Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World BGTSCC Discussion Forum
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Last I played surface, accessible and lootable content for a level 30 likewise has the old mine in Troll Claws (CR 23? Though from what I remember the second floor has some particularly bothersome enemies), the Spirit Troll Cave in High Moor (CR 23), the Lizard Cave in Cloudpeaks (CR 23), and Orzogoth (CR ? - the ziggurat dungeon). While not dungeons per se, surface likewise has Forest of Wyrms (CR 24, connecting to two minidungeons, the one with the nightwalkers as well as CR 30 Lyran's Hold) and Reaching Woods (CR 23), both of which offer plenty of loot spots as well as XP.DiceyCZ wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:22 pm[...]It would be nice to have more diversity in dungeons we can run to grind now that we get less loot in lower CR, btw there is only one CR30 dungeon which you never hear anyone doing because it's insanely difficult. The other dungeons for lvls 30 being Serpent hills (easy and CR 23) Ice giants (can do in two with some risk CR 25) and then Grey Peaks, White Dragon wombo combo. (CR 27 and 28 needs full group). Vault of dead is also an option but it's not done often because of the amount of loot and dispelling minibosses. [...]
Big yes to these. My favorite kind of dungeons are the ones that have interactive elements, similar to the 4 pages thing that was added to gnoll caves.gedweyignasia wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:32 am - Scripted elements to explore/interactive environments
- Centrally located
I don't necessarily care about lots of chests, but I do find it slightly aggravating when the randomizer spawns less chests than what is typically found. For example, I went to frost giants the other day, and outside of the Kings room(and not counting the bag), I only found 2 chests.- Lots of chests
- Randomization of minor elements (chests, etc.)
.. maybe I do care about lots of chests after all 
Puzzles are great, until I cant figure them out, and then I typically find myself not returning to that dungeon (sorry Ulcasters, that magical pillar room gave me a conniption fit).- Randomization of key elements (e.g. randomized puzzles)
This is... and hopefully I don't sound like I'm beating a dead horse, completely relative to ones build/skill at driving their toon. We already have numerous places that are pretty damn challenging, and I almost never visit them because I prefer to adventure solo. Personal preference: not more challenging than the white dragon or Lyrans hold, something multi-layered in difficulty, so that a player could at least go explore some of it on their own(finding groups is not always easy) without dying horribly.- Extremely challenging combat
Tying it to a quest, yes please. Remote location sounds good too, maybe something like Spellhold? Available on certain days, not so much.- High bar to entry, so you can't go there often (e.g. remote location, only available with a quest, only available on certain days, etc.)
These are the three, which resonate the most with me.gedweyignasia wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:32 am - Scripted elements to explore/interactive environments
- Randomization of key elements (e.g. randomized puzzles)
- High bar to entry, so you can't go there often (e.g. remote location, only available with a quest, only available on certain days, etc.)
The Prison of Polyostilees
Challenge Rating: 25 - 29 (for a group of 4)
Description
The group enters a hexagonal room. One side holds the door, from where they entered, and the remaining five sides are each covered by a large mirror stretching from floor to ceiling. In the centre of the room is a large unlit stone brazier.
Inspecting the brazier has it spring to life with a blue flame, which is cold to the touch, and etchings begin to glow on the smooth exterior. Each etching depicts a different creature. After a few moments the flame changes to red instead, and after an equal amount of time passes it changes to green. Then the cycle starts over with blue.
Progression
Interacting with the brazier at any point starts a gathering quest.
While on the quest it is possible to collect body parts from each of the creatures depicted on the brazier.
Up to 6 different body parts can be collected this way.
Burning any combination of three different body parts in the brazier advances the quest to the start of an encounter. Any character can do this, and doing so will advance the quest for everyone in the group.
Any remaining body parts are left with the character(s) for later use.
Encounter
As each body part is deposited into the brazier, it first turns purple; then cyan; and finally white.
Once the first body part is deposited into the brazier the door behind the group closes, and cannot be opened by any means. Interacting with the brazier allows anyone to escape the room, but at the cost of a severe level drain (Restoration removes).
A few moments after the third and final body part has been deposited into the brazier, the white flame is snuffed out, and a discordant voice calls out:
"Prisoner released for interrogation. Return to holding cell after questioning."
Once this happens it is no longer possible to use the brazier to escape.
Releasing a prisoner
A powerful monster is chosen from a pool of X number of monsters. The one chosen depends on the order the body parts were deposited into the brazier.
1 of the 5 mirrors flare up, and the chosen monster steps out. If a particularly dangerous monster is chosen, then all 5 mirrors flare up instead, signaling a difficult encounter.
There is a bit of monologue from the monster, after which it turns hostile to the group, giving them a bit of time to do any last-minute preparations.
Defeating the prisoner
When the released prisoner is defeated, it retreats back into the mirror from whence it came, leaving behind loot of some kind, and keys to the reward chests.
The locked door opens, and the group can leave the room.
This will take them to a reward room, where several chests await them. From there they can leave via a second door, and return home to tell about their experiences.
Prisoner defeats the group
PCs defeated in the prison are not sent to the Fugue. Instead they are teleported to the reward room, and healed.
Here they will see the many possible chests that could have been theirs, but without defeating the prisoner, none of them can be opened.
The group can re-enter the room with the brazier to try again, but they must deposit 3 body parts into the brazier again to release a prisoner.
Notes
With 6 body parts to choose from, and 3 total used, this gives 6 * 5 * 4 = 120 options. Naturally this is too many to add all at once, so several combinations will overlap for the same monster. This does, however, present the option of adding more monsters later on, and assigning them their own set of body part combinations.
The quest should reset once per week, and once completed it is no longer possible to gather body parts until the quest has reset.
The group-wide quest progression for depositing body parts into the brazier could be done similarly to how the Orc Chieftain Head quest updates for everyone in the group, even if someone else gets the killing blow.
An idea of it requiring an item to enter, and as long as 1 member of the party has the item(s), the rest can enter shouldn't hinder grouping.Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:30 pm Two thoughts...
In terms of difficulty (in response to Snarfy who I’m too lazy to quote) I think the idea- and I could be wrong- is to have some areas that really require group play. Right now there’s not an area in the game that can’t pretty much be breezed through with a full group of 30s.
The minute something is soloable it becomes more or less trivial for an epic group.
Both ideas, being able to solo and being challenging for a group are somewhat mutually exclusive. Maybe fixable with enough scripting so I’d not say impossible, but at the very least technically difficult.
In terms of a high bar to entry, one issue that I’ve noticed for the Durlag’s challenges is that some people end up not joining a group to go down there because they completed them too recently.
Pick up groups are kind of the norm, especially with the current server population, I’d think the idea would be to encourage grouping in epic levels and not add mechanics that hinder it.
I completely agree.Hoihe wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:36 pmAn idea of it requiring an item to enter, and as long as 1 member of the party has the item(s), the rest can enter shouldn't hinder grouping.Tanlaus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:30 pm Two thoughts...
In terms of difficulty (in response to Snarfy who I’m too lazy to quote) I think the idea- and I could be wrong- is to have some areas that really require group play. Right now there’s not an area in the game that can’t pretty much be breezed through with a full group of 30s.
The minute something is soloable it becomes more or less trivial for an epic group.
Both ideas, being able to solo and being challenging for a group are somewhat mutually exclusive. Maybe fixable with enough scripting so I’d not say impossible, but at the very least technically difficult.
In terms of a high bar to entry, one issue that I’ve noticed for the Durlag’s challenges is that some people end up not joining a group to go down there because they completed them too recently.
Pick up groups are kind of the norm, especially with the current server population, I’d think the idea would be to encourage grouping in epic levels and not add mechanics that hinder it.
Maybe even encourage it organically as "I need X item but I don't have the right skills. I'll go poke that character known for their knowledge in X and ask for their help in acquiring it!"
I’m primarily a UD player who has been a big proponent of both adding UD content and making over/expanding some of the existing content.Svabodnik wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:13 pmLast I played surface, accessible and lootable content for a level 30 likewise has the old mine in Troll Claws (CR 23? Though from what I remember the second floor has some particularly bothersome enemies), the Spirit Troll Cave in High Moor (CR 23), the Lizard Cave in Cloudpeaks (CR 23), and Orzogoth (CR ? - the ziggurat dungeon). While not dungeons per se, surface likewise has Forest of Wyrms (CR 24, connecting to two minidungeons, the one with the nightwalkers as well as CR 30 Lyran's Hold) and Reaching Woods (CR 23), both of which offer plenty of loot spots as well as XP.DiceyCZ wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:22 pm[...]It would be nice to have more diversity in dungeons we can run to grind now that we get less loot in lower CR, btw there is only one CR30 dungeon which you never hear anyone doing because it's insanely difficult. The other dungeons for lvls 30 being Serpent hills (easy and CR 23) Ice giants (can do in two with some risk CR 25) and then Grey Peaks, White Dragon wombo combo. (CR 27 and 28 needs full group). Vault of dead is also an option but it's not done often because of the amount of loot and dispelling minibosses. [...]
Conversely, now playing a level 30 in UD, there is just Oghrann Ruins/Great Halls (CR 25/28, probably my favorite of the lot in terms of design of both the layout and the variety of enemies faced), Wilds Descent (CR 24), Duergar Compound/Lava Cave (the former being CR 21, just at the bare minimum of lootability, the latter being essentially a Pit Fiend boss arena surrounded by a bit of CR 24 fluff, with a net total of 3 lootable containers in the zone), and East of Mist Lake (CR 21, practically identical in function to Lava Cave, mobs around a boss fight with ~3 lootables). Supposedly there's also a means of accessing the Durlag's (CR 22) down here as well, though I haven't stumbled across it myself just yet. Finally, there's also the Netherese Ruins (CR 30), though the randomly-spawned mobs that sling Mord's Disjunction in a zone that ticks elemental damage, on top of it having a concealed map over a transition maze, doesn't make it exactly a walk in the park for all build options.
Honestly, any scrap of content would be welcome down there, as the current places to go can be practically counted on one hand. I'm under no illusion that UD content is anywhere close to the top of the staff priority, but if certain subterranean regions may be shared with backdoor access to the UD, or if such back-doors can be snuck into existing content, it would be greatly welcome.
We try not to make any game content account-specific, but character-specific. Difficult, once-per-reset checks such as the entrance to Ulcaster Ruins are a viable option for encouraging grouping, though. Especially, as you mentioned, by using skills which are less common because they have limited mechanical utility or are linked to a class.
I don't think most of you know Banovitsky's work yet, but he's a very talented and hard-working builder who's made some of the most beautiful areas I've ever seen. You're very lucky to have him there. I'm not sure which of his areas have made it in yet, but I know he went through and re-did all of the walkmeshes on Varalla's so that polymorphed players and players' summons can fit through its narrow passages now. Once the server-split happens he'll be able to add new areas and you're all in for a huge treat.
How could it be anything better than randomization to the Nth degree? The game gives diminishing returns, every game gives diminishing returns, once the Content has been experienced first hand. This is exactly why I've never, in all my years on BGTSCC, gone to the White Dragon area—I've saved myself a final surprise for the moment I decide my time has come to leave BGTSCC.gedweyignasia wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:32 am ...to revisit an area over and over and over...
- Randomized elements to explore/interactive environments
- Randomly located
- Randomization of chests
- Randomization of minor elements (chests, etc.)
- Randomization of key elements (e.g. randomized puzzles)
- Randomly and Extremely challenging combat
- Random bar to entry.