monthly favored enemy repick [ranger QOL]

[Svabodnik]

If it's done with a 1-month cooldown between changes, I'm not seeing how that will make the class considerably more powerful than before, at least in comparison to a ranger that knew the server well enough before building their character to have planned the appropriate favored enemies with the current zone makeup. Unless, of course, you're planning on only doing one dungeon each month.

[Dragonslayer]

Personally, I'm against it. We already treat a lot of roleplay aspects casually as is, and this is just another slide further down the hill. Gaining insight into hunting, tracking, and killing a creature is a core feature of the ranger class (potential kits excluded), and it makes little sense for a ranger to choose a race to pinpoint as a favored enemy to suddenly forget everything they know about killing them and suddenly learn everything there is to know about an entirely separate race.

What's more, this also seems to vaguely resemble an attempt to gain an advantage while leveling, in order to maximize damage and skills against mobs at the early levels and have the option to suddenly switch to PvP races or endgame mobs in the later ones. Call me old fashioned, but there's little to no RP justification for this and as such shouldn't be implemented.

[chad878262]

My personal opinion and not that of QC or Staff.

Ranger is indeed one of the most balanced classes on the server. They're a lot of fun to play for those who like me enjoy stealth mechanics and make for very good 'striker' PC's. While the aforementioned Pure Ranger and Ranger/Assassin are popular choices, both for archery or PTWF, there is also many R26/X4 combinations such as Cave Stalker (fits as 4, 7 or 9 levels), Fighter, Anointed Knight, Shadow Dancer, or Divine Champion as the easiest/most common examples which allows for 'full caster' levels plus other benefits which should be pretty readily easy to see. The only downside to them is really that you can either have essentially all epic area enemies as FE's or you can skip out on one or more in order to have some PvP versatility. Of course some of the PvE FE's are also good for PvP, but if you want to be PvP centric you give up your PvE strength. By allowing for changing out, even once a month you allow for players to keep their PvE strength while switching out their 'PvP focused' FE as/when needed. Another issue is it allows a Ranger, while leveling to change out FE's to optimize PvE power (i.e. Undead at 1 to do Graveyard, switching to Reptillian Humanoid for Hilltop at ~3 or 4 and then monstrous humanoid for Tasloi as example.)

Picking a new favored enemy every 5 levels focuses the selection for players on RP value where mechanical value is zero sum since picking one eliminates others. This is particularly important for multi-class Rangers where they will go more than 5 levels between picks. Allowing for changing FE's reduces the importance and value of those picks significantly which makes me personally against such a change. Ranger is my favorite D&D class, but reducing the importance of choices made IMO also reduces the value of those choices for the characters story.

The spellswapper Djinni was equally debatable, but even there I would have preferred it allow for changes less often. I will say Hoihe's post about "retraining" your PC in PnP does open up for fairly interesting discussion and it would be cool if we could implement that in some fashion, as a part of a bigger project where RP can be done over time (in addition to gold cost) in order to allow for a partial rebuild where you can change certain classes or feats (removing some in favor of others), but as with anything, it'd need to consider mechanical/engine limitations and potential for exploits.

[Young Werther]

I'm all for the (apparently kosher) package deal with the character rebuild system based off Hoihe's post. I find it hard to believe that it hasn't been discussed before? And even harder to believe it will ever be implemented.

Anyway by quality of life ranger stuff I was implying they wouldn't have to be forced to choose pvp or pve and the leveling experience would be more congruent to the content available. Not to mention upcoming zones being added, DM plot and evolution of character RP. The best QoL is delevel and RCR for now and I'm not inclined to use the expensive RCR at level 30 anymore. Furthermore for a niche class like cavalier it could make that choice more desirable. I'm not calling cavalier bad but it has limitations.

[PaulImposteur]

Sometimes instead of looking at 3.5 for the rules, or trying to crowbar in lore reasons- it'd be nice if we'd just look at an idea like this and asks if it facilitates fun for a player.

Anyone that has DM'd for Tabletop knows there's no point in having a player play a class they dislike, or if they just want to make changes to feel more adequate you should always facilitate that. At least if you want to keep a campaign alive, or in this case a server.

I think it's a good idea, I'm always a fan of giving ease of access to players. Someone's Damage bonus to a creature really really doesn't impact me. But changing it for them might make their experience just all that more fun.

[Dragonslayer]

Sometimes instead of looking at 3.5 for the rules, or trying to crowbar in lore reasons- it'd be nice if we'd just look at an idea like this and asks if it facilitates fun for a player.

Anyone that has DM'd for Tabletop knows there's no point in having a player play a class they dislike, or if they just want to make changes to feel more adequate you should always facilitate that. At least if you want to keep a campaign alive, or in this case a server.

I think it's a good idea, I'm always a fan of giving ease of access to players. Someone's Damage bonus to a creature really really doesn't impact me. But changing it for them might make their experience just all that more fun.

I'm not going to get into the long debate on whether fun for one player decreases immersion for others, but suffice to say I'm of the mind that changes that aren't grounded in realism (for the setting, not for real life) actually harms the server long term. The player admitted that the suggestion was not for any roleplaying reason, that it was merely for mechanical benefit. Those kind of suggestions and changes, while likely smoothing along individual player's increasingly easy ride to level 30, benefit a player, not a community of people that ostensibly wish to roleplay a character in the Forgotten Realms.

Just because it doesn't impact my character in an immediate fashion, you can bet that if my character ran into an undead hunting ranger who roleplays his favored enemy, and who suddenly forgot how to kill undead well, that it impacts my immersion.

[Young Werther]

I'm rather fond of rangers being able to roleplay learning and adapting to new enemy threats and not being stuck in the past all the time. It makes the setting feel more realistic and immersive to me. I mentioned evolving RP earlier and it's quite important here. I think what people are getting hung up on is the play your character sheet rule. If you play a wide variety of games and quit one for a few years then you'll not know the current meta and have to get back in the habits of playing the game again. And guess what you can always take the old favored enemy feat again if all this was allowed.

[zhazz]

Having considered the suggestion for a few days now, I don't think it has any place on this server. At least not without some cost associated with it.

The main issue I find with the suggestion is outlined below.


Character identity
Like with any role-playing game, a character has a certain identity associated with it. That identity is formed based on their personality; their traits, and what roles these traits allow them to perform. All combined: personality, traits, and roles form the identity for a character. In this context traits are defined as actions, friends, families, communities, skills, strengths/weaknesses, and learned abilities/knowledge.

That is not to say that a character's identity cannot change over time. However, such changes are always, without a fault, due to some life-altering event. An event, which either allow a character to pursue traits previously unavailable to them, or forces a character to pursue new traits.

Several examples of forced changing of traits can be found in the many Forgotten Realms novels written over the years. Some such examples include: an archer, damaged in combat, is unable to draw their bow, and instead decides to learn magic; an evil priestess witnesses the destruction of her city, and abandons her faith to find a new purpose in life.

For a character to suddenly change part of themselves, and in such a manner that they forget what has taken them months (if not years) to learn, is not consistent with maintaining character identity. There must be some event, which triggers this change.

That is where the suggestion falls apart for me:
A monthly change to traits, in this case learned abilities. Abilities only obtained through fervent practice and study. Losing such abilities, without good reason, goes against everything related to character identity.

Some will undoubtedly say that spell-swapping fall under the same definition. To an extent they do, except that wizards require study of a spell in their spell book to memorize it. If the spell is not in their spell book, the wizard cannot memorize it. The wizard might remember the spell, what it does, and even the words and phrases to it, but without imprinting the spell into their mind first, they are unable to cast it. It gets a little wonky for sorcerers, but it follow the same rules, although their imprinted spells are granted by the nature of their heritage. A heritage, which allows them to "forget" an imprinted spell in order to replace it with another.

Keep in mind here that the character identity for both a wizard and sorcerer doesn't change just because they change the spells they have access to. They still remain wielders of arcane magic. Whereas a ranger, who has studied orcs to become a proficient hunter of such creatures, will no longer be a proficient hunter of orcs, if they swap it out for something else. To do so for the ranger is equivalent to a divination specialized wizard changing to abjuration specialization instead. It changes who they are; the identity they have built for themselves; and the identity others attribute to them.

And, as mentioned previously, changes to character identity only happen because of major events.

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All that being said, I do like the idea of a character capable of studying an enemy to gain bonuses against that enemy. However, I believe it would be better implemented as a Class-Kit for the Ranger, where they do not receive any Favored Enemy feats at all. Instead they can study an enemy to gain bonuses against that particular type of creature, for a limited duration. Class Level then determine the bonuses, with success determined by a skill roll (eg. Survival).

Optionally such a Class-Kit could rely on Teleport-esque logic, where repeated success against a given type of enemy increases the likelyhood of success (and even bonuses?) against enemies of the same type.

Obviously any such Class-Kit would need to balanced so it doesn't make the regular Ranger obsolete. There numerous ways to do such, but that, including expanding upon the above, is best handled in a different thread.

[Young Werther]

zhazz thank you (and everyone else) for giving it some real thought and encouraging further discussions.

Having considered the suggestion for a few days now, I don't think it has any place on this server. At least not without some cost associated with it.

I agree the cost aspect is too low and free monthly is a bit of a reach. I would want some cost that isn't re-grind XP for hours on end as I feel the ranger is more adaptive than that. I don't like grinding or even regular role-playing in hubs getting convo xp. I like adventuring in new areas and forming different parties to do so. I think having an adaptive class encourages all that and the ranger and cavalier should be more adaptive to enemies.

I do like the idea of a character capable of studying an enemy to gain bonuses against that enemy. However, I believe it would be better implemented as a Class-Kit for the Ranger, where they do not receive any Favored Enemy feats at all.

I would love a kit that let's you study an enemy and gain the flexibility I desire in usage of the favored enemy feat. It reminds me of the Slayer class in pathfinder.



If anyone wants to start a new thread of any ideas here by all means do so. I'll stay out of them because I've spoke my piece(s) throughout this thread and, truly, am not invested in the server anymore as much as others; you may be as lucky to have me start a new thread a year from now when the server has hopefully had major transformations and additions.

In the end maybe it's just me that shouldn't play a ranger? I can pick a different favored something.

[MrSmith]

For a character to suddenly change part of themselves, and in such a manner that they forget what has taken them months (if not years) to learn, is not consistent with maintaining character identity. There must be some event, which triggers this change.

Agreed. This is also consistent with the Hero’s Journey model.

That is where the suggestion falls apart for me: A monthly change to traits, in this case learned abilities. Abilities only obtained through fervent practice and study.

Agreed. For me, it’s the frequency of the change… not that actual change that is troublesome. One FE a year is more than adequate with an RP reason to support.

Losing such abilities, without good reason, goes against everything related to character identity.

As for good reason –Rangers gain “favored enemy” proficiencies through repetitive encounters with the same type of threats on the outskirts of civilization, learning their sign, tracks, scents, behaviors, and tactics in a specific environment. This familiarity eventually transforms the Ranger into the apex predator for this specific region or domain. This same Ranger may feel compelled to defend and serve a new town or city on the edge of another civilization with new threats… If the Ranger feels compelled to go, the reason was good enough for him or her.

[Lambe]

I'm all for this. Speaking as someone who plays a pure level 30 ranger, I'd say only one (maybe two) of my favored enemies are populating level appropriate areas. This forces my choices of dungeon play to a very select few. Add to that the recent loot changes that further funnels my area choices. On top of both of that, the epic areas I can benefit from, perhaps by design, have a mix of mobs that negate much of the bonuses I get from said FE choices. Truth is, mobs at low levels don't populate the higher ones, rangers quickly outgrow their choices. I'll argue it's a side effect of level design.

Now I admit, I didn't choose those enemies for the meta aspect (i.e. undead, etc). It's what made sense for the character at the time. Keep in mind that most ranger builds are dex-based and the sort of enemies encountered at high levels often negate their effectiveness because of DR. Favored Enemies helps a ton with that, IF that specific enemy actually shows up.

[Terankar]

Many options.

I would say that make it a 3 month period for each change and 50k xp as payment.

Retraining must be roleplayed as well, so if a DM was to supervise these, it would be quite is to identify

[Wolfrayne]

Can i change my domains every couple of weeks then to make sure im getting the right spells to deal with the right areas too?

[Hydros]

Just want to note that you already can change your favored enemies with ease. You just have to talk to the RCR NPC in the nexus, it works for changing a lot of stuff, Favored enemies, Domains, Alignment, Gods, Classes. It's a really neat feature.

[Snarfy]

A monthly reshuffle feature for favored enemies is completely unnecessary/WAY over the top, AFAIC, because...

... it makes little sense for a ranger to choose a race to pinpoint as a favored enemy to suddenly forget everything they know about killing them and suddenly learn everything there is to know about an entirely separate race.

What's more, this also seems to vaguely resemble an attempt to gain an advantage while leveling, in order to maximize damage and skills against mobs at the early levels and have the option to suddenly switch to PvP races or endgame mobs in the later ones.