even hit, and before you manage to do so you likely get your heroism and/or haste dispelled. Then it continues right on to Stoneskin, and proceeds to laugh in your face as it goes Treant, becomes immune to critical hits, still has Stoneskin up, and now has an AC of 36.

For newer players trying to complete the quest in the mines it is likely to result in a trip to the Fugue the first few (many) times because that boss monster is so high above all the other monsters in CR. The goblins in that mine are below the orcs in the caves in CR, but I would definitely put the Soothsayer above the Chieftain in CR. That is how it feels.

I would say this though:
If the concern is that high-level characters will go on loot runs through low-level content for easy gold, and that concern is the basis for the inflated Saves, AB, and AC in those areas then change the loot scripts to reduce the loot for characters going to areas far below their own level, to the point where a level 30 doesn't get anything at all from visiting the Hilltop Ruins.

[realayer]

*temporarily hijacks Chads thread*

Just pumping saves, granting DR and massive HP pools to enemies isn't really an increase in difficulty, it is actually more of an encouragement toward certain builds that handle such things with ease. There are other, more creative ways to ensure difficulty of areas which would actually encourage party play while providing for difficulty to those builds that today handle the more 'standard' mobs with ease since they do enough damage to cut through DR and down most mobs in one round.

Speaking of inflated stats/saves/the like, I'm seriously starting to think there's an over-abundance of monsters on this server who are crit-immune. I decided to take my level 30 Sacred Fist to the spirit troll caves(an area I never take my rogue. 10 years later, that was the first time I explored the place, and saw the boss), and holy jumping bajeepers... the knockdown spam and crit-immunity/DR in that place is bonkers. It kind of made me wonder how players manage the content without a way to overcome them(I seldom notice crit-immunity/DR since my rogue has epic precision). My SF is no slouch, and it took me a few minutes to kill one air elemental, but still I was managing the place rather well... until I got bored and decided to charge the boss room, just so I'd know what the boss actually looked like Needless to say, things went downhill fast. In attempting to run like hell, my toon got pinned against a wall by about 8 critters, half of which KD'd him repeatedly, and I didn't have the means to do enough damage to chip away at the mob... still, I lasted about 3 or 4 minutes before visiting the fugue, so I'm just going to look at that like an accomplishment.

These are exactly what I proposed in my post, although without providing an actual solution as my playtime is limited, and I don't have the deep mechanical knowledge like others do. My main points are two:

1. There are better methods to make areas challenging than just granting mobs immunities.
2. Some of the immunities, like crit/sneak immunity, are immersion-breaking and thus RP breaking. After all this is a RP server: a character would wonder why did his/her precisely placed strikes do not create more damage, granted that mob is physical not ethereal.

BTW Chad, I enjoy reading your post, and learned more about the areas and game mechanics from your post!

[c2k]

Some arcane caster/cleric builds actually make short work of those spawns, even with all the immunities. I'll agree its somewhat of a disconnect between what your average player is building and what your hard core build-monkey schemed up to dominate the epic areas.

[chad878262]

Current level: 18
Equipment: Mithril Chainmail, Belt of Growth, Finch's Fine Chapeau, AC3 Amulet, AC3, +10 HP bracers, AC3 Ring, Universal Saves +1 Ring, AC3 Boots, Katana +4, +4 Tower Shield or +3 Heavy Shield, Helm of Opposite Alignment (PfE), and wands of IMA, Deathward and Spiderskin.

AC: 10 (base) + 6 (Mithril Chainmail) + 1 (LoH) + 2 (Tumble) + 9 (deflection/dodge/natural) + 3 (armor bracers) + 2 (DEX) = 33, 38 w/ +3 Heavy Shield/ 41 w/ +4 Tower. IMA wand: 41 / 44. IMA+ Spiderskin: 42 / 45. IMA+Spiderskin+Cats Grace (Assassin): 44 / 47. IMA+SS+CG+Combat Expertise: 47 / 50.

AB: 15 (BAB) + 6 (STR 23) + 4 (EB) = 25, 23 w/ shield bash active, 21 w/ shield bash and tower shield. Potions of (greater) heroism (+4 / 2), bulls STR (+1), Bless (+1) and Aid (+1) used occasionally if needed.

Saves: Fortitude and Reflex are pretty decent, Will sucks.

General Combat strategy: Shield Charge followed by utilizing Shield Slam, Feint, Knockdown, and Blinding Strike. HiPS and/or Ghost Step (2/day) utilized defensively when needed.

Blinding Strike and Shield Charge bugs: I previously advised that when you activate Shield Charge while Blinding Strike is on cooldown you get notified that Battle Howl is still on cooldown and the Blinding Strike cooldown is reset, allowing you to reactivate it. Further testing shows an additional issue that if you activate Shield Charge when Blinding Strike is not on cooldown both cooldowns start (shield charge has a 12s cooldown while blinding strike cooldown is 45s). This creates zero synergy since outside of longer engagements you basically can use one or the other. I know Valefort edit: Endelyon (credit where credits due!) looked in to this so hopefully some bugs will be squashed.

Nothing much else to comment on in terms of content. Have gone to the Elder Ogre Fortress a few more times. Gone in to Ulcaster several times, but thus far my search rolls have been very low (have +9 search, but it's a DC20 and NWN2 random number generator is poopie) so I haven't actually been able to explore any of it yet. If anyone see's me in game and wants to do a little adventure, exploration shoot me a tell! (preferably someone with a very high Search skill )

Obviously I will reiterate again the lack of mid-level and higher content is really obvious. We have several new low level dungeons, which we already have (had) plenty of and, while those new dungeons are quite well done it's just unfortunate that the best experience is 1-12...After that it does become somewhat of a slog and definitely understandable while players often call it a grind. However, had a brief event with a DM today (thank you again DM Bloodvine) shortly after meeting up with another player (CarrieW if I recall correctly, if not, deepest apologies, but thank you as well!) We were doing a spot of Wyvern Hunting when all of a sudden there was some screams from up on the southern most hill/nest and we got swarmed by MANY wyverns. It was a tough fight with so many, but we prevailed and headed toward the nest when a Wyvern Matron charged us... even tougher battle, but we were successful (at least partially thanks to my companion healing me while peppering the wyvern with her bow...elfs, what can ya do?) In any case, it lasted all of ten minutes, but really energized my experience after lamenting about the lack of any interesting places to go (especially since stupid dice rolls are keeping me from exploring Ulcasters!) In my opinion these kinds of interactions are some of the most important activities DMs engage in. I don't mean to devalue Players long/ongoing events, the server metaplots, and of course the fixing characters and (unfortunately) the arbitration between players that break rules and/or don't get along for whatever reason. I only mean that just a little 10 minute quick hit event enlivens the server for those involved and if a DM can do even 2 or 3 of these in an hour (assuming some setup is required on their part, otherwise maybe 4-5?) they are giving multiple players/groups something unexpected that they can enjoy for a good amount of time afterward RP'ing about. Unfortunately I had to log on to work, otherwise I would definitely have stayed to talk to my PC's companion during the battle and the other PC we ran in to at the campfire... *sigh* adulting sucks.


One last point unrelated to the PC I've been utilizing for these posts. I talked a buddy of mine in to buying NWN2 and playing BG with me now and again. Last night was only like the 2nd or 3rd time we played together and he (a level 3 earth genasi barbarian) and I (a level 4 Gold Dwarf Bard) went in to the Mausoleum. Just such a fantastic low level dungeon, kudo's again to Rad-Icarus. I still disagree with having an area designed for level ~2-4 PC's with a bottom level designed for level ~9-12 PCs...because the 9-12's will 'loot run' the upper levels which disrupts the lower levels and, in addition the lower levels essentially have to go through the dungeon twice (and obviously no loot on the way back up) since you need to go to the bottom level to get to a place where you can get back out quickly. Not the worst thing in the world because as I said, the dungeon is great, just something I think would make it better would be to either make the bottom level like CR 5 or so or keep as is, but move it to below the East Cloakwood Mines or the Lions Way Trolls or something. Still, was a fun experience when after beating the boss we were headed back to the exit and along the way ran in to like half a dozen spawns. My buddy took a dirt nap, and it was a close thing, but I was able to defeat them, grab his body, use a wand of enlarge person I found because I was overloaded, then activate bard song (Haven Song) and get on outta there. Good times were had by all.

Anywho, cheers everyone and happy Friday!

[chad878262]

Hello again BG, ready for your next wall of text?

To start with, a shout out and thank you to Rad-Icarus. For those that don't know he created the Mausoleum, Greenest and Winding Waters area's. After talking with him about my insane boredom with not enough area's and repetitive adventures he pointed out the fact that Winding Waters was added (which I did not know about). It's definitely a fun area with some pretty challenging enemies. Solo at level 18 it definitely could put me in some sticky, possibly deadly situations. However, with a duo it was far less dangerous (though you still need to watch yourself when a larger encounter triggers). Once with a trio it was negligible. All of these maps are really gorgeous and it just makes me all the more hope the Server Split is done very soon so he can (hopefully, everyone poke and bribe Rad-Icarus) work on delivering us more big dungeons and other maps to explore, kill monsters, and take their stuff. (Especially at CR 13+)

My character is level 19 now, but not much is different from 18. I have reached the point where now I really feel like I need to create a new level 1 again. There are a couple area's I *might* be able to survive in a party, but playing early mornings means that is not always possible (part of Durlag's, Nashkel Mines, Troll Claws would be less daunting too). I think this is about the same point where Steve kind of stalled out a couple years ago in his roleplaying through the perceived grind topic. I really think it boils down to the lower levels go exceedingly quick and yet have far more available content than the mid-to-high levels which slow down considerably. Roleplay is well and good, I enjoy it. However, if you are roleplaying through the same dungeon you have been to a dozen times it becomes awkward. It's jarring when your party mates say things like "These orcs, they spawn like rabbits and a new Chieftan seems always able to wrest control quickly whenever someone takes down the last." I realize the issue here is simply the issue of any persistent world, but if you are only going to that dungeon two or three times before moving on, it is less likely to come up.

Anyway, I will still play Clinton, but probably not as often since I am sort of at a point where anyplace I go with him is either someplace that I know will get him killed, or I've been to so many times as to be dull/repetitive. Obviously if a group of roughly equivalent PCs are logged in and I might have a chance to party up than that changes things as well. Meantime, what are some archetypes that you feel are not playable on BG? Blasters are more doable now with Reignite Evocation and I imagine are far more enjoyable than they used to be, a well done creation in my opinion. Strength based Sword and Board 'Thug' rogue I believe at least to level 19 I am satisfied is both viable and loads of fun. So I am taking suggestions or requests of other types of PCs you might like to play, but do not feel can be effectively played in PvE on this server. Glaive-Lock is one option I've been looking in to. It definitely has some serious flaws introduced by going for STR based hideous blow rather than either CON-Lock blaster or DEX-lock DSM. However, in theory crafting I already feel there are several ways to build one that is more than survivable, but depending which way you go with the building it will definitely have some things that are less than desirable such as low AB, low saves and/or losing too much invoker levels. If anyone has one that sparks my interest I'll certainly give it a go, just let me know your thoughts if interested.

Cheers and happy gaming y'all!

[Steve]

Yo Chadddddddddddddddde!

It is my opinion, and shared by others I know, that leveling through the Epic levels IS a special grind unto itself. Call it the Epic Double Grind-Grind. Or, whatever. If you've done it once, then it was the best and easiest time of it. Every consecutive attempt at Leveling an Epic Character will get less and less interesting. Hopefully, for the Player, that would be off-set by more and greater opportunities for Role-play, thus one would completely forget about leveling, and to quote, one simply "enjoys the ride."

For example, let's just say a Player has 1 hour of game time every day (yes, that is not the average Player!). Grinding for XP in the Epic Levels, solo, is about 1,000 XP per hour. If you group up, you can hit 3,000 per hour in the right Area. Level 20 to 30 is 235,000 xp +/- ECL and XP penalty. So for a soloist, that is 235 days @ 1 hour a day, to grind through the Epic Levels (not counting more/less IG time per week, not counting visiting the Fugue...cause you know it will happen at least a few times).

I wonder how many Players coming to NWN2 and BGTSCC want to spent 2/3 of a year reaching one type of End Point in the Game, which isn't just Level 30, but instead actually experiencing IG all the content (mobs, Areas, Bosses, etc.). I'd say it is probably more likely 1 year commitment to Level a PC to 30 for the average Player who just plays a single toon. I'm just spit balling here.

So here is kinda the dilemma, which I think you're touching on directly, Chad 'ol boy: why spend so much time taking FOREVER to get to Level 30 when you can have much more immediate fun, and variety, but starting again on a Level 1 character and play with all those different buttons and options and such...and STILL CAN HAVE THE RP!

That's the think about BGTSCC: low through mid Levels are so much more gratifying because of sheer rapid progression, and you get pretty decent returns in terms of gear and such, and you often find a greater population of Players within your PC's level, than you do when in the Epics (because honestly, except for the Looters Club, what point is there to adventuring when at 28, 29 or 30?).

On a side note, I finally managed a Level 30 toon the other month, after not having any PC above 24 for about 5 years. I just couldn't see the point, until it had been so long since having full mechanical manifestation, it seemed tempting enough to actually "put in the work" to get there. I'm wasn't really satisfied though...except for the fact that I now have an uber pawning Character that can be the bad dude on the block (which is fun now and then). Funny enough, I mostly and still just RP with the toon!

A glaive-lock is super easy to play. I still think a pure blaster will still struggle (you'll need to multi-task the toon, else it will be a slow slog). What I'd challenge you with is doing Zan and mine's Single Class Heroes challenge! Take a Base Class to Level 30, no PrCs, no multiclassing. And THEN see how far you get, and if you think it still is enjoyable! Or, make an ECL +1-2 and 20% XP penalty toon. THAT will slow you down mate!!! lol.

BTW, overall, BGTSCC has an amazing range of awesomely build Areas, and I think we are all super spoiled in that more show up every month or two. It is really a moment to send you L.O.V.E. to the Devs and Scripters, publicly or privately, about how enjoyable they make this gaming experience (except for when they don't...yeah, you know who you are frenemie!!!). The only thing that I think could make it better than we already have it is if already existing Areas had some fluctuation in CR and mob-type, now and again. Like, for example, taking the Cloakwood Mines, and just doubling the CR for a month or two. Then, after some IG experience and hopefully generated IG RP around the new "epic infestation of foes," the CR would go back to what we know (and kinda love...), and the next set of Areas would get a temporary/permanent "facelift." I say this because often we have to rely on the DM Team to give us this variety, but, I also think we can't put that kind of demand on the Team, either. But I do know for certain that so many Players would fully enjoy having reason to bring their high level PCs back to a low level dungeon/area, without being accused of "trolling" lowbie areas, and stealing everyone's loot with ease.

I see your wall of text and raise you by one!

[izzul]

Yo Chadddddddddddddddde!

except for the fact that I now have an uber pawning Character that can be the bad dude on the block (which is fun now and then). Funny enough, I mostly and still just RP with the toon!

normally, getting to epics and doing repetition is to gain OOC learning curve so you can teach another how to deal with an area while pawning the mobs when you reach 30. (being Uber is the satisfaction itself, while showing others how to deal with difficulties + RP to gain prestige and become famous known PC)

Hello again BG, ready for your next wall of text?
So I am taking suggestions or requests of other types of PCs you might like to play, but do not feel can be effectively played in PvE on this server.

try the new Permadeath Character system. it is very exciting for expert Uber oldies with unlimited OOC knowledge of the server

[Snarfy]

My character is level 19 now, but not much is different from 18. I have reached the point where now I really feel like I need to create a new level 1 again.

Leveling up through the 18+ range can be like pulling teeth, for sure, but having a regular group of other characters to adventure/RP with can offset the pain. Going at the leveling experience from a combat/mechanics focused perspective is probably not helping you in this regard

So for a soloist masochist, that is 235 days @ 1 hour a day, to grind through the Epic Levels.

Fixed that for you! ... gawd, if grinding/killing monsters was the only way to get XP, I would not have a single level 30 toon. As much as some people (like Chad) hate questing, it can be a nice way to counteract the dreadfully slow crawl of the XP bar in the epic levels... too bad it's so bloody tedious(especially if you're a caster) and OOC.

On a side note, I finally managed a Level 30 toon the other month, after not having any PC above 24 for about 5 years. I just couldn't see the point, until it had been so long since having full mechanical manifestation, it seemed tempting enough to actually "put in the work" to get there. I wasn't really satisfied though...

It took you 5 years to make a level 30 jerk? Well done!

Speaking as someone who has 4 level 30's, a level 25, a level 23(that I rcr'd from 30), a level 21, and 5 other toons under level 15, seeing characters to their full manifestation can be a lot of fun, especially when you try out and learn classes that deviate from your main character. Finding a sense of satisfaction is tricky after level 30, and really only comes from finding meaningful RP, or delving into plots(assuming either of those can be found)... unless of course one enjoys circle looting for the rest of their days.

[chad878262]

Hopefully, for the Player, that would be off-set by more and greater opportunities for Role-play, thus one would completely forget about leveling, and to quote, one simply "enjoys the ride."

Fair statement, but when you log in and there are usually ~17 other players in game that's hit or miss. Not your problem of course, but Roleplay is also one of those things that different players define in different manners. My character is an adventurer, not a party planner, baker, shop keeper/merchant or even a knight of some faction...A drifter that goes out to make his fortune in the wilds of the Sword Coast. A lot of the roleplay that happens doesn't seem to be much about adventuring, which is fine, to each their own.

For example, let's just say a Player has 1 hour of game time every day (yes, that is not the average Player!). Grinding for XP in the Epic Levels, solo, is about 1,000 XP per hour. If you group up, you can hit 3,000 per hour in the right Area. Level 20 to 30 is 235,000 xp +/- ECL and XP penalty. So for a soloist, that is 235 days @ 1 hour a day, to grind through the Epic Levels (not counting more/less IG time per week, not counting visiting the Fugue...cause you know it will happen at least a few times).

I wonder how many Players coming to NWN2 and BGTSCC want to spent 2/3 of a year reaching one type of End Point in the Game, which isn't just Level 30, but instead actually experiencing IG all the content (mobs, Areas, Bosses, etc.). I'd say it is probably more likely 1 year commitment to Level a PC to 30 for the average Player who just plays a single toon. I'm just spit balling here.

So here is kinda the dilemma, which I think you're touching on directly, Chad 'ol boy: why spend so much time taking FOREVER to get to Level 30 when you can have much more immediate fun, and variety, but starting again on a Level 1 character and play with all those different buttons and options and such...and STILL CAN HAVE THE RP!

That's the think about BGTSCC: low through mid Levels are so much more gratifying because of sheer rapid progression, and you get pretty decent returns in terms of gear and such, and you often find a greater population of Players within your PC's level, than you do when in the Epics (because honestly, except for the Looters Club, what point is there to adventuring when at 28, 29 or 30?).

On a side note, I finally managed a Level 30 toon the other month, after not having any PC above 24 for about 5 years. I just couldn't see the point, until it had been so long since having full mechanical manifestation, it seemed tempting enough to actually "put in the work" to get there. I'm wasn't really satisfied though...except for the fact that I now have an uber pawning Character that can be the bad dude on the block (which is fun now and then). Funny enough, I mostly and still just RP with the toon!

Yeah, I guess we just sort of slightly disagree from a standpoint of what the purpose of a PW is (which is exactly why BG tries to cater to many different play styles I suppose). To me RP and going out adventuring are not either or, they exist hand in hand. If I am roleplaying in an in or around a campfire it is either a) Planning for an expedition or b) carousing with the party after said expedition. Much like if I am sitting around a table with some buddies playing D&D, what I find really enjoyable is the RP around dealing with puzzles, combats, riddles, etc. NWN2 will never get to that point, but it really does do a pretty good job simulating some aspects of PnP.

BTW, overall, BGTSCC has an amazing range of awesomely build Areas, and I think we are all super spoiled in that more show up every month or two. It is really a moment to send you L.O.V.E. to the Devs and Scripters, publicly or privately, about how enjoyable they make this gaming experience

All the yes, agree infinity.

try the new Permadeath Character system. it is very exciting for expert Uber oldies with unlimited OOC knowledge of the server

*shrug* I guess, but personally I don't see the point. Especially when I am the type that gets bored and decides to take on Chaos at level 17... Hey, it worked once (wizards are OP).

Leveling up through the 18+ range can be like pulling teeth, for sure, but having a regular group of other characters to adventure/RP with can offset the pain. Going at the leveling experience from a combat/mechanics focused perspective is probably not helping you in this regard

Well start logging in at 6 am Eastern US time every day so I have a consistent buddy to play with Snarf!!! We will rule the server world while no one else is on!!!

[Snarfy]

Well start logging in at 6 am Eastern US time every day so I have a consistent buddy to play with Snarf!!! We will rule the server world while no one else is on!!!

You say that like I would be good company to mulch content with at 4 am(or any other time).... hahahahahahahaha!!! Aaaahahahahha. Haaaalolelolhahahahasdf! GOOD ONE.




( \m/ )

[Tanlaus]

Chad wrote:

Yeah, I guess we just sort of slightly disagree from a standpoint of what the purpose of a PW is (which is exactly why BG tries to cater to many different play styles I suppose). To me RP and going out adventuring are not either or, they exist hand in hand. If I am roleplaying in an in or around a campfire it is either a) Planning for an expedition or b) carousing with the party after said expedition. Much like if I am sitting around a table with some buddies playing D&D, what I find really enjoyable is the RP around dealing with puzzles, combats, riddles, etc. NWN2 will never get to that point, but it really does do a pretty good job simulating some aspects of PnP.

I agree. Mostly, with the exception of intrigue between various factions, there’s interesting RP there as well...

But mostly yes, I prefer my RP to be tied to adventuring in one way or another when possible.

One problem with this when you reach 30, which if you’re in this game for the long haul is when you’ll spend most of your time, is that there really isn’t much to challenge a party of adventurers at that level.

My suggestion, post server split of course, would be to have some epic areas that really offer some kind of challenge to end game groups.

[Valefort]

I've said it elsewhere but ramping up PvE difficulty only ever pushes people towards more powerbuilding, which is bad for build diversity and punishing for new players, if you want challenge play weaker builds. I'm aware it's not very satisfying because other characters will outshine you and PvP wise you can get pummeled but that's a choice you have to make : bored and competitive or challenged and weaker.

Adjusting the difficulty of the spawns in function of the characteristics of the group would be ideal but : it can easily be gamed, it's not super believable, it's a gargantuan task as gauging accurately the power level of a group is insanely difficult. If you've got better ideas I'm all ears.

[chad878262]

I've said it elsewhere but ramping up PvE difficulty only ever pushes people towards more powerbuilding, which is bad for build diversity and punishing for new players, if you want challenge play weaker builds. I'm aware it's not very satisfying because other characters will outshine you and PvP wise you can get pummeled but that's a choice you have to make : bored and competitive or challenged and weaker.

This is a fair statement Valefort. However, I would say there can be a balance which we already have to an extent. Not all areas of equivalent CR are truly equal in regards to difficulty and different builds shine in different areas. My current build is certainly weaker than probably anything I've played prior, but still doesn't get outshone by more powerful builds played by others because he still has a niche he can fill and sometimes can even be a very high damage dealing semi-tank. Point being you can make builds that give a challenge without everyone outshining you in PvE. He would of course still get pwn'd in PvP by anyone who had half a clue, but since I avoid such things I also don't care how they'd turn out. Anyway I believe that as a player you can make a character which has fun mechanics and RP which can fill a niche better than most, making you capable of having your own shine with others while not powerbuilding to the point of boredom in PvE.

Adjusting the difficulty of the spawns in function of the characteristics of the group would be ideal but : it can easily be gamed, it's not super believable, it's a gargantuan task as gauging accurately the power level of a group is insanely difficult. If you've got better ideas I'm all ears.

Any gargantuan task I would reject out of hand unless someone insists on working on it as a pet project. Fixing more easy stuff is better than enhancing one really complex thing that works well enough as is. That said there is another way, by simply having some dungeons that are dedicated to requiring parties like the White Dragon does today. Sure, some will powerbuild so they can solo these areas, but others will not. Instead enjoying the idea of forming a group that goes to these areas to experience the challenge instead of just going on a loot run to 'farm' bosses or whatever.

I agree. Mostly, with the exception of intrigue between various factions, there’s interesting RP there as well...

As do I... I feel like perhaps I am coming off to some that I *only* do the type of RP involved in dungeoneering and that is not the case. I only mean to explain that you *can* RP while 'looting/getting XP' You do not have to get as many chests in as short a period as possible. Nor are you required to run in circles eliminating thousands of Xvarts per hour. You can enjoy RP'ing with a group and going to area's that are difficult enough to challenge you (which further encourages taking it slow, looking for traps, scouting out encounters, etc.) Anyway, your point is certainly something I agree with.

One problem with this when you reach 30, which if you’re in this game for the long haul is when you’ll spend most of your time, is that there really isn’t much to challenge a party of adventurers at that level.

My suggestion, post server split of course, would be to have some epic areas that really offer some kind of challenge to end game groups.

More often than not, unless the character has ongoing RP, is the leader or a prominent member in a guild or otherwise has something engaging that would keep him active they end up sitting in my character vault. A couple times I have had the good fortune to put together an expedition to take on the White Dragon with a party of 30's and that was good fun (only one of the 6 died. ) A couple more area's like that would certainly encourage some epic party adventures. Though Valefort is not wrong that it also can lead to powerbuilding for solo or even just duo build groups to allow for 'farming' No way around that, but to be honest I am ok with that. I'm more interested in finding the folks like myself that would just group up with their imperfect, but perfectly viable characters and enjoy a challenge they need to work together in order to successfully survive.

[Tanlaus]

I've said it elsewhere but ramping up PvE difficulty only ever pushes people towards more powerbuilding, which is bad for build diversity and punishing for new players, if you want challenge play weaker builds. I'm aware it's not very satisfying because other characters will outshine you and PvP wise you can get pummeled but that's a choice you have to make : bored and competitive or challenged and weaker.

Adjusting the difficulty of the spawns in function of the characteristics of the group would be ideal but : it can easily be gamed, it's not super believable, it's a gargantuan task as gauging accurately the power level of a group is insanely difficult. If you've got better ideas I'm all ears.

I have a few thoughts, maybe good, maybe terrible, I’ll let you decide

First, my thought process is more along the lines of what Chad said above about adding a few epic areas, as opposed to adjusting the difficulty of spawns. These areas would be specifically for epic groups. Can someone power build to solo them? Maybe. Or maybe not so much. Either way they’re not necessary for someone to level or to RP around.

Also I’m really talking group play here. After a certain point it feels like a group of 30s can wipe anything in the server without breaking a sweat. And this is non power builds.

So as to the how... a feel like, with a few exceptions the standard epic boss format is, fight your way to an area where there is just a boss, like the pit fiend or most of the dragons, or a boss with a few relatively inconsequential henchmen, like the Balor or Frost Giant King, and proceed to wipe the floor.

Get your tank on the big guy, quickly clean up the henchmen either with huge burst dps or vamp feast, then proceed to chew through however much HP and DR is needed. It’s usually just a matter of time.

But if you had maybe 3 pit fiends in an area, especially one like the UD as opposed to the Nashkel mines where you can’t just transition out, it becomes much more of a challenge for a group and possibly not so soloable.

Or one pit fiend and 20 infernal imps that aren’t close enough together to wipe with a single spell.

If you’ve played the Pathfinder Kingmaker CRPG there’s a dragon encounter near the end game that is exceptionally difficult because he is surrounded by kobolds that deal a lot of ranged damage. You have to split your resources and focus to keep from being overwhelmed on all sides

Actually that game has a few encounters that could serve as templates...

Anyway, my point is it’s really combinations of different types of powerful opponents in an encounter, with enough space that it is difficult to cheese but running in and out, that can create appropriate challenges for epic groups.