Intuitive Attack -- Remove Monk Level Requirement

[Deathgrowl]

How do you get 14 wisdom mod for the AC on the first build with 5 epic feats? 20 + 7 + 5 + 4 = 36, 13 wisdom mod. And that's foregoing epic prowess, expose weakness and blazing aura.

[YYA]

How do you get 14 wisdom mod for the AC on the first build with 5 epic feats? 20 + 7 + 5 + 4 = 36, 13 wisdom mod. And that's foregoing epic prowess, expose weakness and blazing aura.

Also, some minor corrections, Implosion has +3 to DC and the Deep Gnome build I used as an example cannot innately have wisdom modifier of 14 and the Epic Spell focus on this server. Even if you start with 20 wisdom, you would need to put all ability score increases into wisdom and spend your all five epic feats on Great Wisdom to end up at 32, which would be 36 with the +4 Wisdom item or spell, and thus result with an innate Wisdom modifier of mere +13. My bad. Anyhow, if you spend two of those epic feats on Vampiric Feast and Epic Spell Focus, you would end up at +12 wisdom, which could be bumped up to +16 through the use of a Owl's Insight Elixir. Anyhow, it doesn't really have a such a big effect in things due to the close proximity of the AB bonus cap.

But since you were not satisfied with the quoted text, how about: Well, you do not actually max out your wisdom and instead make use of those Caster Level 30 Elixirs for Owl's Insight, which grant +12 to wisdom. It will costs gold, but on any ancient server, gold is not an issue to some players. Therefore, in order to get +14 wisdom modifier you need 38 wisdom, which is achievable through base 26 wisdom and Owl's Insight. This in turn allows you to start with a lower Wisdom ability score, and increase Constitution for Hit Points, or Intelligence for Skill Points, or whatever, which in turn allows you to spend your epic feats for something else entirely, such as Epic PRowess, Expose Weakness.

Also, Blazing Aura requires Monk 13 for Diamond Soul, which means that a Monk 3/Cleric 7/Sacred Fist 10/Hierophant 10 cannot get it. Moreover, since such a build gained its Stunning Fists through the Monk class, it would have a total of three uses of Stunning Fist. If you want more Monk levels for extra uses of Stunning Fist, Hierophant still requires access to 7th level spells, so "Cleric 13" in spell casting terms. Sacred Fist has spell casting progression of 8/10, and you need at least three levels of each by level 20. Therefore you have to go Monk 3/Cleric 7/Sacred Fist 7/Hierophant 3 pre-epic just to gain access to Hierophant PRC, after which you could go to Monk 5/Cleric 7/Sacred Fist 10/Hierophant 8, and still end up at caster level of 30 -- but you would do it to get -1 AB from Flurry of Blows instead of -2, isntead of two extra uses of Stunning Fist.

As for a build that goes for Monk 13, probably Monk 16, such a build would likely take Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10, which is 6th level spells and caster level of 16, which ought to be a 'bye-bye' to self-cast buffs if we are to believe Hoihe's statements about this Server's Dispels.

Did you just make an entire topic dedicated to you, countering your own logic?

As I said earlier, who is left on this server to argue about these things? And even if I hadn't, the argument would have gone more or less the same way over a month or so.

[mrm3ntalist]

As I said earlier, who is left on this server to argue about these things?

You came back, so maybe others will as well

I am mostly curious to see what they wil ldecide on this - if the decide anything or even discuss it. On one hand they limit the access to hierophant because apparently you cannot be a melee cleric casting buffs and a hierophant, while with that change it will give a very good option for monk clerics to be very good at both - High DC spells and good AB in combat and Hierophant.

[YYA]

I am mostly curious to see what they wil ldecide on this - if the decide anything or even discuss it. On one hand they limit the access to hierophant because apparently you cannot be a melee cleric casting buffs and a hierophant, while with that change it will give a very good option for monk clerics to be very good at both - High DC spells and good AB in combat and Hierophant.

Well, as argued, it can already be done right now, just start with 16 strength and add that +6 from Divine Power and +8 AB, +5 from Greater Magic Weapon, +3 from Divine Favour, with all the other little AB boosts towards the AB cap and all those other imaginable Heirophant builds will also reach that 40-50 points of AB, and without the -2 from Flurry of Blows.

22 (BAB of Cleric 20/Hierophant 10)
+ 6 (Strength Modifier)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
+ 8 (Divine Power)
+ 3 (Divine Favour)
+ 1 (Bless)
+ 1 (Potion of Haste)
+ 2 (Potion of Heroism)
= 48!

And that is literally without any feats spent on anything, just starting strength of 16, which you can easily afford to have on just about any character without racial penalty on it -- because clerics can just tank it out with shields and heavy plate.

Yes, high wisdom Hierophants can benefit from the change, but not really beyond what they already do through other means currently available. Not to mention that Zen Archery slinging on a Hierophant build would nevertheless result in an even higher AB than they could with Intuitive Strike, while slinging behind a wall of summons, etc.

And once again, it must be stressed that lifting the Monk restriction on Intuitive Strike would benefit quite a number of other type of characters. For example, you could make a Wisdom based fighter without monk levels if you wanted, and make use of Stunning Fist just as the suggested Phantom build before. The way I see it, time has moved past the need to restrict Intuitive Strike to just Monks.

You came back,

That is not yet written in stone.

[Theodore01]

Yeah, let's remove the 2/3 Monk Level Requirement, but add monk lv5 as a new requirement! (As was done with SB Insightful Strike)

[EasternCheesE]

Honestly, just asking for "Let's remove x restriction" or "let's add Y" just means Devs and QC have to think hard in order to check if that is going to produce wicked OP builds or make something underpowered and another no-brainer to take. Also, builders will have hard times balancing their dungeons.

Please, when you propose something, give all the pros and cons you can imagine so it's actually a constructive suggestion rather than "How can it hurt?".
Many things that look small, can, in fact, shift server and build focus a lot, so we try to approach those cautiously.
Allowing anyone to take intuitive attack, for example, opens a lot of "kill sneakers" builds that weren't possible before since wis + spot synergy.
There surely are other balance shifts that can happen. So, if you suggestion and discussion reveal as much of pros/cons not for class only, but for anything that can be affected (say, one class becoming stronger), it's has way higher chances to get faster Dev decision on it.

I don't say this particular topic has anything in common with what i said, i just try to remind that the more constructive players are, the less job it is for Devs aside from coding things.

[Steve]

I used to play a Monk 11 / Fighter 12 / Weaponmaster 7 STR high build with quarter staff. The AC wasn’t good at all.

But if I could put Intuitive Attsck in that build, it would gain AC, Spot of course, DC for Stunning Staff Strike or whatever, with just a little bit of dmg sacrificed (easily made back with a wand of Flame Weapon).

Just one example where the change would gift a power buff.

NERF ALL BUFFS!!!

[YYA]

Allowing anyone to take intuitive attack, for example, opens a lot of "kill sneakers" builds that weren't possible before since wis + spot synergy.

Ah, speaking of stealth based characters, you can already make builds that can defeat stealth based characters without any investment in detection skills. For example, if the stealth based characters makes use of two-weapon fighting and your character is beefy enough, just wear fullplate with tower shield, assign keys for next hostile target and the default action, and then you can just start pressing those two buttons with a steady rhythm. When our sneak pops out of stealth... tries to WASD away... it doesn't always mean your character's attacks stop at the first attack flurry. Drink a potion of lesser restoration to get rid of the Crippling strike damage, munch a few healing kits, and whoever runs out of supplies first will lose this fight. I remember how some fight took 30 or so minutes before we agreed to fight another day. Never did.

The simply truth is, a lot of builds can kill sneaks, especially non-magical ones -- and if someone wants to kill sneaks there are already a great multitude of ways to do it. This even invludes non-magical wisdom based builds thanks to existence of Zen Archery and the automatic search mode of the Elvenkind. You see someone hooded slowly walk towards you? Toggle hostile and let loose the Manyshot attack. So I tend look at it as I would look at living in Australia; if everything is already out there to kill you, what difference does it make if someone somewhere finds another species of rare spiders that can also kill you?

Sadly there is no expaing the fact that non-magical sneaks are very dependent on their stealth skills, and the moment someone can detect them once, they will be detected all the time. The game simply makes way too many detection rolls, which means that these stealth based characters are in a situation where it is all or nothing. It sucks, it really does, but sadly there is no escaping it on NWN2 as the game just is what it is. What can I say, instead of Epic Dodge, perhaps stealth based characters should instead try to acquire "Self-Concealment 40%"? It's dexterity requirement has been lowered to 27 on this server from the default 30.

And, well, I think I also have to point out and ask what kind of player interactions does this server actually offer to stealth based characters? Spying of other players? It is valid role-play and what not, but at the same time one needs to come to terms with the very fact how few people desire to be spied upon. There are also players who are more competitive than others, which means that these players do not wish to lose the Stealth-Detection arms race, because they do not wish to be spied upon. If you wish to take it as such, there is a small saving grace here, the amount of players on this server is limited and therefore so is the amount of players with an intentional desire to beat the Stealth-Detection arms race. These players, in all due likelihood, already have characters to 'kill sneakers' -- so it is really just like a discovery of new deadly spider in Australia, what else is new.

And yes, most of my characters on this server have tended to have very high Spot or Listen skills, with or without the wisdom investment. So yeah, a bit of a 'blind spot' there when it comes to sneaks.

But anyhow, let us speak of the build Steve posted:

I used to play a Monk 11 / Fighter 12 / Weaponmaster 7 STR high build with quarter staff. The AC wasn’t good at all.

But if I could put Intuitive Attsck in that build, it would gain AC, Spot of course, DC for Stunning Staff Strike or whatever, with just a little bit of dmg sacrificed (easily made back with a wand of Flame Weapon).

Just one example where the change would gift a power buff.

And you would no longer get to use Improved Knockdown with such great success, which monks get for free, although I remember this server having way too many Knockdown immunities simply because every single Frenzied Weapon Master kept spamming it for years and years. But that said, wisdom is not the only way to acquire AC, because you could have gone for high dexterity, combine it with Perfect Two-weapon fighting, pair of Kamas, and expose weakness bleeding damage. Can you say hello to the 17 attacks per round before a wand of Haste and Flame Weapon?

Anyhow, I would just like to repeat that any build that would make use of restrictionless Intuitive Attack would just meet the enchantment cap of +20 AB sooner, rather than later. There will be people who will think it is a great boon to their build, and perhaps it truly is, but mostly because they have not really strived to reach the AB bonus cap through other means. There are people who complain about the excessive need to buff, there are people who complain about the need use UMD consumables, and if this change goes in, you could advice some of them to take the Intuitive Attack feat. Some people will still complain that it allows wisdom based casters reach high AB, while the players of the very same clerics will still respond in kind how their characters lack damage. Same old, same old, except that you could make more unconventional wisdom based melee characters, which would still be more or less inferior to their Zen Archery variants. I mean -- Monk 3/Cleric 7/Sacred Fist 10/Hierophant 10 is nice and all that, but I would still play a Rogue 3/Cleric 7/Black Flame Zealot/Hierophant 10 to land Zen Archery Sneak Attacks behind a bunch of summons.

[mrm3ntalist]

I used to play a Monk 11 / Fighter 12 / Weaponmaster 7 STR high build with quarter staff. The AC wasn’t good at all.

But if I could put Intuitive Attsck in that build, it would gain AC, Spot of course, DC for Stunning Staff Strike or whatever, with just a little bit of dmg sacrificed (easily made back with a wand of Flame Weapon).

Just one example where the change would gift a power buff.

NERF ALL BUFFS!!!

Isnt going for Intuitive attack, the same as going for a finesse build (using a different weapon of course )? You gain AB and AC and lose damage. Obviously each Stat give different bonuses as well ( DEX Stealth, EW damage reflex saves while WIS gives Spot, DCs for monks etc)

I dont think the above build would become OP since it would sacrifice Damage which is very important for builds with WM

[Steve]

Couldn't finesse quarterstaff, back in the day. If I had as nice a shortstaff as I have a quarterstaff, then yes, Weapon Finesse would have made a good option.

But Wisdom + Intuitive attack also bolsters Sudden Willow Strike, which is Stunning Fists when you wield a quarterstaff. I nice perk!

[mrm3ntalist]

But Wisdom + Intuitive attack also bolsters Sudden Willow Strike, which is Stunning Fists when you wield a quarterstaff. I nice perk!

Thats true, but similarly DEX helps with stealth, damage from EW and so on. What I am trying to say is that Weapon Finesse and Intuitive attack have similar benefits and consequences. Obviously some classes can benefit more from one over another

[Steve]

But Wisdom + Intuitive attack also bolsters Sudden Willow Strike, which is Stunning Fists when you wield a quarterstaff. I nice perk!

Thats true, but similarly DEX helps with stealth, damage from EW and so on. What I am trying to say is that Weapon Finesse and Intuitive attack have similar benefits and consequences. Obviously some classes can benefit more from one over another

Yeah, absolutely, and if I had never traded my Kama +4 w/ vamp Regen +3 to mreider, I'd be putting that to use with EITHER WF or IA!!!

[mrm3ntalist]

Yeah, absolutely, and if I had never traded my Kama +4 w/ vamp Regen +3 to mreider, I'd be putting that to use with EITHER WF or IA!!!

Do not lie, it was +3EB +3Vamp regen. I have it now

[Steve]

Yeah, absolutely, and if I had never traded my Kama +4 w/ vamp Regen +3 to mreider, I'd be putting that to use with EITHER WF or IA!!!

Do not lie, it was +3EB +3Vamp regen. I have it now

Bastard! Well, now I feel better that it was +3...cause I got a equivalent katana +4 out of it!!

[mrm3ntalist]

Bastard! Well, now I feel better that it was +3...cause I got a equivalent katana +4 out of it!!

touché