Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Couple points to consider folks.

1. The only current considerations are being given for underrepresented weapon (or I suppose armor) types, if any.
2. Many on staff when epic shops were introduced specifically did not want to include mithril armors (especially with enchantment bonuses) or +4 Stat items. However, they went in and aren't likely to be removed (see #4).
3. There are plenty of Longswords as well as a certain cheap item that can apply keen and/or +3 EB to any weapon.
4. There is no desire to create 'new grandfathered' items. While some may want to reduce item power for specific items or in general, it's simply not likely to happen. What is done is done, what is already in shops will most likely stay, aside from any found to be over the top and then there would be an announcement and inventory items of any specific problem items would also be adjusted via script. Not saying it will happen, just that it could, but would be announced in advance if it became necessary.

So certainly suggestions are fine, but speaking personally (and in no way for anyone else in QC or Development) I have no desire to make +4 Stat items available for any inventory slot nor do I want to introduce more weapons outside of any that really don't give any decent options. Overall I would prefer we avoid any further epic shop additions since it is kind of nice to still have some potential to get a cool item that can't be purchased.

Hopefully this is clear, but this is all just my opinion plus historical context. It is not a 'staff decision' in any way or representative of a hard 'no'. I do not have, nor would I exercise such authority without consensus from staff. Just calling it out to give some context for anyone interested in suggesting new epic items on ways that said suggestions are more likely to warrant consideration.

I will only advocate for two things.

1. Variety
2. Equal opportunity

What does that then mean?

For starters let's look at the Variety aspect.
Due to RCR, and generally the ease of creating and leveling characters there are a lot of different builds out there. Like a lot a lot. Many may fall into the same categories, as seen in the stats post by Valefort a while back, but the devil is in the details as they say.

Players design, create, play, and RP all sorts of different characters. Sometimes a theme is being built around, either for the sake of power or for RP. Or it's just for fun and doesn't mean anything. Over time the characters are invested into, and what was initially just a test of a concept becomes a beloved character with several connections, and quite a story under their belt. It creates a lot of variety.

Available items should further expand upon this variety, by providing weird property combinations. Items which some players will look at and immediately see some value in having. Either for fun, or RP, or to use in a strange build that on paper seems stupid, but is actually quite engaging to play.

Which brings us to the topic of Equal opportunity.
The RIG does a wonderful job at providing strange item combinations, and generating both powerful and interesting loot. It is where the most powerful items can be found. Incredibly rare, yes, but barring a few select items from the epic stores the RIG always has the option to outdo those items.

However, it isn't perfect.

It is quite disheartening to play a character overly reliant on the RIG to get fully equipped. It gets even worse when it is recognized that those items from the RIG are almost impossible to get a hold of. Because the combination is so rare that it requires a grandfathered item in trade. It isn't the demand for such an item that makes it so difficult and/or expensive to get, it's the rarity of it.

This is where the epic shop should fill in the gaps. Sadly it doesn't. Primarily when it comes to weapons. Not all weapon types are available with a fire or acid mod to facilitate the killing of trolls. Not all weapons types are available with Vampiric. Not even all weapons are available as basic +4 from shops, with many of the +4 weapons having additional properties that may be undesirable/useless for the character but still increases the cost of the item.

This lack of equal opportunity, outside of the RIG, is what cause so many builds to use the same weapons. Because why hope for a +4 Falchion with 1d4 Fire/Acid damage from the RIG for slaying the spirit/ice trolls, when you can just pick the Viperblade Scimitar from the epic shop and get what you want at the cost of ~1 average damage?

That is not to say that every weapon or item should just be a copy/paste of each other, because that would be boring. However, some item types are definitely over-represented in the epic stores, while others are under-represented, or lacking entirely.




On a personal note I would love to see at least one decent non-stealth epic kukri added to the epic shops. As a kukri wielder it really sucks that it's either the RIG, or pay 110,000 gold for a +4 kukri, which does nothing else for the character.

zhazz wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:54 am I will only advocate for two things.

1. Variety
2. Equal opportunity

On a personal note I would love to see at least one decent non-stealth epic kukri added to the epic shops. As a kukri wielder it really sucks that it's either the RIG, or pay 110,000 gold for a +4 kukri, which does nothing else for the character.

That's a good point actually, I didn't think about under-represented items, or finding a weapon that fits your RP theme

How about if there was a rare item, like an "Ancient Relic", could be Netherese/Imaskari/Aryvandarian whatever you want to RP it as, and it allowed someone with Craft Magic Arms & Armor to bestow a +4 enhancement on any one item.

Wouldn't that give you a ton more choices?

You could choose Pixieduster and make it +4 if you're some kinda glitter covered faerie-lover, or a RIG Kukri with a property you like.

Of course one or two weapons I can think of would be too powerful with +4 enhancement, so it'd have to have some drawbacks, like removing "+X Attack bonus" property before adding the enhancement, and perhaps not be useable on mithril/adamantine?

Sorry if this is completely outside the scope of this discussion; I haven't been here that long, so I'm unsure why crafting was disabled on BGTSCC.

In my opinion anything that allows you to be completely equipped in an optimized fashion in a set time is a bad idea, it kills one of the main incentives of adventuring and looting, which is to get better gear.

zhazz wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:54 am This lack of equal opportunity, outside of the RIG, is what cause so many builds to use the same weapons. Because why hope for a +4 Falchion with 1d4 Fire/Acid damage from the RIG for slaying the spirit/ice trolls, when you can just pick the Viperblade Scimitar from the epic shop and get what you want at the cost of ~1 average damage?

Torch fighting is a thing.

Valefort wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:45 am In my opinion anything that allows you to be completely equipped in an optimized fashion in a set time is a bad idea, it kills one of the main incentives of adventuring and looting, which is to get better gear.

Wouldn't the reason to adventure and loot be to have fun and also go for that small chance of +4 with extras?

Wards already provide standard +4 ability mods from early levels.

It would open more spell options to friendly casters and not "need" to carry +4 ability wards.

Plus, who really wants to dedicate one entire slot with a lousy, vanilla +4 ability mod.

((Also, I don't really care either way, just submitting alternative argument)

Those ability spells only look lousy because of the existing +4 items though, otherwise they're stellar spells for this spell level, and people are very unlikely to have +4 ability items everywhere so they remain excellent imo.

Also getting better gear is one of the main incentives to adventure, not the only one.

Valefort wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:45 am In my opinion anything that allows you to be completely equipped in an optimized fashion in a set time is a bad idea, it kills one of the main incentives of adventuring and looting, which is to get better gear.

On the one had I agree in terms of +4 items. On the other, as someone who regularly RCRs to test builds, and knows before starting what items are avail, more variety in certain slots, like belts, boots and gloves for instance, would go a long way for helping people who don’t already know what’s available in order to build around it.

I’ve brought this up before but I’ll bring it up here. I think the amulets that we’re added not too long ago in Greenest are great. Nothing OP but just a lot of variety. I feel like doing the same with other slots would be beneficial to various builds without being overpowering.

Currently in the epic store you can buy belts with a +3 deflection bonus and a +3 stat and/or skill bonus and/or feat that might be great for certain builds but mostly useless for something similar or slightly different.

As an example, one thing I noticed when leveling a Phantom who depended on feint not to blow out his abilities every fight, was that outside of a +2 short sword in the mask store (which he needed UMD to use- another issue with the class) there are no items that combine stealth and bluff skills. Which, in my opinion, when you reach epic levels where lots of things have high spot, it kind of falls off as a viable tactic. You’re kind of forced to choose between one or the other.

Recently, testing a pure rogue, I didn’t bother with feint because of the need to rely on HiTS to survive meant the failure rate for feinting in Epics was far too high to bother investing in the feats.

I think this happens a lot with skill based builds.

Again, I’ve been playing in the server a bit, have RCR’d a lot, and can go in already knowing how things play out in epic levels and how to plan around available gear. But I do remember first getting to epic levels, seeing what was available and thinking “if only I’d known.”

Again, just to be clear. This is not a huge gripe of mine. There is lots of stuff available and I already know how to plan builds around it. And I’m also not talking about +4 star items. A little more variety in the +3 department, or skill variety department, might help people who are not building with gear in mind from the get go.

Valefort wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:45 am In my opinion anything that allows you to be completely equipped in an optimized fashion in a set time is a bad idea, it kills one of the main incentives of adventuring and looting, which is to get better gear.

Maybe if the RNG was a little more favorable...

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:50 pm As an example, one thing I noticed when leveling a Phantom who depended on feint not to blow out his abilities every fight, was that outside of a +2 short sword in the mask store (which he needed UMD to use- another issue with the class) there are no items that combine stealth and bluff skills. Which, in my opinion, when you reach epic levels where lots of things have high spot, it kind of falls off as a viable tactic. You’re kind of forced to choose between one or the other.

There are drops with both, even outside of RIG.

Bobthehero wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:54 pm Maybe if the RNG was a little more favorable...

The items sold in shops already allow almost any build to be viable in PvE. With that major mechanical incentive gone for many builds item optimization is the last mechanical growth there is, therefore it has to be extremely slow, practically to the point of impossibility, to make sure there's still something to look forward to.

It was impossibly slow even before the Epic store

Bobthehero wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:54 pmMaybe if the RNG was a little more favorable...

This is just my opinion, but I've started to look at this in a very particular way. Instead of starting off by building a character with a predefined weapon/item idea in my head and then getting disappointed when RNG is unkind, while playing on other characters, I keep an eye out for a really interesting item from a drop or a chest that could perhaps serve as some kind of backstory item for a new character and build around that instead. So for example, let's say I found a really interesting dwarven waraxe; maybe this could be a family heirloom for a dwarf character. Now I think about what classes might be interesting to play that would use it well. Then I think about where the axe might have come from, who forged it, what its history is and add some flavor text and then I've already got some cool background for my new character. Boom! They're the descendant of a long line of blacksmiths and the axe has been passed down to the youngest so that they might go out into the world and test their mettle before returning to take up the family business.

Is it a little meta/OOC? Sure, but for me it means I'm not getting sad playing the new character with the floppy short sword of +1 reflex and I put more mental work into the character's background. I think this is a fair trade in terms of encouraging better character creation/RP and balancing the potential monotony of trying to play the RNG slots for something you already built your character for, but never found. I'm also not talking about fully kitting a character out just in case anyone gets ideas.

Bobthehero wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:54 pm

Valefort wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:45 am In my opinion anything that allows you to be completely equipped in an optimized fashion in a set time is a bad idea, it kills one of the main incentives of adventuring and looting, which is to get better gear.

Maybe if the RNG was a little more favorable...

I agree with that. Or if a at least "one" decent item was guaranteed when killing epic bosses. Doesn't need to be a +4 item, just a minimum of +2 guaranteed, with a slight chance for higher.

As it stands the best way to gear a character is to run Hilltop Ruins, Goblin Mines, and Cloakwood Mines for ~20k gold per reset until you can afford the items you want. Those items come either from the epic stores, Mudd, or on the forums. Some players only want to do trading in items, and even here your best option is to buy something from Seller A, which you can then trade to seller B.

Trying to actively find the items on your own is a lesson in futility because the vast majority of times you get 5,000 gold and an Empty Spirits Bottle or non-magical item. Even the chests at said epic bosses are often disappointing.

While I can appreciate the concern that epic bosses dropping good loot might negatively impact the player economy, I don't believe balancing quality of drops due to power builders soloing content is a good way to go. It would be better to make no epic bosses soloable. Not necessarily by making them more difficult, but rather making them inaccessible unless in a group. Similar to how parts of the Stone Giant Fortress is inaccessible unless in a group.

Although all of this is a discussion is for another topic. Yet it still impacts the desire for more stuff in the epic shops.

Valefort wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:22 pm

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:50 pm As an example, one thing I noticed when leveling a Phantom who depended on feint not to blow out his abilities every fight, was that outside of a +2 short sword in the mask store (which he needed UMD to use- another issue with the class) there are no items that combine stealth and bluff skills. Which, in my opinion, when you reach epic levels where lots of things have high spot, it kind of falls off as a viable tactic. You’re kind of forced to choose between one or the other.

There are drops with both, even outside of RIG.

I believe you, but in the year and a half playing here, with multiple 30s, I've never seen one drop, or on the auction. And I don't recall seeing one in some of the trade only posts on the forums, but I personally try not to build with super rare stuff in mind and I'm sure I could have missed a marketplace forum post somewhere.

And I think it's more availability than existence that, to me, is the heart of the issue. I think- and I'm willing to be proved wrong- that a lot of people who have leveled feint builds notice that it kind of falls apart in epic content. So then the issue, to be viable (in theory viable) is to hope for an ultra rare drop, or go and RCR to- if you sneak- rely on HiPS or HITS because you know you can be viable without getting lucky.

So what happens is people end up, in the long run, getting somewhat pushed towards powerbuilds what might be a viable NWN2 game mechanic, doesn't fare so well on this particular server, partially by virtue of what happens to be readily available and what doesn't.

And again, I'm using this one particular example because I have personal experience with it. I'm sure other people have other examples that are just as, if not more, pressing.

Another example that someone else brought up would be the availability of small weapons (like short swords and daggers) compared to long swords and scimitars... or lots of other large weapons. There's plenty of +4 larger weapons with a 1d4 damage add and additional effects as well. There's only a single +4 short sword and the 1d4 effect is only against evil. And the +4 daggers only have 1 elemental damage. So if you want to play a melee shorty (I never play shorty races so this example is definitely not personal) you're not only dealing with a racial mechanical disadvantage, but an item one as well... provided you don't get exceedingly lucky. So again, just by virtue of what you can get your hands on you're pushed towards more powerful builds.

This reminds me a bit of the discord conversation we were having on Sunday about bleeds being negated by DR thus being mostly useless in epic levels. It would be reasonable if they could bypass DR because you're already trading upfront damage for damage over time... but coding it is another issue. Which is perfectly understandable.

The bleed thing may well be something that cannot be fixed. But, to me, if there are builds that are less viable (mostly in epics where these things become more obvious) because of (or partially because of) lack of available gear, particularly if said gear is not more powerful than what is already available for different builds, it seems like an easy thing to address that would ultimately be more RP beneficial in the long run as variety is more fun to both play, and play with.

In my opinion anyway.

Caveat #1, again not talking about +4 stat items.
Caveat #2, there's plenty of classes and PRCs I haven't tested so I'm sure there are even better examples than mine.
Caveat #3, I think maybe the small weapon thing is being looked into so it may well be a moot point. I just wanted to bring up an additional example to not seem fixated on only one thing... that only concerned a character I RCR'd many moons ago anyway.

Epic weapons with damage bonuses are among the worst offenders in the epic shops, for some items there's simply no chance at all to get something better from the RIG. You buy one once, you're done forever : awful.

There are certainly some weapons that could benefit from a slightly better selection in shops, without being epic ones. However for epic stuff like +4 weapon with damage bonus at this point it's a decision between making things worse forever by adding more epic items or leaving things temporarily unfair (temporarily because as you pointed it's an availability issue, which is solved by perseverance).