Enable higher tier dungeons for all

[yyj]

Going back on topic.

I think it's a bad idea to open up dungeons for UD races.

1. It will cause an uproar
2. PvP will increase
3. It caters only to a very specific group of players (looters grinders) and just gives mechanical advantages and no new avenues for RP

[chad878262]

It's very strange, there was a Sanctuary to Eilistraee in the Sword Coast at some point, that housed eilistreean drow, so you are doing a big disservice to local server lore. If it was approved by DMs, then it's canon.

Right? I guess, you just forgot about it, or didn't mention it for a reason?

I know nothing of an Elistraeen Sanctuary in any area anywhere on the server. This is perhaps because it was an IC *SECRET* and thus should not be known to those not associated (to avoid metagaming players going there to stir up trouble...) In any case, your post prompted me to do a bit of research and I can find no mention of any specific, approved DM lore around Elistraeen drow. What I was able to find was from DM Arkanis who is probably the most looped in on FR lore (including at one time going so far as to communicate with a FR author directly when I asked him a question via PM). While the below is not an official DM ruling it does further illustrate that in our timeline Elistraeen drow are rare, misunderstood, feared and hated by both Surface races *AND* Drow. Now seeing as Sshamath is not ruled by Llothites it stands to reason that Elistraeen's are accepted there (so long as they don't interfere with trade), but on the surface it remains as I stated previously. While I (rightfully) do not know anything about what occurred IC'ly with past or present Elistraeen PC's and DM RP, any of that RP that has not become common IC knowledge should not be used to change the canon lore for our timeline (still in 1e). Below read is from 2017, but I can't find anything else from DM's that supports an Elistraeen Sanctuary or any reason that Elistraee would be well known or understood by anyone that is not playing an Elistraeen.

My point is not to disparage players from making the RP attempt to be on the surface with their drow, it is not against the rules and is solely the purview of DM staff to make those decisions. My point is specifically related to the OP request giving the reasoning why long time players feel that there is plenty of server specific lore not to allow for underdark/surface cross over.


Subject: Ask Arkanis

My question for you today is a Semi-Official or Official DM stance and in respect of the Server Setting here at BGTSCC...

What is the Lore surrounding Eilistraee here on this server in THIS timeline? (This would be for those that know of her and worship her of course.) I would like to have Source Books pointing to it as well... give me all ya got on her please please and Thank You!!

Thanks for the question. Give me a hard one, will ya?

((OK I need to preface the answer with: my answer in no way is a DM decision, set's the server lore, or is meant to adjudicate, officiate or declare a ruling of any kind, in any way. It is just my opinion. Please don't run with, "but, yeah Arkanis said so" - that dog don't hunt.))

Our server tries to follow the FR timeline as closely as possible with respect to events/happenings as they relate to or are associated with Baldur's Gate. For ethical and metagaming reasons I cannot share specific details on what I know of the faithful of Eilistraee specific to our server.

When it comes to Eilistraee there is not a lot known about her at this time in the server time line. Here's what I have for lore up until 1353:

1. Eilistraee "works to lead the Dark Elves" back to the surface "Drow of the Underdark" p.66
2. Eilistraee took the role of a nurturing and protecting mother-goddess for the whole Drow race. "Questions for Ed Greenwood" 2006, 18.0 - 18.6
3. "The worshipers of Eilistraee mostly consisted of those drow who hoped to escape the danger and darkness of the Underdark and Lolth's evil, taking back their place in the surface world. However, in line with her ideals, Eilistraee would welcome beings of all races: elves, humans, and especially half-elves were among the followers of the goddess.[2][4] They shared the desire of seeing all races living in harmony, without pointless discrimination or wars, and worked towards that goal (and those among them who were drow also fought to build their own place on the Realms above).[4]

The faithful of Eilistraee, however, were little known and poorly understood by inhabitants of both the Realms Above and the Underdark. Her worshippers were figures of myth and superstition and were targets of prejudice and wild mistruths. Some surface dwellers believed they were the disguised vanguard of the Spider Goddess's plan to take over the surface, while those drow who followed Lolth or other evil deities suspected them of being surface elf spies and saboteurs posing as drow as a prelude to invasion. Most non-elves could not comprehend the existence of a good drow deity, while surface elves were uncomfortable considering it, finding Eilistraee a threat to their doctrine that the dark elves were wholly to blame for the Crown Wars and other ancient tragedies.[14][4]

Eilistraee was most commonly worshiped in Cormanthor among the drow there and in the Dalelands among the half-elves,[37] and also in Waterdeep and Skullport. She also had followers (mostly human, elves, and half-elves) living in Silverymoon and its surroundings.[4] All her worshipers were typically of a good nature.[2][4]

The Dark Dancer was worshiped through song and dance, if at all possible in the surface world under the moon (preferably in wooded places). Worship of her was usually accompanied by a feast.[2][4]"

"Drow of the Underdark" pp. 20-25
"Demihuman Deities" (Wizards of the Coast), pp. 13–16
"Faiths and Pantheons" (Wizards of the Coast), pp. 23–25.

What I gather from these source books is that she is an inclusive goddess, the faithful are little known, not understood - mistrusted by all, their worship is not common to Baldur's Gate and surrounding areas, and they are considered a threat to surface and UD elves alike.

Again, at this time in the server (1353) I would postulate that:
1. Drow would be KOS on the surface by any not knowing who they were, or being in protective custody, for example. At this point in the time line there are not a lot of Eilistraee worshipers and open faith on the surface is obscure, and in the UD punishable by death.
2. Their adventuring on the surface would be at night hours only "under the moon."
3. They would adhere to the utmost levels of secrecy in everything that they did - they would not, by choice, associate with any who were not of their faith for fear that there presence would become known to the greater populace. They would not post notices about their meetings, and they would not want to be seen, frankly, at all by anyone. They would not communicate or use non Drow methods of communication unless they could be absolutely certain that it could not be traced back to them, or the messages intercepted.
4. The goddess communicates mainly in visions/dreams not only to the faithful, but those she is seeking to convert. The dreams can, and often are mistaken for real visions, and can be seen/experienced by multiple people at the same time. They are hard to interpret, and usually leave the dreamer baffled.
5. The faithful would have alter-ego's/names/play different roles within UD Drow society so as not to give their true faith away - this is supported in numerous WotC paperback novels.
6. Players playing Eilistraee characters, looking for other Elistraee characters can't just post in the scry, or walk around asking, "oh, by the way who do you worship...?" I believe there should be (if there isn't) an OOC network/guild, etc. for players to find other players, but it should in no way be obvious IG how or where to find worshipers of this goddess. IC there should be a series of tests/trials/examinations before anyone knows of, or assumes another character is of this faith. (there are many "secret" guilds and associations in the game, this is one of them)
7. A "known" surface dwelling, chapel, place-of-worship for her followers anywhere near an inhabited spot on the BGTSCC map would not be tolerated by the others living in and around it. Again, the key-word is "known." The faithful are just not well known, or known at all to exist as who they are and would be looked at as Drow maurauders or invaders.

In my opinion, Drow characters on the surface should be wary of the consequences of being caught on the surface; Eilistraeen's more so because the potential for the exposure of their faith has farther reaching consequences then just hitting up one of the NPC merchants looking for stuff - it could possibly expose the entire network of characters, and lead to a hunt and extermination.

Server lore in terms of accepted role play, of course, may deviate from this. This is just MY take on what source material says about Drow and Eilistraee in general.

Arkanis

[Rhifox]

An easy, if lazy, way of fixing content issues for UD players would be to duplicate existing dungeons for them. Eg, dupilcate Nashkel mines and flavor it as a duergar outpost, or add a UD version of the frost giant castle to the ice area in Upperdark (or even just move the existing frost giant keep there and remove the one in the Peaks, since both surfacers and UDers can access the upperdark).

[JIŘÍ]

An easy, if lazy, way of fixing content issues for UD players would be to duplicate existing dungeons for them. Eg, dupilcate Nashkel mines and flavor it as a duergar outpost, or add a UD version of the frost giant castle to the ice area in Upperdark (or even just move the existing frost giant keep there and remove the one in the Peaks, since both surfacers and UDers can access the upperdark).

Lazy fix?

Half of UD is already a copy. Duergar mines, for instance.

[yyj]

An easy, if lazy, way of fixing content issues for UD players would be to duplicate existing dungeons for them. Eg, dupilcate Nashkel mines and flavor it as a duergar outpost, or add a UD version of the frost giant castle to the ice area in Upperdark (or even just move the existing frost giant keep there and remove the one in the Peaks, since both surfacers and UDers can access the upperdark).

I think this is great, but would it work? I am sure there's more to just copy/pasting stuff.

But if it is that simple, it would work great, just the transitions would need to be changed and maybe other things.

[chad878262]

It would require some work, but not as much work as building from scratch. In any case I doubt it's a realistic ask until the server split is completed and stable.

Meantime...if folks are interested in building dungeons they are welcome to start working on them. then once server split happens who knows? I for one would not mind reviewing dungeons for things like CR vs. loot potential etc. to ensure they don't become the next Kro's (at release that place was sick for XP and loot and still ain't bad). Once the server splits we will have plenty of space, but it's not like we are overflowing with builders (though the one's we do have are very talented!)

Point being, as with many requests, when it comes to more areas the response is, "if you want it done quick, you're better off making the effort to build it yourself." Just understand that you will probably be subjecting yourself to months and months of rebuilds and pushback to nerf this or remove that etc. It's a process.

[Tanlaus]

A couple thoughts as a UD player...

I 100% understand and feel the effects of a small secluded population in the UD. To the point that I actively try to help new players learn their way around the city, where the quests are, and help purchase starter gear, or give away stuff I’ve found instead of selling it, even though it’s kind of out of character. But I do remember first logging into S’shamath and being completely lost and alone. And I think that’s maybe not the biggest but one of the big hurtles to a healthy UD population. It’s hard to get started. And progress is slow.

I think the best way to overcome this is groups like Xorena’s that started as a group and often play together. Everything is easier and more fun when you have a group.

But since this is rarely the case, taking a few moments to RP with new players- or even returning players- and showing them around a little bit goes a long way.

Which brings me to my next point...

Too many UD players Keep their locations hidden at all times. I’ve been guilty of this in the past myself. There are times where for IC reasons I don’t want someone to know where I am, and I understand there are people who feel that way all the time, so I’m not aiming this accusation at anyone in particular, just trying to illuminate the effect it has.

I’ve logged on more than a few times recently to see there are 7 or 8 UD players on- because I know them by name- but all of their locations are hidden. I think it’s discouraging to new and/or returning players to look at the scry and see what they think is an empty UD, when in fact it’s not so empty.

This also has a chilling effect with DMs, at least according to a conversation I had with one several months ago. No point in having impromptu interactions (something I used to encounter a fair bit in the surface) when the environment seems empty or you can’t find anyone because they are all hidden.

So it’s a little bit on the players. We all need to help create an environment that others want to be a part of.

On the flip side it would also be immensely helpful if, when DMs see a gathering in the UD, they throw us a bone. A little NPC interaction in the city, a customized encounter in the wilds... just 5 or 10 minutes here and there would go a long way towards bringing the setting to life for people playing there. Also there are a lot of good RPers in the UD and the interactions might turn out to be fun anyways.

Lastly, and directly to the point of this post, yes the UD is too small, especially at epic levels. Hopefully this can be alleviated with the server split. More open areas- which are resource heavy- in particular would go a long way as there are already plenty of cramped caves to explore/get stuck on the geometry of

[JIŘÍ]

Going back on topic.

I think it's a bad idea to open up dungeons for UD races.

1. It will cause an uproar
2. PvP will increase
3. It caters only to a very specific group of players (looters grinders) and just gives mechanical advantages and no new avenues for RP

I am going to use arguments of other people.

You enter a dangerous area, where your hero is not supposed to be (a dungeon full of monsters).

You need to carry consequences - a possibility to be killed by any other monster.

What, suddenly, not suitable for role play server? Wow.

By the way, i nowhere suggested to put in KOS. I do not like any rule that griefers benefit from, and certainly i would not wish to have dungeons with KOS rule.

Common rules would apply. Either group could always escape and rally help.

No new avenues for RP? so random encounter of surface dungeon party and underdark dungeon party would not generate role play? So, why are both groups on the server when their encounters dont generate rp avenues? Do you realise what nonsence is have you written? Role play stands and falls with interactive interaction between PCs, be it friendly or hostile (with killing as last resort of rp).

Further (this directed to others), how many more areas you think would make UD playeble? If people in UD are cut off from role play with those playing above them, not a single one will help to improve UD. and if you keep adding same ammount as surface has,but keeping both areas secluded, why not make UD standalone server called Sshamat. It will have entirely same effect.

There are few features that make fun playing in UD, lets review them:

faction competition - never felt, never seen in UD, and i played there nearly a year in past.

cross characters conflicts - kept at minimum. I role played FS of eilsitraee nearly openly, pushed conflict onto necormancers for undeads, and others for demons, and evil doers isntead of standing their ground backed off and submitted or hust parted ways shaking heads in meaning "why is she so intolerant"

player run city - none, stable city, stilled waters. Not even fighting between thugs can happen in streets. Rofl. It is more peaceful than surface.

surface raids - raiders are KOs while have to submit to the common rules themselves. Even insignificant village has in terms of rp "excessive guards".

adventuring - we play adventure focused game. Everything in mechanic adheres to the role playing an adventuring hero. What can UD character explore? What do you get from exploring on surface? Just being subject to possible griefers. Who will enjoy battling trough unknown place wasting thousends and thousends gold coins and having not income back nor experiences? And do you really think adding two or three dungeons is going to fix that (well, thats going to be very naive).

I understand that server has issue with location room, but the problems with Ud are much wider, than adding few new locations.


And the debate that has started here just shows how toxic some players here are. I did not start this topic to push eilsitraeen agenda (lol). Yet several people jumped here to beat over eilsitraeens over and over. Don't you understand how ridiculous it is, guys?

This is not about if a drow can live on surface regardless who the drow is (and i have no issue play UD eilsitraeen myself). This is about general interaction between surface and underdark.

You keep saying drow (but are some other UD races) have to be super rare. How about your avarage common NPC villager is never going to meet a drow PC? But you do not play your avarage commonner who dies when orc pokes him with elbow. You all play heroes, your characters most of the time act as heroes, they go to dungeons, kill regularly drow npc. What are you playing for here? You all suddenly pretend drow parties have to be rare to keep immersion but fully ignore your PCs daily meet monsters which would commoner never seen in life even once.

[Rinzler]

The upperdark already somewhat allows for this idea. I think principally more interaction between surface and underdark PCs would be a good thing so I am in favor of 'mutual' areas. Although in lore, encounters with Drow are few and far between but practically speaking our PCs are the 1% that would run into each other. It also gives more avenues for RP especially for underdark PCs who are generally always thirsting for some type of interaction. It can be lonely down below!

Yes, PvP would increase but only from the statistical increase of encounters. However, the RP out rules could still apply as they do in the upperdark.

[Steve]

As was stated above, the answer is: Upperdark.

Use it as it was put in the Server to be used, if craving Surfacer-Uder interaction (hostile or cooperative or whatever).

[Hoihe]

The upperdark already somewhat allows for this idea. I think principally more interaction between surface and underdark PCs would be a good thing so I am in favor of 'mutual' areas. Although in lore, encounters with Drow are few and far between but practically speaking our PCs are the 1% that would run into each other. It also gives more avenues for RP especially for underdark PCs who are generally always thirsting for some type of interaction. It can be lonely down below!

Yes, PvP would increase but only from the statistical increase of encounters. However, the RP out rules could still apply as they do in the upperdark.

In the last 9 years, interactions with the Underdark as a surfacers can be summed up as:

A) UDer kidnaps surfacer and tortures them rather graphically. Shames them OOC if they want to use Heart's Ease to get over the torture and not be a mental wreck.
B) UDer kidnaps surfacer and thoroughly mutilates them. Shames them OOCly to not use Regenerate to treat the scars and disfiguration.
C) UDer kidnaps surfacer and sacrifices them on the altar of Lolth then demands they permakill their character "If they're good RPers."
D) Eilistraeen befriends surfacers, gets kidnapped to the UD and the above 3 happen, but now surfacers they befriended are forced to go rescue them if they don't want to break character causing them to suffer A-C as well.
E) 2 cases out of the 9 years where that didn't happen. One of those was an Eilistraeen that was forced to the surface by a screwed up DM who wanted to perma mutilate and disfigure their character.

I'd rather grimderp stay in the underdark.

[JIŘÍ]

The upperdark already somewhat allows for this idea. I think principally more interaction between surface and underdark PCs would be a good thing so I am in favor of 'mutual' areas. Although in lore, encounters with Drow are few and far between but practically speaking our PCs are the 1% that would run into each other. It also gives more avenues for RP especially for underdark PCs who are generally always thirsting for some type of interaction. It can be lonely down below!

Yes, PvP would increase but only from the statistical increase of encounters. However, the RP out rules could still apply as they do in the upperdark.

In the last 9 years, interactions with the Underdark as a surfacers can be summed up as:

A) UDer kidnaps surfacer and tortures them rather graphically. Shames them OOC if they want to use Heart's Ease to get over the torture and not be a mental wreck.
B) UDer kidnaps surfacer and thoroughly mutilates them. Shames them OOCly to not use Regenerate to treat the scars and disfiguration.
C) UDer kidnaps surfacer and sacrifices them on the altar of Lolth then demands they permakill their character "If they're good RPers."
D) Eilistraeen befriends surfacers, gets kidnapped to the UD and the above 3 happen, but now surfacers they befriended are forced to go rescue them if they don't want to break character causing them to suffer A-C as well.
E) 2 cases out of the 9 years where that didn't happen. One of those was an Eilistraeen that was forced to the surface by a screwed up DM who wanted to perma mutilate and disfigure their character.

I'd rather grimderp stay in the underdark.

A) Break of PG13 rule
B) Break of PG13 rule (mutilation).
C) Break of Permadeath Rule (not entitled to request that) see server rules
D) see A-C

Other possible rule breaks: Be respectful, Griefing, Godmodding.

How is it related to the topic? Are you calling all UD players to be people breaking rules, abusing others, and griefers?

[Tanlaus]

The upperdark already somewhat allows for this idea. I think principally more interaction between surface and underdark PCs would be a good thing so I am in favor of 'mutual' areas. Although in lore, encounters with Drow are few and far between but practically speaking our PCs are the 1% that would run into each other. It also gives more avenues for RP especially for underdark PCs who are generally always thirsting for some type of interaction. It can be lonely down below!

Yes, PvP would increase but only from the statistical increase of encounters. However, the RP out rules could still apply as they do in the upperdark.

In the last 9 years, interactions with the Underdark as a surfacers can be summed up as:

A) UDer kidnaps surfacer and tortures them rather graphically. Shames them OOC if they want to use Heart's Ease to get over the torture and not be a mental wreck.
B) UDer kidnaps surfacer and thoroughly mutilates them. Shames them OOCly to not use Regenerate to treat the scars and disfiguration.
C) UDer kidnaps surfacer and sacrifices them on the altar of Lolth then demands they permakill their character "If they're good RPers."
D) Eilistraeen befriends surfacers, gets kidnapped to the UD and the above 3 happen, but now surfacers they befriended are forced to go rescue them if they don't want to break character causing them to suffer A-C as well.
E) 2 cases out of the 9 years where that didn't happen. One of those was an Eilistraeen that was forced to the surface by a screwed up DM who wanted to perma mutilate and disfigure their character.

I'd rather grimderp stay in the underdark.

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but you can't be more wrong.

There have been plenty of surfacer visits to the UD in recent months. And none of them have anything to do with torture or grimdark RP.

I think anyone who has gone from Kro's Labyrinth into Mist Lake will verify they've not had hostile encounters with drow. I've personally shown a few around S'shamath.

Further Bregan D'aerthe has hosted several surface groups for RP events and none of them have been hostile.

I'm not privy to the goings on in house Selmiteyre (or however you spell it, I'm terrible with drow words) but from conversations I've had with some of their members I gather they also have interacted with surface groups in pushing an agenda of mutual interest.

I've said it before and I'l say it again, for the most part the UD is one of the safest places for surfacers to travel because players down there are just happy to have someone to RP with.

Not that there aren't players playing xenophobic drow, but they are not openly PVP hostile to outsiders.

I think that your perception of the environment is colored by past events that don't reflect the reality of the current player base. In fact they are so far off I encourage you to make an alt and see for yourself. Not that you have to play it for long but... if you're going to make blanket statements about aspects of the server then I think it would be mutually beneficial for the conversation and everyone involved to attempt to get your facts straight first.

[Snarfy]

~snip~

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but you can't be more wrong.

There have been plenty of surfacer visits to the UD in recent months. And none of them have anything to do with torture or grimdark RP.
~more snip~
I've said it before and I'l say it again, for the most part the UD is one of the safest places for surfacers to travel because players down there are just happy to have someone to RP with.

^ There is some truth to this. Admittedly I haven't been on my UD character much, but I haven't seen anything in the way that is described by Hoihe(not that I am endorsing any of that type of mutilate/sacrificial crap. Torture on the other hand... ). In fact, and as much as I would like to log on my UD more, this is actually a part of the reason I don't log him on very often... things down under are a little too accommodating for me and my character to process. Up until a week'ish ago, he had never really seen a surfacer. Then, blammo, a whole parade of them were present. It was too much to wrap my head around, and I did try, but ultimately I had to switch back to the surface(and curl up in a corner, and suck my thumb a while).

Perhaps my reluctance to log him on is partly my fault, as I, like a dumb-ass, decided to make my first and only Underdark character a very complex one to RP(he is a total RP concept build), and I find re-integrating him into the current setting FAR more challenging than it was when I initially created him. I honestly never thought it would be this much of a challenge to play an evil(and somewhat insane) character in the Underdark. I guess what I'm saying is, it's not really my cup of tea. And so, I am more than happy to bring him out for quest days, hide my location, and chug away.

I speak of dungeons not open areas spawns (in UD, perhaps only netherese ruins and duergar compound fulfill that description).

1) The secluded state right now just supports that ugly elitist feeling where multiple players think majority of server content belongs to them and others should be punished if wishing to visit it. Just take a look how everyone defended that grief rule (KOS) by arguments how UD players are idiots and bad rpers (no, none of you wrote it that open but every single post defending that griefer rule had been implying it over and over).

I was one of those who defended the KOS rule. But I sure as heck don't consider everyone bad RP'ers. I just wish there were more of a middle ground with how the UD "feels"... something not too OOC'ly cozy, but also something not IC'ly mindlessly evil.

2)It would increase variety. Right now UD characters are locked from like 80% of content on the server. It would allow people to just go somewhere else instead of one thousendth trip to duergar compound /ruins in Upper dark and enjoy the main aspect of adventurer RPG (nwn) - exploration.

I think our experiences differ greatly in terms of content down below, probably because I hardly play there. I've had a UD character for 4 or 5 years(?), he still isn't level 30, and I probably haven't seen 75% of the Underdark... mostly because I get lost as heck down there.
Now that I think about it, maybe I am not the most qualified to be posting in this thread at all. I'll shut up now.

[gedweyignasia]

Right now UD characters are locked from like 80% of content on the server.

This is a DM issue; it's up to them.