Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Current epic shop placement is dumb, but not anywhere as bad as when it was in Avernus and people kept boasting by the campfire that they had been to Hell and back ten times in the same month.

The best place to have these things would indeed be Sshamath, as the Underdark is full of powerful magic items created by drow, duergar etc, but certain players would never allow staff to correct this purely for OOC reasons. Instead, Sshamath has inferior epic stock available, but street vendors next to fish stalls in BG city and hick-town villagers in Greenest have god-like items.

Secondary placement of some epic items should be Elven and Dwarven towns on the surface, and Darkhold, but in lower amounts than Sshamath.

Of course, trade RP opportunities should be opened.

cosmic ray wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:59 pm Current epic shop placement is dumb, but not anywhere as bad as when it was in Avernus and people kept boasting by the campfire that they had been to Hell and back ten times in the same month.

I think this sums it up right here. Your contention is that Sshmath should have the shops. . . but then we'd just get people bragging about going to Sshmath over and over, when it's supposed to be a harrowing journey for those topside.

Avernus or not, I believe the epic shops should at least be re-located to better places where it isn't superweird.

I imagine a Large city like Baldurs gate to have like +1 or +2 items commercially available not powerful artifacts such as the epic items really are.

What would be cool to me is if an epic shop was instead located to, lets say the estate of an old retired adventurer or something like that, At least it would make some sense instead of having Jafar from aladdin sell epic items openly in the town square.

Adventurers of the caliber to wield epic items is quite a small number of people canonically for what I know, thus it feels like it would make more sense to have the epic shops out of sight from normal citizens in the very least.

The shops were moved where they were after a magnitude of player complaints about where they were previously.

While I agree with most of the points made in this thread on a personal level, it's unlikely we'll move them again simply because of more complaints about where they are now. With the amount of contention on the topic even among the 4 people here discussing it there's not even one clear side to take based on current players.

Some decisions will please some but upset others, that's just the reality of the situation. Though I do personally think we should get rid of the rule that allows AFK tagging that's outside of my decision power.

Also on a note about lore, it would be absurd for items of this magnitude to be sold anywhere at all. Sshamath in lore is gonna have a set of better magic items than BG, but we're still talking +2 tops. Even Avernus in lore isn't going to have a "+4 plus extras" shop. I had an idea once to make the epic shops a wandering merchant that had to be found first after every reset to buy those items, but I don't think people would like it because of a lack of accessibility.

I still do not see the reason why anything should be moved to Sshamath, who btw already has the same epic stores.

People tend to forget that all of these stores are not just epic stores thrown in there, some were originally guild merchants, that people worked years on getting established. Whether thats the DA, EDE or Darius merchant, or the Thayan Enclave, theres years of RP within the organisations to cement them on the server and having a store put in.

So the argument that Egil Darius should be transported to Sshamath because its inappropriate he sells good gear next to a fish stall.. well the guy sells snails too and other things, because of RP and who and how the Darius Holding Company started. I think that ought to factor in heavily when people request to throw it in to the Underdark, where there has been no RP to support this change.

You can critize how it is, but I see no legitimate arguments for why it should be changed and why years of RP should be swept under the rug so a few drow can play out some trade fiction that wont come to pass any ways.

If the Bregan D'aerthe (which has been around longer than even some of the aforementioned guilds) had a store introduced at some point in time, I for sure would not advocate to have it moved to the surface. And I think that would be a better goal to work towards, then re-locating present stores to Sshamath (who again already has the same selection from non-guild epic stores).

And I will once more refer to every D&D video game ever made, where the best stores are located in Cities and Towns, not in the Underdark, of all the Underdark content we have seen in games, shops were terribly underwhelming and theres no where that I have ever seen, that states drow cities have better stores than the biggest merchant ports in Faerun. Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Baldurs Gate and Athkatla are massive trade ports with everything imaginable in the material plane finding its way there. These cities have the biggest black markets too with thriving thieves guilds and shady organisations smuggling and stealing in these particular cities for a reason.

The Adventurer Mart in Athkatla is noticably one of the most epic stores in all of Faerun and its in the heart of Athkatla. Any ways, I think the RP that the organisations on the server has done to introduce stores over time, is more important than any one individuals opinion or three. Again id love to see more immersive stores if possible, but no relocation to arbitrary places fitting some weird fiction.

JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:20 am

cosmic ray wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:59 pm Current epic shop placement is dumb, but not anywhere as bad as when it was in Avernus and people kept boasting by the campfire that they had been to Hell and back ten times in the same month.

I think this sums it up right here. Your contention is that Sshmath should have the shops. . . but then we'd just get people bragging about going to Sshmath over and over, when it's supposed to be a harrowing journey for those topside.

Sshamath is a real mundane city on the Prime Material Plane. Avernus is one of the layers of Baator, where devils dwell. Are you really making that comparison?

Come on people, does it really take much effort to see something like this? Sshamath > evil trader > third party > good trader > surface customer.

This would foster trade roleplay between the surface and the underdark, but of course we can't have that. The underdark on bgtscc is best left forgotten and ignored, and it's much better to have god-like epic items being sold by ice cream vendors in central Baldur's Gate.

I am sorry for double posting, but I forgot to address something in my last post. I'm confused by the mentions to guild merchants; they are not an issue. The problem is not the Darius merchant selling like two epic items in central BG, but all the other ones right next to him selling hundreds of epic items. Guild merchants are fine.

cosmic ray wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:44 pm Sshamath > evil trader > third party > good trader > surface customer.

This is all I think anyone is really proposing. I’m also not lobbying against existing guild merchants - by all means keep what has been earned.

Rinzler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:11 pm

cosmic ray wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:44 pm Sshamath > evil trader > third party > good trader > surface customer.

This is all I think anyone is really proposing. I’m also not lobbying against existing guild merchants - by all means keep what has been earned.

Indeed. Speaking for myself, I never even suggested that all epic items should be moved there. I said the top ones should, and surface Elven and Dwarven settlements, meaning Doron Amar, En Dharasha Everae and Kraak Helzak, should receive a secondary assortment of epic items. The result of this would be the following, in order of epic item power level: Sshamath > DA/EDE/KH > BG > smaller human settlements. Guild merchants should be completely left out of this reshuffling.

Edit: relocating epic item stocks in BG so that they are not next to food vendors would also help to improve immersion, by the way.

What you are actually suggesting, is moving merchant RP from the biggest trade city on the server, to the Underdark and gate keeping the epic store.

There wont be a dozen people wanting to do IC interactions to get their stuff and there wont be a dozen factions wanting to set up some formal trade route with Drows.

Your next forum post will be a complain about the lawful good people heading to Sshamath, feeding the poor and helping the street urchins on their way to spend a million gold. And your so called impossed consequences, like having leverage on these people wont be a thing. You will see more AFK tags in Sshamath and more alt drows that are just serving as merchant characters.

Like I said before, it wont be a problem for established players, just an inconvenience and it wont create RP where there is none for a reason. If you want to pursue that arch, I do not see why it has to at the detriment of others, whether thats RP or creating some weird barriers to entry by basically reverting the store to its Avernus days, just placing it in a different kind of hellhole.

There is nothing preventing the UD players from pursueing trade routes of a different kind, but gatekeeping the epic store is kinda weird to me and wont have the intended effect at all I am afraid. So id once again encourage UD players to pursue having their own unique stores added, like the various guilds in the past did. Or creating something unique to Sshamath, that isnt at the expense of the surface. And no I do not hate the UD like you keep stating, I have multiple drow myself and repeatedly poke my head in down there myself. But I cant follow the logic of this suggested change at all. Even if magic items are generally stronger in the UD, we are not talking general examples. We have a lot of lore established about both these cities, there is no phrase in which im lead to believe Baldurs Gate is a shitty backwater trade hub and Sshamath is the sprawling city of epic trade.

Ithilan wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:47 pm We have a lot of lore established about both these cities, there is no phrase in which im lead to believe Baldurs Gate is a (p00pie) backwater trade hub and Sshamath is the sprawling city of epic trade.

Dont really want to address the whole post, I don't see epic shops changing anytime soon, but to address the above.

BG is indeed a known trade hub, but not of magical items. Obviously there'll be bazaars and some magical items, but talking strictly lore and not BGTSCC, BG has no horse in the race of magical trade like Sshamath. Sshamath is quite literally the biggest Underdark hub of magical trade, one of the biggest in the entire Realms. It is a magocratic society of thousands of years, with hundreds of extremely long lived (as they are drow) and powerful mages who's whole thing is magical research, through a neverending cold-war of magical discoveries between the Schools. That's what the lore supports. Baldurs Gate can't compete, Thay could though.

BG exports fish
Sshamath exports magic

Edit: Main sources of lore for both cities:
BG = Forgotten Realms Adventures
Sshamath = Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark
both are AD&D

renshouj wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:56 pm

BG is indeed a known trade hub, but not of magical items. Obviously there'll be bazaars and some magical items, but talking strictly lore and not BGTSCC, BG has no horse in the race of magical trade like Sshamath. Sshamath is quite literally the biggest Underdark hub of magical trade, one of the biggest in the entire Realms. It is a magocratic society of thousands of years, with hundreds of extremely long lived (as they are drow) and powerful mages who's whole thing is magical research, through a neverending cold-war of magical discoveries between the Schools. That's what the lore supports. Baldurs Gate can't compete, Thay could though.

BG exports fish
Sshamath exports magic

While this is true in regular lore, it's not necessarily true in our lore. In Lore, BG also doesn't have beings of super power walking around on a daily basis, and we even had a Thayan Enclave in BG before there was one in lore. People daily offload items to Blunt that are near the power of the items you can find in the city. It's just established fact.

In our setting, with the way things work, it would make zero sense for BG not to have an epic shop, as they have a steady, even daily supply of these types of items.

I do like to keep things to lore where it makes sense. But where our server lore differs from FR lore, we have to do what makes sense in our setting.

Any magic item stores in BG should be in the Enclave. That's sort of their whole deal, it's the whole reason cities value Enclaves and want to get one: access to magical items. If we were to ever change it, it'd most likely be to move the BG epic store into the Enclave.


... also epic items shouldn't be available in any city, BG or Sshamath, but that ship has long sailed. Availability for magical items is supposed to be quite rare, with most you can actually buy needing to be custom ordered rather than available for general browsing.

Ithilan wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:47 pm What you are actually suggesting, is moving merchant RP from the biggest trade city on the server, to the Underdark and gate keeping the epic store.

There wont be a dozen people wanting to do IC interactions to get their stuff and there wont be a dozen factions wanting to set up some formal trade route with Drows.

Your next forum post will be a complain about the lawful good people heading to Sshamath, feeding the poor and helping the street urchins on their way to spend a million gold. And your so called impossed consequences, like having leverage on these people wont be a thing. You will see more AFK tags in Sshamath and more alt drows that are just serving as merchant characters.

Like I said before, it wont be a problem for established players, just an inconvenience and it wont create RP where there is none for a reason. If you want to pursue that arch, I do not see why it has to at the detriment of others, whether thats RP or creating some weird barriers to entry by basically reverting the store to its Avernus days, just placing it in a different kind of hellhole.

There is nothing preventing the UD players from pursueing trade routes of a different kind, but gatekeeping the epic store is kinda weird to me and wont have the intended effect at all I am afraid. So id once again encourage UD players to pursue having their own unique stores added, like the various guilds in the past did. Or creating something unique to Sshamath, that isnt at the expense of the surface. And no I do not hate the UD like you keep stating, I have multiple drow myself and repeatedly poke my head in down there myself. But I cant follow the logic of this suggested change at all. Even if magic items are generally stronger in the UD, we are not talking general examples. We have a lot of lore established about both these cities, there is no phrase in which im lead to believe Baldurs Gate is a (p00pie) backwater trade hub and Sshamath is the sprawling city of epic trade.

Yes, it is true that underdark rp has been dead for a long time now, and part of the reason for that is that VIP surface players helped kill it. Still, what goes on in the underdark still beats the socialite garden party bake sales rp with no consequences that increasingly dominates the surface.

Endelyon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 3:16 pm I had an idea once to make the epic shops a wandering merchant that had to be found first after every reset to buy those items, but I don't think people would like it because of a lack of accessibility.

This is, in my opinion, the best answer from a realistic perspective. You're right though, it would immediately be complaints about the lack of convenience having to check the rotation. There's no solution that will make everybody happy, but if you want a solution that makes the most sense, it's this one. There's no reason any merchant should be selling anything that exceeds a +2 weapon in an easy to reach place.

That being said, most players have their best-in-slot epic items already, so changing the epic shop now just shafts new players. Not a great idea considering the new-player experience on the server is already a pain.

The only fair solution is to vault-wipe and change all the shops!