Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:25 pm Edited to Add: I want to make sure that people understand that "Flirting" is NOT the same as "Sexual Harassment" either. They are two, separate, distinct things. And yes, if you are uncomfortable with your toon being sexually harassed, that's a whole different issue than being flirted with.

JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:02 pm But for an example. Let's say I make a male toon. And that male toon becomes attracted to a female toon. He begins flirting with her. She ICly tells him to stop, but he's a hopeless romantic and thinks he can win her over. So he continues to flirt with her.

So, in real life, I don't think most people who sexually harass others do so because they see themselves as a mustache-twirling sexual harasser villain. I think they see themselves as a romantic whose persistence will win out in the end like it does in the movies they watch.

When someone tells you to stop and you do not stop, that is literally what sexual harassment is.

Roofshadow wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:48 pm So, in real life, I don't think most people who sexually harass others do so because they see themselves as a mustache-twirling sexual harasser villain. I think they see themselves as a romantic whose persistence will win out in the end like it does in the movies they watch.

When someone tells you to stop and you do not stop, that is literally what sexual harassment is.

And if their bio says "please do NOT do the following sexual/romantic themed things" but you feel that it doesn't suit your character then yes that is also sexual harrassment. You can't blame it on your character. You're consciously making the choice to do something against sometimes wishes.

I'm glad xorena posted this as a reminder to the community.

The first several things on the list absolutely require consent from both sides. However, we are playing an RP game. Things like flirting, we should find out ICly that the character is uncomfortable with it, and then act as appropriate ICly. Otherwise we are merely playing an MMO, and playing mechanics rather than playing a community told story.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:15 pm If someone is expressing that they are OOCly uncomfortable with something, you stop. Flat out. You can figure out a reason why your character would break off their attraction to that character. If you continue doing something even after knowing that it's OOCly bothering another person, that's wrong.

It's not harassment to make a pass or whatever else if you aren't aware a player doesn't like it. If they tell you it bothers them OOC, you apologize and stop, no harm done. If you continue doing it despite being told it is uncomfortable for them, that is harassment.

I don't even know why there's even any argument beyond this. Plain and simple.

This is a fantasy game on a PG-13 server, and if players want to express their disinterest in romantic RP by putting an OOC remark in their description asking for a refrain from such from other players, they have every right to do so. And, the obvious and considerate thing that players reading said requests can do is respect their wishes.

i believe the contrary. we are not an mmo, for this exact reason, we care about other community members and adjust our IC and OOC actions appropriately as a result

JustAnotherGirl wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:53 pm The first several things on the list absolutely require consent from both sides. However, we are playing an RP game. Things like flirting, we should find out ICly that the character is uncomfortable with it, and then act as appropriate ICly. Otherwise we are merely playing an MMO, and playing mechanics rather than playing a community told story.

But if their bio says they don't want something, possibly because of past trauma or just discomfort then you're consciously disregarding their feelings as another player. If people cannot be flexible in IC about matters of sexual harrassment then I agree with Steve. This isn't the game for them.

Snarfy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:56 pm

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:15 pm If someone is expressing that they are OOCly uncomfortable with something, you stop. Flat out. You can figure out a reason why your character would break off their attraction to that character. If you continue doing something even after knowing that it's OOCly bothering another person, that's wrong.

It's not harassment to make a pass or whatever else if you aren't aware a player doesn't like it. If they tell you it bothers them OOC, you apologize and stop, no harm done. If you continue doing it despite being told it is uncomfortable for them, that is harassment.

I don't even know why there's even any argument beyond this. Plain and simple.

This is a fantasy game on a PG-13 server, and if players want to express their disinterest in romantic RP by putting an OOC remark in their description asking for a refrain from such from other players, they have every right to do so. And, the obvious and considerate thing that players reading said requests can do is respect their wishes.

If players really feel like they should be able to play this out in character then perhaps we can give them a free feat:

Wildshape: Red flag

I agree 100% with Xorena. If there is something, anything, you're not comfortable with, whether it's OOC or IC, it should be brought to impartial members of Staff. Remember, it's just a game. The point of it is to have fun in a comfortable enviorement.

Thanks for bringing this up, it's a very important issue that tends to be forgotten in NWN2 community.

Well. I can see that my opinion is not popular here. And I'm feeling personally attacked by some of these responses, rather than opening a dialogue where people can express ideas and opinions and come to either a consensus or a disagreement knowing where the other stands. So, in that vein, I will bow out. I wanted to challenge some points, and be challenged in return. But instead I feel like I'm being painted as the villain here.

Granted, not all of the responses are doing that, but there is enough where I'm feeling attacked and shouted down rather than talked to. Not saying I won't post again in this thread. We'll see how it goes.

In parting, I want to say that I don't feel my entire post was taken into account during responses. Only nit-picked. And I didn't even bring up the fact that what is flirting with one person isn't flirting to another, so we're trying to establish a hard line on a subjective matter.

JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:07 pm Well. I can see that my opinion is not popular here. And I'm feeling personally attacked by some of these responses, rather than opening a dialogue where people can express ideas and opinions and come to either a consensus or a disagreement knowing where the other stands. So, in that vein, I will bow out. I wanted to challenge some points, and be challenged in return. But instead I feel like I'm being painted as the villain here.

Granted, not all of the responses are doing that, but there is enough where I'm feeling attacked and shouted down rather than talked to. Not saying I won't post again in this thread. We'll see how it goes.

I'm sorry that you feel that way.

However, as moderators we are keeping a close eye on this one because it IS a very important topic, and we want to ensure a full dialog is had.

So far I dont see any personal attacks or 'shouting down'. I see well thought out, relevant replies.

We will ask that it stays that way, so that everyone has a chance to speak their mind. Please limit the jokes, keep replies focused on ideas and not people, and handle this with the sobriety and careful attention it deserves.

Thanks

JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:07 pm Well. I can see that my opinion is not popular here. And I'm feeling personally attacked by some of these responses, rather than opening a dialogue where people can express ideas and opinions and come to either a consensus or a disagreement knowing where the other stands. So, in that vein, I will bow out. I wanted to challenge some points, and be challenged in return. But instead I feel like I'm being painted as the villain here.

Granted, not all of the responses are doing that, but there is enough where I'm feeling attacked and shouted down rather than talked to. Not saying I won't post again in this thread. We'll see how it goes.

I think this is because harassment issue (both IRL and the one described in the thread) is something that female players, sadly, encounter. Being a male player, your chances to find yourself in the same situation are almost non-existant. This is something that is not important for you, but important for them. As people above mentioned, it's not about being wary of romantic RP, it's when someone tells you OOCly it makes them uncomfortable you have to step back. It can't be compared to situations such as PvP-out abuse, it is a completely different topic.

JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:07 pm And I didn't even bring up the fact that what is flirting with one person isn't flirting to another, so we're trying to establish a hard line on a subjective matter.

And that's fine. Different people will have different thresholds. The main point is that if someone asks another player OOC to stop doing something, because it is making them OOCly uncomfortable, then it doesn't matter what it is, or why they're bothered by it, that player needs to stop doing it.

I'm sorry you feel put upon by responses, that you're being cast as a villain, or that your post was being 'nitpicked'. You know I don't have any issue with you, personally, and I enjoy your RP. It's just that harassment can be a very big problem for some people, so it needs to be laid out straight.

JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:02 pm However, your example of being "hit on" or "pursued for relationships". That's just a part of life. You can't control if someone is attracted to you and makes a pass at you IRL. Nor should you be able to control if a toon makes a pass at you in game. I have a simple rule that obviously has exceptions, but works as a rule of thumb. "Whoever takes it out of character first is in the wrong". Again, there are exceptions.

It's part of life, but it doesn't have to be part of BGTSCC. If someone tells you to stop harassing their character, your "hopeless romantic" can find someone else to bother. Think of it like a PVP out. People deal with enough harassment in RL that they shouldn't have to deal with it here under the guise of RP.

After stepping away from the thread for a couple hours, going on a short drive, and chatting with some people in discord, I decided to revisit this thread. Hopefully what I have to say will be listened to.

Before I begin, I want to point out that this:

I think this is because harassment issue (both IRL and the one described in the thread) is something that female players, sadly, encounter. Being a male player, your chances to find yourself in the same situation are almost non-existant. This is something that is not important for you, but important for them.

is unwelcome, and antithetical to a discussion. Yes, I am a male. Yes, males are much less likely to encounter harassment and assault, sexual or otherwise. But it happens, and no one here knows me or my story. And likely you never will. For now, suffice it to say that yes, I do have a dog in this fight. Dismissing someone's opinion because of their sex/gender is wrong.

Now, back to the subject matter.

I absolutely agree that harassment is an issue. I absolutely agree that if someone is uncomfortable with something, they should speak up. And I absolutely agree that if someone speaks up and then the behavior continues, it is harassment. And I don't want to belittle anyone's experiences that lead to them having the comfort zones that they have, like my experiences have been in the above quote.

However, for me and my wife, we have a scale when it comes to comfort level. We realize that we cannot control everyone's actions, and that some things will make for a better story, even if it's not how we want it to work out. We have soft lines, and we have hard lines. If something crosses a hard line, it's an instant report. I had to do this just this past week. But some behaviors, we have to take a look and say "I don't like this. But does it cross a line I'm unwilling to let be crossed?"

Then, we have to decide what to do about the offending party. "They crossed this line. Do we report it, or just stay away from them?" Essentially. I personally try not to report anything I can either live with, or avoid, unless it crosses a hard line. I have a couple toons that even if I'm in deep RP, if they show up, I leave the area. If the behavior is totally OOC, like sending /t and such, obviously that can't be avoided, and must be reported.

The issue with flirting, is we have such a large gray area, that is subjective on both sides. Let me be clear. Harassment isn't subjective, but flirting is. A wink may or may not be flirting. A compliment may or may not be flirting. Even a grin or smirk may or may not be flirting. So, if we have a behavior that one takes as flirting, but the other person does not, we have created an issue. "I told him OOC to stop flirting, but he did it anyway", whereas, from the player's perspective there was no flirting. Rather than get rid of harassment, we have then created an atmosphere of hostility. And that is what I'm trying to avoid here.

No one wants to have to think, "Is it ok if I do this action?" It should be clear what is ok and what is not. And that is the issue I have with flirting. Especially knowing myself, when I (both IC/IRL) have been told I was flirting when it was not my intent at all. I was on a college trip (Even though I was in my 30s) and my roommate was surprised to see me come to my room one night. He literally told me, "I thought you were going to be sleeping with x tonight". Here I was, a married man with three kids, just being nice to a woman, and evidently my whole class on my trip thought I was flirting with this girl who was ten years younger than I was. On top of that, she thought I was going to spend the night with her. When I absolutely did not intend to send those signals.

So yes. Flirting is a volatile subject for me when people try to make it an objective line. Because what one person believes is flirting may not be intended. So, even if told OOCly, "Don't flirt with my toon, it makes me uncomfortable", we are now opening the doors to many "he said, she said" moments if we try to report it as harassment, rather than just avoiding the offender, assuming that the behavior continues purely IC.

Hopefully my point now is a lot clearer, and people will read the whole thing.

I myself am open to many kinda of RP. I have been "tortured" held captive and more. Most RP I have come across has been the *Fades to black* RP. That being said I feel that what it ultimately comes down to is communication and understanding from everyone.

If your not OK with something that has happen ICly you should be able to just said a quick tell saying "I am not comfortable continuing this line of RP"

Players trying to do something that might be touchy its best to Ask beforehand! "Hey are you OK with me hitting on your PC ICly?"

However, if you are ICly uncomfortable you are allowed to leave the area. Most peoples friends will follow to keep the RP going "Ew, this guy is creepy let's go to _______"

If you don't want to leave the area entirely then make your own campfire the PC tools will let you and friends "Set up" your own area.

If it continues after you told them both ICly and OOCly then that person is just an idiot and you should screenshot and report them to DMs. People that can't understand this should not play online Ever.
And if this statement offends anyone, you might just be one of these people.

If someone kindly ask you to stop, just stop. Move on and find another line of RP there are players who enjoy both good and "evil" RP no one is trying to God mod anyone's RP.

OOC Harassment is NEVER ok.

Discord has blocking methods, forums can block people. You control who interact with you.