Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:35 pm

JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:29 pm Of the traveling spells, teleport is supposed to be one of the safest (with plant walk being the most safe). Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk are supposed to be life threatening with each use. Mirror Walk has a clone of you trying to hunt you down, killing you, and taking your place on the material. Shadow walk is not even a teleport. It uses no teleport magics. It's walking the line between the material and the shadow plane, where you can move much faster (kind of like using the nether in minecraft to fast travel). It's supposed to be very dangerous, and easy to get lost.

These two spells in question are supposed to be far inferior to teleport. Teleport should be a nearly sure thing as long as the caster is sure of the destination, while mirror walk and shadow walk are risking your life every time you use them.

Everyone knows all that. But the thing is, Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk are both higher level spells than teleport! How does it make sense to have crappier versions at higher levels?

I guess they are more involved lore-wise. Teleport cannot be used for interplanar travel, while mirror walk and shadow walk let you travel between planes. So in a sense they are all quite different spells, even though their mechanical implementation is similar. Maybe with DM present, mirror and shadow walk could be used to actually visit the mirror or shadow planes in some cases?

edit: aand seems I'm just repeating what the poster above me said

I honestly don't care what the spells are supposed to do in PnP. It always mystifies me when people treat PnP as though it were the holiest of holy unchangeable law. First of all, this environment is nothing at all like PnP. You won't have a dm and even if you do that dm is not going to be able to instantly create a whole shadow realm or mirror realm on the fly and make it CR appropriate by storytelling. Second of all, one of the rules IN PnP explicitly states that all rules are changeable/discardable.

5th Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 4 wrote: As a referee, the DM interprets the rules, decides when to abide by them, and when to change them.

How about going with what makes sense for this environment instead of blind adherence to rules set down for a different environment? How about shadow walk and mirror walk are either in some way inferior to teleport and lower level (like lvl 4), or, if they're higher level, they should be superior?

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:37 pm I honestly don't care what the spells are supposed to do in PnP. It always mystifies me when people treat PnP as though it were the holiest of holy unchangeable law. First of all, this environment is nothing at all like PnP. You won't have a dm and even if you do that dm is not going to be able to instantly create a whole shadow realm or mirror realm on the fly and make it CR appropriate by storytelling. Second of all, one of the rules IN PnP explicitly states that all rules are changeable/discardable.

5th Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 4 wrote: As a referee, the DM interprets the rules, decides when to abide by them, and when to change them.

How about going with what makes sense for this environment instead of blind adherence to rules set down for a different environment? How about shadow walk and mirror walk are either in some way inferior to teleport and lower level (like lvl 4), or, if they're higher level, they should be superior?

To me, this is what makes sense in this setting. They are both harder to cast, and easier to mess up. They are, and should be, worse and more expensive versions of teleportation in our setting. It is an example of wizards (or other casters) overusing powerful magics to attempt to do something that a much easier and more reliable spell can do. The first option should be teleportation, and the others should only be seen as backups in emergency situations.

Looking at it completely without the lense of PnP, it still makes sense to be the way it is. If you want to go from point A to point B, you teleport. If that's not an option, then you do what you have to do. Invoke more much more powerful magics that are even less reliable, and more dangerous. Think of it like me wanting to get up from my desk and getting a drink. My mode of transportation will likely be shoes. I wouldn't hop in my car to drive to my kitchen. But that's precisely what shadow/mirror walk are when they are used to simply teleport on our plane. They are meant for much more powerful movements, but are used to only go from one spot to another on the same plane.

Mechanically, there's no question that these spells don't make sense. The question is, what can reasonably be done to change that?

Which is harder, walking to your kitchen via the hallway or instantly appearing there?

First, if we acknowledge that interplanar travel is even possible for player characters, then we would have to allow characters with inter-planar back-stories, which the dm team has explicitly disallowed. I know, because I had to retcon a char I had originally intended to be from Sigil. So to heck with what PnP says the spells do, they cannot do it here.

Second, going to another place via a connecting realm should be easier than instantly appearing someplace else, just like going down the hall is easier than appearing in the kitchen. If you want to stick with the spell descriptions as-is, that's NOT full interplanar travel. You walk the boundary between this plane and the shadow or mirror realms, not fully in them. So even then this should be a lower level spell than teleport. However, while I would be in favour of shadow/mirror walk involve traversing an actual area, making it CR appropriate wouldn't be possible if you have a lvl 9 cleric using the spell at the same time as a lvl 30 mage. That's the trouble with mmorpg.

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:49 pm Mechanically, there's no question that these spells don't make sense. The question is, what can reasonably be done to change that?

My suggestion: Make them less useful than teleport in one of two ways, detailed below, and make them lower level than teleport.

Both spells become level 4 and are nerfed either....


Nerf 1: Circumstance requirements:

Me wrote: Shadow Walk:
Make Shadow Walk ONLY function if the caster is standing in an area of shadow, or outdoors at night, or indoors/underground, ie, away from natural light.

Mirror Walk:
The caster must be standing near a reflective surface such as a placeable mirror or a body of water to teleport a party. If a peaceable mirror is used, casting the spell has a 50/50 chance of either destroying the mirror or returning it to the casters inventory. Caster may teleport just themselves if they have a hand mirror inventory item on their person, doing so has 50/50 chance of destroying the mirror in their inventory.

OR

Nerf 2: Realm traverse:
The caster and party is transported to a realm populated with creatures CR appropriate to a party of 4 of the lowest level able to cast the spell. At a random location in this realm (set once per reset) is a portal that will take the party to any location that the person clicking it has a rune for. What this area is like depends on which spell. Shadow Walk: Large area. Visibility is at lowest possible range, light spells do not work, darkvision, etc, of little help. Very little placeables, it's just big and dark and you don't know what part of the map the portal is in. Map doesn't work (like minotaur dungeon only you can barely see). Enemies: Shadows (duh). Mirror walk: Medium area, a maze of mirrors, enemies: glass golems, will-o-wisps.


Or both

There's a stark difference between inheritance of extraplanar elements into your character and the purpose of the spells in question which are 99% of the time transient purposed as the predominant feature isn't the original intent. The DMs support moving through the planes, the module as well, but they are enforced under limits whose guidance are set in code and in the DM event, not a backstory that doesn't fit thematically. It is more effort to perform a planeswalking act than it is to relocate from one spot to another on the same, hence their higher circle presence.

So far the focus of the two spells in this thread is about the convenience of teleportation than it is about the in character aspects of the spell in a diluting way.

Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk aren't dangerous, they just fail a lot and do some damage. I don't know how to make them better, I just hoped to discuss how Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk are simply inferior to Teleport (don't get me started on druidic ports, they're the best!) and therefore should be revamped into something worthwhile using on its own merit.

Louvaine wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:39 pm Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk aren't dangerous, they just fail a lot and do some damage. I don't know how to make them better, I just hoped to discuss how Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk are simply inferior to Teleport (don't get me started on druidic ports, they're the best!) and therefore should be revamped into something worthwhile using on its own merit.

Agree! I really don't care at all about all these arguments "they go outside this reality so they should be harder, but also they suck". If they're harder, they shouldn't suck. Ya know why? For the same reason that Rube Goldberg machines aren't really hot market items here in the real world. A spell has to be researched and created, so no wizard would have ever researched and created a sucky spell that does the same as a lower lvl one, only not as well.

A high lvl spell that has the same net outcome as a lower lvl spell only with more difficulty and risk is as likely to have been created and propagated as an electric toothbrush that requires uranium for its on-board power plant. People rarely make things that suck more than already existing things, at least not on purpose, and when they do they don't catch on. Spells are made things.

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:59 pm Which is harder, walking to your kitchen via the hallway or instantly appearing there?

To use the analogy, it would be easier to instantly appear there, than to appear in another plane (or between planes) and walk for a bit, and then shift again back into this plane.

First, if we acknowledge that interplanar travel is even possible for player characters, then we would have to allow characters with inter-planar back-stories, which the dm team has explicitly disallowed. I know, because I had to retcon a char I had originally intended to be from Sigil. So to heck with what PnP says the spells do, they cannot do it here.

I believe AoS addressed this well, so I won't belabor it.

Second, going to another place via a connecting realm should be easier than instantly appearing someplace else, just like going down the hall is easier than appearing in the kitchen. If you want to stick with the spell descriptions as-is, that's NOT full interplanar travel. You walk the boundary between this plane and the shadow or mirror realms, not fully in them. So even then this should be a lower level spell than teleport. However, while I would be in favour of shadow/mirror walk involve traversing an actual area, making it CR appropriate wouldn't be possible if you have a lvl 9 cleric using the spell at the same time as a lvl 30 mage. That's the trouble with mmorpg.

Thing is, you are saying, "It should be easier to instantly appear in another world (or between them), walk, and then instantly appear back in our world than it should be to instantly appear somewhere else in our world."

When you cast these spells, you are planar traveling. It's well known that this is much harder than teleporting within a plane. By lore, within our setting, this is what you are doing. As AoS said, a spell is much different than an interplanar backstory. Our toons can go to the shadow realm on the regular (though, not without difficulty) without even having DM support. Just have to make your way through the puzzles of Ulcasters and reach the library. So planar travel is a thing on this server.

So yes, teleporting within a plane should be a lower level spell than shifting planes. And those two spells in particular are dangerous. If you want to forget PnP, then sure. In our world and in our setting it is known that they are dangerous. It is known that they are inferior to teleportation. And that is the way it should be. They are dangerous, and harder to cast. They shouldn't be a convenient alternative. They are a last resort.

To be honest, I don't care that it's difficult. Let it be even more difficult. I pass the DC most of the time regardless, even for UD-Surface travel. What does bother me is the chance to fail even after passing the check.

Louvaine wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:38 pm To be honest, I don't care that it's difficult. Let it be even more difficult. I pass the DC most of the time regardless, even for UD-Surface travel. What does bother me is the chance to fail even after passing the check.

... That is actually one of the ways they could justify damaging you at a higher spell level. Removing the ability to autofail on nat 1s, making it a cheaper but more painful Greater Teleport (minus the d4 boost to your teleport check).

Another option might be to reduce the cost of casting the spell, so that it's basically an evolution in the opposite direction from Greater Teleport - greater risk (insofar as you're going to need a good bit of HP to guarantee your survival), but lower cost.

When you use mirror walk in game you get a message in your combat log that tells you what you've seen and done while in the other plane. It isn't always extremely dangerous as you sometimes have an uneventful trip, but it can be very dangerous. The one time I went I didn't understand how it all worked and we ended up retconning it, but I was later told by the person who mirror walked me that we had seen and fought large beasts of some sort along the way.

That's cool to role-play, but really you just get a message about the lore of the spell and end up staying in place most of the time.

I don't mind the lore of the spells, that's cool. Nothing comes of it, but it's cool. What I do mind is that the spell is an inferior Teleport that feels icky to use, yet offers no reward for using it. In fact, it punishes the user by being of higher spell slot, failing often, dealing damage and outing the caster as dodgy, in some cases.

Louvaine wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:37 pm That's cool to role-play, but really you just get a message about the lore of the spell and end up staying in place most of the time.

I don't mind the lore of the spells, that's cool. Nothing comes of it, but it's cool. What I do mind is that the spell is an inferior Teleport that feels icky to use, yet offers no reward for using it. In fact, it punishes the user by being of higher spell slot, failing often, dealing damage and outing the caster as dodgy, in some cases.

This.

If it's more dangerous or a higher level spell, there should be some advantage to using it. These are both more dangerous and higher level with no advantage at all.

So fine. Keep the lore and keep the spell levels as they are if you want, but if they caster and everyone who ported with them had battles and adventures in the mirror or shadow realm, shouldn't they get xp and find some small amount of treasure?

"" Server Message: You were attacked in the [mirror/shadow] realm by a [shadow/mirror image]! You gain [amount of xp appropriate to the amount of damage taken] and find [amount of gold appropriate to the amount of damage taken] gold. ""