Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

How many castings of 50-60 DC spells is a PC going to have per rest?

Steve wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:02 am How many castings of 50-60 DC spells is a PC going to have per rest?

Sufficient to complete the goal else a strong reconsideration of the means of which the character is played is suggested.

Steve wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:02 am How many castings of 50-60 DC spells is a PC going to have per rest?

Quite a few (the caster stats required to manage it are going to result in a lot of extra spell slots), though possibly still not enough in the current PvE meta.

Steve wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:02 am How many castings of 50-60 DC spells is a PC going to have per rest?

Enough for a full dungeon, and since rest timers are so short on BG, that's all you need. If you need more, then all you do is gather up more enemies at once before actually casting.

And that's before we get into bosses, of which several can be vulnerable to DC spells (and the ones who aren't, were changed to be immune to counter said DC casters. High saves on BG can ultimately be blamed on people rolling DC builds and devs taking steps to address it, making the experience worse for everyone else).

Not to mention, DC builds are the premier mage tactic for PvP, which is often a significant factor in those rolling evil-aligned mages, who most fit Shadow Adept.

No one can actually give a numerical answer? 6? 7 if you min/max like hell?

But…it appears the real problem isn’t high DC mages, but the Content and how it was designed, plus, tactics employed by players. Or, maybe it is all of the above?? If THAT is true, than one single PrC Feat requirement won’t fix much.

PvP related issues is still something. But we all know that PvP on BGTSCC is garbage. It leads to sooooo many issues, I’d rather see it gone.

If Shadow Adept is the best PrC for DCs, then nerf it! At least, make it so that one can’t have SA with either AM or RW or BM.

Steve wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:27 am No one can actually give a numerical answer? 6? 7 if you min/max like hell?

I can't, because I don't play them, because it requires hyper specialization and very specific builds which is anti-RP for me.

I know AoS did play a shadow adept main for a long time, so if anyone knows the numbers it's him.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:39 am

Steve wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:27 am No one can actually give a numerical answer? 6? 7 if you min/max like hell?

I can't, because I don't play them, because it requires hyper specialization and very specific builds which is anti-RP for me.

I know AoS did play a shadow adept main for a long time, so if anyone knows the numbers it's him.

I mean, if you can hit 60 on a level 9 spell, you're hitting 51 on a level 1 spell. In that context, the answer is probably somewhere around... 50? More? It's been ages since I counted Vilmar's spell slots. (A sorcerer would definitely get more than 50, though.)

Even if you're only hitting 50 on level 9, DC 41 is nothing to scoff at. (And given that save-or-dies don't come into play until level 4, IIRC, it's actually going to be DC 44+.)

Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:39 am
…, because it requires hyper specialization and very specific builds which is anti-RP for me.

I feel the same way!

But it also should be that if a player wants a one-shot-nuclear-option Character to RP, that should be supported…right?

Or maybe that is exactly what has created the problem?!?

Steve wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:54 am

Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:39 am
…, because it requires hyper specialization and very specific builds which is anti-RP for me.

I feel the same way!

But it also should be that if a player wants a one-shot-nuclear-option Character to RP, that should be supported…right?

Or maybe that is exactly what has created the problem?!?

Same me, for neutral or good mage, there isnt any option for good DC, no Shadow Adept, no Blood mage, no Red wizards. So options, are non.

And taking this classes to get PB and they rp as neutral or good its.. well better not comment for this pratcies if they are. :X

Other thing, sure.. base DC incerace can maxed PB with "evil" classes, but if we also can put a Cap, maxium DC (lets say to 50) this will remove PB, still give option to have good DC, and decend DC for builds without this classes.

Aspect of Sorrow wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:38 pm

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I'm inclined to disagree on the DC commentary, and this wasn't a difficult to reach plateau whilst serving utility (skills) as the primary focus; you can gain 6 more DC with an optimized build for it. Paired with ~90 spell slots and meta shuffle this trivialized nearly all PvE content. A feat in replacement is more than acceptable, I'd argue even two might be needed for the kind of output you can achieve even on a PvE event level, such as one background requirement. The feats it offers is synergetic in a multitude of ways beyond an engine of free movement, but more importantly the RP made available through the skills it offers the player that with certain adjustments and backgrounds also holds new PvE/PvP benefit. There's a lot that the class offers that seems to be slept on based on what's read here.

if being a Shadow Adept, in principle of RP, could be demonstrated to be powerful—as in, give me an example where a Shadow Adept did something EPIC to influence the Sand Box

Triel, Anthem, the past two years all comes immediately to mind where publicly known SA activity has been heavy influencers. Sharrans were instrumental in the Devil War.

Original Unedits.

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Since the new leadership now has the aim of bridging the gap between PnP and the BG module, which is, generally speaking, a good aim, I suggest removing the requirement of the feat true believer from the Shadow Adept PrC. Not only is it not true to PnP lore, but it is also arguably too heavy a cost to pay for class abilities which are nice and flavourful but not powerful at all. Plus, the class already comes with its own penalties in the form of nerfed non-shadow weave spells.

Steve wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:08 pm Shadow Adept was powerful when it was Application Only. For Role-play purposes.

Cosmic is right: DC builds are powerful, but incredibly limited, to like...2-3 blast, then they are subject to a Rest Timer. Which means—in the meta of building and how Players interact with this Server—is crap.

That said: if being a Shadow Adept, in principle of RP, could be demonstrated to be powerful—as in, give me an example where a Shadow Adept did something EPIC to influence the Sand Box—then it's pretty easy to drop the idea of "balancing of mechanics."

I think requiring Shadow Weave Magic feat is a great solution. The only issue is that you can be a Shadow Adept Cleric, and thus the -2 WIS is a very heavy penalty.

What forbidden, eldritch knowledge are you using to push these kinds of DCs ?
Also, isn't maxing INT exactly how you optimize for maximum skill mileage ? Y'know, the exact same way one conventionally also raises their DC ?

Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:12 am

Steve wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:02 am How many castings of 50-60 DC spells is a PC going to have per rest?

Enough for a full dungeon, and since rest timers are so short on BG, that's all you need. If you need more, then all you do is gather up more enemies at once before actually casting.

And that's before we get into bosses, of which several can be vulnerable to DC spells (and the ones who aren't, were changed to be immune to counter said DC casters. High saves on BG can ultimately be blamed on people rolling DC builds and devs taking steps to address it, making the experience worse for everyone else).

Not to mention, DC builds are the premier mage tactic for PvP, which is often a significant factor in those rolling evil-aligned mages, who most fit Shadow Adept.

I didn't make this post with PvP in mind, as this is a roleplaying server and not an action pvp one, but, with regards to pvp, DC-based spells are definitely not the premier mage tactic in a world of inflated PC saves reaching even higher than NPC ones.

Yeah, my first go-to in PvP is Quickened Starbolts/Orbs of Force, unless I know I can get away with landing a more potent spell without worrying about immunities or SR. Mages crumble like tinfoil with their limited HP, and most other targets (except archers) can't close to combat distance before I've unloaded half a dozen spell slots of long-range magical damage into their faces. (Granted, this is greatly assisted by the fact that Ilhara gets to boost her damage with Arcane Throw.) If I'm playing a warlock, my first instinct is instead to go with some variety of Eldritch Blast or use Tenacious Plague... and on my divine casters, the only reason I'd cast anything other than Swing Mace/Moonblade/Staff/Claw is out of desperation, against an opponent I can't defeat conventionally. (Nelee actually managed to make it work once or twice against Alkesta before Nastya got banned, but she never managed to actually win, just delay her inevitable defeat by a few rounds.)

The equation changes somewhat if I know for a fact that the enemy doesn't have wards against [insert the character's favored save-or-die/suck spell(s)], but even then, the default assumption is that everyone who is not myself is functionally immune to DC spells across all three save types. I often build and equip my characters differently, with the net result that most of my active roster has single-digit or low-teen values on at least one saving throw even in epic levels, but this is often not the case with the characters I interact with.

AsuraKing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:49 pm

Hullack wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:31 pm I thought Shar wanted people to use the shadow weave as a means of gaining power/subverting Mystra. Cursing them seems like a weird way to do that, but is pretty on-brand.

What about aligned deities? Vhaeraun or Mask for instance?

Quite the opposite, it's considered a great secret of hers and Sharran faithful actively hunt down and murder anyone that uses it without worshiping her, it's like the single greatest offense to her faith. The only exception being Vhaerunites who she lets use it.

cosmic ray wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:10 am I didn't make this post with PvP in mind, as this is a roleplaying server and not an action pvp one, but, with regards to pvp, DC-based spells are definitely not the premier mage tactic in a world of inflated PC saves reaching even higher than NPC ones.

PvP is very circumstantial but the meta for spellcasting PvP is currently strong in favor of disabler hips-sorcerer (meta bigsby) openers as #1.
#2 is DC but reserved for very few and specific builds to accomplish it, and because of that most have moved into the RTA sphere instead.

If you aim to include RTA and DC into an SA build for PvP you'll be satisfied with the output of neither.

For PvE the meta effectiveness is
1) Controller - Hands down the most effective, and the SA's wheelhouse in combat and RP. Recent patches have only made this even stronger.
2) AoE cloud multiround or AoE Save-or-die DC (The latter is what I used predominantly in soloing loot runs, functional in Graypeaks too)
3) Summoner (Really strong in the mid levels, tapers off in the 27-30 space)
4) Gish - Wild magic has made this option worse.

By the way, Aspect of Sorrow, would you mind provinding proof that shadow adepts, especially mages, can reach DC 50 without optimisation and 56 with optimisation?

I can account for roughly 48 fully min-maxed.