Permadeath, XP, and you

[Tekill]

@ Almarea90
You quote my entire post giving me the impression you are about to comment on the entire things as a whole. But then you take four words from it, and put them in quotation marks. Then you make the presumption that those four words only mean one of two things.
It's a perfect example of how many of us read and respond to opposing arguments on the internet. The difference being your example was very well written.

I found Moonsong's reply even funnier.

Players should be able to choose. Period.

Period?
Ohhhhh, period!
Well that sums everything up perfectly. No need say anything more on the matter.....because, period.

Yes, my use of the four words: "lets up the difficulty" was misinterpreted and means much more than just two things.

If I can sum up my post in a couple words it is that, I can no longer ignore the power creep on this server as a player. We are all immortal Demigods while pretentiously pretending or play acting, to be mortal adventurers and I think that's silly.

This server is neither PnP nor is it a Persistent World, because it is no longer a game at all. We can not lose - therefore it is not a game.

If you are fine logging into a Social RP server to play pretend, then that is great. You found what you are looking for.

I'm just asking you to stop pretending you are playing a game, especially a game with any sort of challenge to it.

If you want to play a persistent world or if you want to play D&D then "lets up the difficulty"

Its best we all as a community come to a decision on exactly what that means.

Does it mean server wipe, lower exp gains, lower magic to plus 3, maybe 4, removing epic gear and inclusion of Permadeath?
Or simply
Remove Raise Dead scrolls, and give a stricter death penalties, especially to level 30s?

I think it would be cool if each time you die there is a percentage chance you earn a death token or death strike. And after so many death tokens/strikes you are perma dead. Maybe this only happens once you reach level 30. Maybe certain stats increase/decrease this percentage or number of strikes. Perhaps there are even ways to have death tokens/strikes removed.

We are smart people. I am sure there are all sorts of ways to make BGTSCC an actual RPG, again.

[Blame The Rogue]

challenge is relative to class/class combo/gear/and player experience. raising the difficulty might seem a good idea, but after you break it down, it's not going to hurt a power build, but it will indeed hurt absolutely everyone else

my fighter doesnt feel like his job is easy. a monkey-gripping cleric on the other hand may feel differently

edit: i'm not saying that people that want to play that cleric shouldnt be able to, i'm just saying that it is never a good idea to balance a server against the strongest class/build or other outlier, as the server needs to remain playable for everyone. everyone should be able to play what they want, and still be able to function. this is especially important on a rp server, where rp is directly connected to class and class type

[mastajabba]

I have a personal rule/code that I stick to;

All my characters 3 deaths (non resurrected/raised) and I delete them. I think endless trips through Mirkul’s feuge is ridiculous.

I only have one lvl 30 character because I baby him and only use him with my Guild Mates.

It sucks specially when really like the character like Cado my Siamorphe Blackguard, Gerhard my Helmite Witchhunter ect ect.

But at least I feel vested in decisions and I grind very selectively. Makes the chars that more impacting to my enjoyment not NPC’s.

[Blame The Rogue]

everyone has a different opinion and point of view. everyone has different ideas and preferences. everyone is welcome to all those things. the server however, needs to be a place that accepts all these different things

[Lambe]

@ Almarea90
You quote my entire post giving me the impression you are about to comment on the entire things as a whole. But then you take four words from it, and put them in quotation marks. Then you make the presumption that those four words only mean one of two things.
It's a perfect example of how many of us read and respond to opposing arguments on the internet. The difference being your example was very well written.

I found Moonsong's reply even funnier.

Players should be able to choose. Period.

Period?
Ohhhhh, period!
Well that sums everything up perfectly. No need say anything more on the matter.....because, period.

Yes, my use of the four words: "lets up the difficulty" was misinterpreted and means much more than just two things.

If I can sum up my post in a couple words it is that, I can no longer ignore the power creep on this server as a player. We are all immortal Demigods while pretentiously pretending or play acting, to be mortal adventurers and I think that's silly.

This server is neither PnP nor is it a Persistent World, because it is no longer a game at all. We can not lose - therefore it is not a game.

If you are fine logging into a Social RP server to play pretend, then that is great. You found what you are looking for.

I'm just asking you to stop pretending you are playing a game, especially a game with any sort of challenge to it.

If you want to play a persistent world or if you want to play D&D then "lets up the difficulty"

Its best we all as a community come to a decision on exactly what that means.

Does it mean server wipe, lower exp gains, lower magic to plus 3, maybe 4, removing epic gear and inclusion of Permadeath?
Or simply
Remove Raise Dead scrolls, and give a stricter death penalties, especially to level 30s?

I think it would be cool if each time you die there is a percentage chance you earn a death token or death strike. And after so many death tokens/strikes you are perma dead. Maybe this only happens once you reach level 30. Maybe certain stats increase/decrease this percentage or number of strikes. Perhaps there are even ways to have death tokens/strikes removed.

We are smart people. I am sure there are all sorts of ways to make BGTSCC an actual RPG, again.

Do you propose these changes as a blanket change? Because you can't say "good on those enjoying their time in the server" yet at the same time propose something that would change their whole dynamic. I don't know why a lot of people think that upping the difficulty is a solution to power-creeping. I really don't. All it does is exacerbate it.

As for bringing BG closer to being an rpg, it is. Just not the type you perhaps prefer to see from the playerbase. How are you going to bring PnP dynamic into a game that utilizes mmo mob spawns? Roleplay XP, loot generator, pvp, etc...? Mechanically speaking the server works. If you want to add risk and challenge, add the venue for the systems you are proposing instead of a blanket change, because that will lead to yet another power-creep or worse, player migration. Is that what you want?

[JustAnotherGuy]

Permadeath can add an extra risk for the players who wish to use it, sure. There are two points I want to address, however.

The first is, the risk should already be the reward. Leveling on the server is tedious to some, but not all. It's an enjoyable experience for me, personally. (Not re-leveling after an RCR, I blast through that as fast as possible. But the initial growth of a toon should be part of their story.) I think that increasing the xp gains for MoD players above and beyond what the general populace gets would further isolate them from the rest of the populace.

Which brings me to my second point. Permadeath characters are absolutely not for the benefit of anyone else. They are for their own excitement, nearly in a vacuum. In order for a character's death to be meaningful to anyone else, it takes time and investment. There must be some connection. And with the amount of alts that people play here on the server, that connection is already rare. For Emmanuel, there are maybe 4-5 people whose deaths would affect him on a personal level so as to change his story in any meaningful way. And those connections happened after months, if not years, of interaction with those people.

Permadeath characters tend to be "flash in a pan" toons, which means that no connections can be fostered.

[DaloLorn]

I'd previously held my tongue at Tekill's posts, but... It's not Almarea's problem you won't police yourself.

My characters are very much mortal, and in the past year, two have very nearly been killed off for good. (A third got brutally murdered in an ambush, but her corpse was promptly ransomed back to her friends; she just left the Coast in tears.) The first was saved due to improper disposal, and has actually permanently killed more of the OP's characters than I thought was strictly necessary. The second and her friends only returned to life because of a combination of more dubious disposal and our realisation that their last scene in the Fugue - heart-wrenching though it was - was not canonically possible.

The danger on BG is what you make it. If you want to play a demigod, go right ahead. I'm sure Ilhara's daggers will find their mark eventually. (You know, because you play a Zau'afin! )

Others (like Almarea, Lambe, and Blame The Rogue) have more accurately addressed the notion of artificially creating difficulty in a server where the balance scheme is every imaginable kind of broken, so I won't rehash their arguments, except to point out that this sort of improvisation has been done several times throughout BG's history. It's a large chunk of why we're getting all these massive revamps now, to fix the mistakes made in the past. (... To be fair, some of those mistakes were inherited from BW/OEI, and we're pushing the limits of what can be done to fix those...)

[Steve]

C'mon everyone! Haven't you even been in a DM event? Where 15+ Level 30s run head long into the battle with Supreme Evil, only to either a) completely rofflestomp it; b) get their asses kicked HARD, then Raised, then eventually win against Supreme Evil?

Can I get a witness, please?

The very fact that once your toon reaches Level 30, there is no frickin' penalty to any and all behaviors—IC or OOC—does, as Tekill perfectly writes, makes this NOT a game, just a farce.

Farces are funny, as they are defined to be. Until it becomes a mockery.

[Lambe]

C'mon everyone! Haven't you even been in a DM event? Where 15+ Level 30s run head long into the battle with Supreme Evil, only to either a) completely rofflestomp it; b) get their asses kicked HARD, then Raised, then eventually win against Supreme Evil?

Can I get a witness, please?

The very fact that once your toon reaches Level 30, there is no frickin' penalty to any and all behaviors—IC or OOC—does, as Tekill perfectly writes, makes this NOT a game, just a farce.

Farces are funny, as they are defined to be. Until it becomes a mockery.

It is a game, with gamers finding ways to beat it at every turn. I think majority of the playerbase here understand that this IS a real-time crpg that feature a robust DM client. I personally am not pretending this to be as representative to a tabletop session every time I log in. But I can certainly put the effort in making it feel so. I don't understand the need to call for sweeping overhauls when the problem is isolated to perspective.

It's a persistent world, not a weekly scheduled tabeltop session. You want that pnp experience? Schedule one, you're certainly welcome to log in and do it in the persistent world.

[Steve]

It is a game, with gamers finding ways to beat it at every turn.

We can agree to disagree if a Game can actually be defined by only and everytime winning.

[DaloLorn]

Can we agree to have different experiences, then?

[Tekill]

It's not Almarea's problem you won't police yourself.

That is actually a good point. I could police myself by creating rules for myself to create some sort of element of challenge. Give myself a handicap of some sort may be the only option to make me feel less like an Immortal Demigod.

Maybe.
buuut...

I have not really explored this avenue but I don't like the idea of it. I have not put much thought into it, so I can not really say why I do not like it. I guess I just feel that the playing field should be the same for everyone- that we should all be playing with the same challenges- the same game, because that is more how the actual world of Forgotten Realms works. It does not seem realistic or legitimate to me otherwise. I'm still an immortal demigod like all the immortal demigods around me except I will delete my immortal demigod if my immortal demigod gets fuged 3 times or whatever.

You ever play games with little children where you act like you were beat up by them. You got me! Ack....you are too strong for me, I'm vanquished, Arrrrhhggg!
You pretend they got you and they get feel super tough.

In the end if feels like I am still just pretending to die in a world where the rest of the children get to pretend they are super tough. But maybe it is the only option for an adult playing a children's game?

I might give it a try.

[Almarea90]

@ Almarea90
You quote my entire post giving me the impression you are about to comment on the entire things as a whole. But then you take four words from it, and put them in quotation marks. Then you make the presumption that those four words only mean one of two things.
It's a perfect example of how many of us read and respond to opposing arguments on the internet. The difference being your example was very well written.

I apologise if my post came out as aggressive in any shape or form, as that was not my intention. The reason why I commented only those four words is because those were the only ones I assumed being related to the topic of this thread, which is the Mark of Death and I didn't want to go off topic. For clarity I should have probably quoted just that part.

Yes, my use of the four words: "lets up the difficulty" was misinterpreted and means much more than just two things.

If I can sum up my post in a couple words it is that, I can no longer ignore the power creep on this server as a player. We are all immortal Demigods while pretentiously pretending or play acting, to be mortal adventurers and I think that's silly.

This server is neither PnP nor is it a Persistent World, because it is no longer a game at all. We can not lose - therefore it is not a game.

If you are fine logging into a Social RP server to play pretend, then that is great. You found what you are looking for.

I'm just asking you to stop pretending you are playing a game, especially a game with any sort of challenge to it.

If you want to play a persistent world or if you want to play D&D then "lets up the difficulty"

Its best we all as a community come to a decision on exactly what that means.

Does it mean server wipe, lower exp gains, lower magic to plus 3, maybe 4, removing epic gear and inclusion of Permadeath?
Or simply
Remove Raise Dead scrolls, and give a stricter death penalties, especially to level 30s?

I think it would be cool if each time you die there is a percentage chance you earn a death token or death strike. And after so many death tokens/strikes you are perma dead. Maybe this only happens once you reach level 30. Maybe certain stats increase/decrease this percentage or number of strikes. Perhaps there are even ways to have death tokens/strikes removed.

We are smart people. I am sure there are all sorts of ways to make BGTSCC an actual RPG, again.

Thank you for clarifying this point.
I wouldn't be opposed to lower magic, lower exp gains, removal of Raise Dead Scrolls and more death penalties. I wouldn't even be opposed to other things like lowering the level cap or making resurrection more expensive.

I disagree however with upping the difficulty through Permadeath, especially if this can happen through very randomic events (group of mobs spawning at the wrong time, lag spikes, mobs tuned for powerbuilds, etc).

To address the point made by Steve, "losing" doesn't necessarily have to equal "permadeath". If I have to be completely honest, a permadeath imho is not a very efficient RP tool. If the character permadies, it's deleted and there cannot be development from that defeat. It is certainly true that this will affect the story of those close to them, but here I agree in full with JAG. If people can randomly permadie while grinding, chances are that said character will be dead long before leaving an impression on the world and other characters (considering how things work on the server). As JAG said, a flash in a pan.

[DaloLorn]

Ultimately, unless the staff decide to very actively police player activities (or institute draconian mechanics not consistent with what I know of the setting, like force-enabling the Mark of Death on all characters), mortality and vulnerability are decidedly cultural things, and need to be addressed by cultural shifts.

Even on Ravenloft, which is by all accounts a much harsher server (in every way I can think of, IC or OOC), it's plausible to play in such a way that death ends up being a revolving-door experience. Granted, it's a bit harder to execute on Ravenloft, since:

• Their equivalent of Myrkul can claim multiple levels' worth of XP in higher levels.
• PvP deaths are treated the same as PvE deaths. (Mercifully, though, they have a ghost system, and there is partial support for carrying/raising the corpses of offline characters, so you don't have to be stuck twiddling your thumbs in the Near-Ethereal the whole time you're dead.)
• You need to pay 100gp/level (or an equivalent value in diamonds if you're casting the spell yourself, or use a rare-ish and pricey consumable) to cast Raise Dead on someone.
• If you die the wrong way (or if a player deliberately damages your corpse), the raising cost goes up to 500gp/level, and if there's a consumable to cast Resurrection, I've never seen it.

[Tekill]

This is a fun debate, so far. I am enjoying myself...maybe too much.
It's hard to emote your overall feelings when debating on line.
But I sense no aggression from anyone so far. Although I am not really pulling any punches here, so if I am coming across as a troll, then let me know and I will dial it back.

I personally like the idea of there being a small chance of Permadeath existing.
But, seated at a round table negotiating the future difficulty of this server, I would be willing to remove Permadeath from the deal if it means we can proceed with making the server more challenging in other ways.

I think Ravenloft has the right idea. That ancient crusty old server has the highest population out of them all -including both BGTSCC servers combined.

1) I do think we level way too fast.
2) power creep on magic items is getting a bit out of whack, but I do not think it is too crazy yet.
3) If we die in game - and are raised we should not be like "ow that hurt- okay lets go kill more stuff!"
We should be down for the count until reset, or at least heavily penalized until reset.
4) Delete all Raise dead scrolls - and increase the cost to raise the dead.
5) 100% SERVER WIPE! -Just kidding now I am being a troll for sure.
AND B) There are lots of other ideas - why am I the only one trying to think of stuff?!