Suggestion: Bear Warrior PrC improvements

[Steve]

Hey steve, ... As of now, you can create a powerful character with the base class ( barbarian especially as you pointed out ) then add the 10lvls of bear warrior for extra fluff and abilities. Make it a 20lvl Prc...

Dammit M3nt, you're absolutely right! Hit the nail on the head; tail on the donkey; bullseye.

I want, I am considering the Bear Warrior PrC as a defining, nay overriding, aspect of the build/character/idea. I want it to be a Bear Warrior more than a Barbarian, but...it simply isn't, because yes, as you rightly point out, it is a 10 lvl investment, not 20, not 30.

If Bear Warrior is just fluff for a Barbarian, or, another way of saying it is that Barbarian characters needed options, then yeah, Bear Warrior does not interest me as much any more. Not just because of the RP of it, but because taking 10 lvls of Bear Warrior just simply weakens what I consider a "real" Barbarian to be, in mechanical terms. Yes, I want a more powerful Bear Warrior, not a weakened Barbarian.

But as you astutely point out, that is what Bear Warrior PrC is, at the moment. And likely, it won't ever change.

[Hullack]

Ditch the prc and add another option to barbarian at level one when you select rage:

Standard Rage
Whirlwind Frenzy
BEAR!

[whatsittoya]

Hey steve, ... As of now, you can create a powerful character with the base class ( barbarian especially as you pointed out ) then add the 10lvls of bear warrior for extra fluff and abilities. Make it a 20lvl Prc...

Dammit M3nt, you're absolutely right! Hit the nail on the head; tail on the donkey; bullseye.

I want, I am considering the Bear Warrior PrC as a defining, nay overriding, aspect of the build/character/idea. I want it to be a Bear Warrior more than a Barbarian, but...it simply isn't, because yes, as you rightly point out, it is a 10 lvl investment, not 20, not 30.

If Bear Warrior is just fluff for a Barbarian, or, another way of saying it is that Barbarian characters needed options, then yeah, Bear Warrior does not interest me as much any more. Not just because of the RP of it, but because taking 10 lvls of Bear Warrior just simply weakens what I consider a "real" Barbarian to be, in mechanical terms. Yes, I want a more powerful Bear Warrior, not a weakened Barbarian.

But as you astutely point out, that is what Bear Warrior PrC is, at the moment. And likely, it won't ever change.

PrCs often define the build identity of a character. It's not the class that has the most levels, it's the class that has the greatest impact on a character's theme. A fighter weapon master isn't a fighter, they're a weapon master.

If barbarian is too strong, that's a separate issue from bear warrior being lackluster.

Nerf barbarian, buff bear warrior.

[Steve]

Hidden: show

I know there have been plenty of Bear Warrior "upgrade NEEDED" threads in the past. I'll refrain from linking them here, though I'm going to add to the pile!

Anyway...there are a few issues and some possible improvements I'll address. Here is the DnD Tools Bear Warrior page for reference.

Issues:
1. Bear Warrior bear form doesn't seem to benefit from Combat Expertise (as seen in JEGs).
2. When selecting the Feat 'Bear Form', which initializes Rage, there is a double cooldown applied: 18s on the Bear Form, and 3 minutes (!!!) on the Rage ability. What this translates to is that if you 'Return to Original Form' before the 3 minute Rage cooldown ends, you cannot use Bear Form again until the cooldown is up!!! That just simply isn't right/good/fair/appropriate/(insert better word here). And although the Bear Form has a "you are tired after..." penalty for 5 rounds after Raging in Bear Form ends...there is something not entirely right here with the mechanics. It should be that if you have X Rages, that the player can use them in succession. And with that 5 rounds of "tired" perhaps as the "cooldown" between uses. Not 3 minutes!
3. The Bear Form GUI that contains Knockdown/Charge/Roar is using the old Knockdown icon and...the Knockdown doesn't work. If you target a mob, then click it, you get nothing. It's probably referencing a dead script.
4. The Roar ability has about a 3 second delay when you click on it. Shouldn't it be immediate?

Improvements:
1. Change the current +8/+10/+12 STR increase to the PnP stats of +8/+16/+20 STR. Considering Item Enhancement Bonuses do not transfer, a Bear Warrior Bear cannot make use of Buffs in the Abilities department.
2. For Dire Bear form (level 10 BW), grant the feat Alertness.
3. For Brown Bear and Dire Bear forms, grant Improved Grapple feat (to match the Improved Grab feat from PnP; also since Knockdown is a now free feat)
4. In form, grant Dash feat (since a bear has a 40ft. movement)

Discuss!! And thanks for considering.

Been playing my Bear Warrior again, and as before, I wanted to suggest some improvements for lasting, enjoyable game play (edited from my first ask on post #1):

Improvements:
1. Change the current +8/+10/+12 STR increase to the PnP stats of +8/+16/+20 STR. Considering Item Enhancement Bonuses do not transfer, a Bear Warrior Bear cannot make use of Buffs in the Abilities department.
2. Have Barbarian and Bear Warrior levels combine/stack for determining number of Rages per day (example: a Barbarian 10 / Bear Warrior 10 would have 6/day Rages, where as currently said build would only have 3/day from the 10 Barb levels).
3. In form, grant Dash feat (since a bear has a 40ft. movement).

Thank you for considering!

[Ewe]

Hey Steve, if you want to play an animal with scent and 40ft movement speed (long gait), then you should just get it over with and roll a Gray Orc!

Anyways, I don't know how Bear Warrior is implemented, if it's not a true polymorph then we cannot change your stats beyond the 12 cap as previously mentioned.

If it's true polymorph than your character's race and stats change to that of the new creature's blueprint.

[Steve]

Hey Steve, if you want to play an animal with scent and 40ft movement speed (long gait), then you should just get it over with and roll a Gray Orc!

I can’t argue against this logic!!

Anyways, I don't know how Bear Warrior is implemented, if it's not a true polymorph then we cannot change your stats beyond the 12 cap as previously mentioned.

If it's true polymorph than your character's race and stats change to that of the new creature's blueprint.

Dammit, I forgot about that cap. So…if it’s not true polymorph, is that also why Enhancements cannot be applied? What about then a consideration to make a Polymorph effect? Actually, probably more sensible to be a Wildshape.

Anyway, maybe some hope on the Rage /day increase??? Thanks Dae.

[DaloLorn]

IIRC it's a true(ish) polymorph, in that it uses EffectPolymorph normally, but then hacks the new form's statblock up to pretend it was changing your base ability scores. (There's a SetAbilityScore function, IIRC, which changes the creature's base ability score... but when that creature is polymorphed, the changes apply to the morphed form and do not persist to the creature's natural shape.)

Incidentally, this is the only reason I find it at all believable that you could (without plugins) make it give more than +12 STR.

[Steve]

IIRC it's a true(ish) polymorph, in that it uses EffectPolymorph normally, but then hacks the new form's statblock up to pretend it was changing your base ability scores. (There's a SetAbilityScore function, IIRC, which changes the creature's base ability score... but when that creature is polymorphed, the changes apply to the morphed form and do not persist to the creature's natural shape.)

Incidentally, this is the only reason I find it at all believable that you could (without plugins) make it give more than +12 STR.

If you are correct in your hunch Dalo, that does mean Bear forms can have their + STR values increased by simply changing numbers in the code!?

[Ewe]

Due to potential exploits I would not recommend altering the character's base/raw stats for the purpose of a temporary buff. Base stats are used for feat selection, among other things. If it were a permanent change, like Dragon Disciple, then sure.

[DaloLorn]

IIRC it's a true(ish) polymorph, in that it uses EffectPolymorph normally, but then hacks the new form's statblock up to pretend it was changing your base ability scores. (There's a SetAbilityScore function, IIRC, which changes the creature's base ability score... but when that creature is polymorphed, the changes apply to the morphed form and do not persist to the creature's natural shape.)

Incidentally, this is the only reason I find it at all believable that you could (without plugins) make it give more than +12 STR.

If you are correct in your hunch Dalo, that does mean Bear forms can have their + STR values increased by simply changing numbers in the code!?

Yes, it'd be a trivial number swap as far as the tech side is concerned. Assuming I don't brick my PC trying to "upgrade" to this gods-forsaken mockery of Windows, I should be able to verify my memory shortly.

EDIT: Went and checked it early. My findings are... much less straightforward than I remember.

So, I am correct insofar as the polymorphed creature gets its physical ability scores overwritten with SetBaseAbilityScore. However, this is done to reset their ability scores to their pre-morph state only: The Bear Warrior buffs are delivered using a more conventional EffectAbilityIncrease, and are thus subject to the +12 cap.

This calls into question my earlier theory that the effects of SetBaseAbilityScore aren't persisted to the natural shape. It might still be true, and there's even a few things that hint at it being the case! But it might not. Further testing is required, and either way, you'd have to talk a dev into refactoring the STR buff to use SetBaseAbilityScore.

[Ewe]

EffectPolymorph does a whole slew of things in the engine to protect those raw stats from being saved to your actual character to prevent many exploits. I would never recommend altering base stats for a temporary buff on the main character object.

[zhazz]

Rather than modify the ability scores, why not just add relevant bonuses to other stats match the desired outcome that would otherwise be achieved via ability scores?

[Steve]

Am I reading these responses to effectively mean the Bear Warrior transformation to Bear Form is unnecessarily complicated? Do I need to go ask Luna why?!?!

Seems that it would have been better—though maybe Luna didn't know how—to have made Bear form more like a Shifter form was scripted. Or, as the Solar Channeler Channel Solar form. Damn, where is the AI copy/paste worker to just magically make this happen?!?!

Damn. Okay, this maybe then is something for future changes, if warranted.

So maybe then forgo the idea of higher stats on the Bear, but can then Enchantments be applied? Like Bull's, Cat's, Bear's, etc? Because it is possible with Channel Solar, and I wonder why Bear Form was "locked out" from this option?

BEAR ROAR!

[DaloLorn]

Am I reading these responses to effectively mean the Bear Warrior transformation to Bear Form is unnecessarily complicated? Do I need to go ask Luna why?!?!

Hardly any of this complication is unnecessary, for the effect it achieves. EffectPolymorph is used to turn you into a bear, and SetBaseAbilityScore is used to retain your natural shape's physical ability scores (otherwise EffectPolymorph would have set them to a fixed value baked into the polymorph 2DA). The only (potentially) unnecessary part of the system is where it delivers the STR buff as a separate effect.

EDIT: However, now that you mention it: Shifter shapes, and one or two other special polymorphs throughout the server, do use SetBaseAbilityScore in the exact fashion you're requesting for Bear Warrior, with no ill effects. Precautions need to be taken, obviously, to ensure the function is only called if you're polymorphed... but it does seem safe.

[Steve]

EDIT: However, now that you mention it: Shifter shapes, and one or two other special polymorphs throughout the server, do use SetBaseAbilityScore in the exact fashion you're requesting for Bear Warrior, with no ill effects. Precautions need to be taken, obviously, to ensure the function is only called if you're polymorphed... but it does seem safe.

Also, Vermin Shape (Cavestalker).



Is this similar or different to how Bear Form is coded? Because Vermin Shape from Cavestalker isn't a Wild Shape per se, but can receive Enchantments like Bull's, Cat's, etc.