Teleportation Scrolls - Soubar

[Valleriani]

1) don’t poke the sleeping bear.
2) Staff hates Mindflayer merchants!!!!

Poor Vesak. #SaveTheIllithids

To be fair I don't want scorch earth

On this topic I think teleport scrolls should be removed all over (Really all scrolls)

My thought process is that it's desirable to encourage player interaction with regards to acquiring new spells.

I get this idea, but I feel like it's not going to have the exact effect you will be expecting More of an inconvenience than fun RP if everyone needs to do it. Rather leave RP to actual more interesting stuff other then the same drone RP of getting someone to scribe stuff, which will almost always be done in OOC anyways because it's tedious and people have groups.

[selhan]

Was making a long opinion but decided I'll just tap out and say screw it lol

I Much rather have a teleport stone that can take me to any map (big locations)

[Rhifox]

Teleportation is far, far too rampant on the server, and we don't want to increase the QoL of it. Quite the opposite.

I know there are a lot of people who stay online for 8 hours at a time, but some people only have an hour or two at most of free time to play most days. Like me. I want to spend as little of that time walking from place to place as possible. Limitations on teleportation are a punishment for people who have busy real lives. I plead with you to rethink this position.

Teleportation allows people to avoid traveling on the road, and therefore, avoid running into other players, and thus allowing players to refuse to RP outside of their own isolated bubbles. Teleportation benefits grinding. But we are an RP server, not a grinding one, and teleportation hurts RP.

Ideally we go back to teleportation having a cooldown. This way, you're able to use it to get to where you need to go right away (if you don't have time to walk), but you can't use it to just zip and dash to and from grinding/selling areas, as people currently do now.

I have a busy life too. But I do not want a server where it is impossible to run into people outside of guildhalls/player houses because players will just teleport to and from those areas and ignore all the intervening areas and any possibility of running into other players.

So on server 2 you either have to take a trip to the underdark or swap servers to get teleportation scrolls. And the argument against it is that there are already too many ways to get teleportation scrolls? What?

You have to do the same thing to buy items from the epic store. Should Soubar get a copy of the epic store too, then?

You can buy hundreds of scrolls at a time, the stores are unlimited. One trip and you're set with scrolls for a year. I really am not seeing the issue here. Scroll stores are not meant to all have the same scrolls. You're meant to have to shop around and visit different areas. Why do we want to encourage players to be able to just stay in one place and have everything they need there? I see no reason to good reason to change this. Even if it was some other spell I would be opposed to it.


... and frankly if it was up to me, no vendor would have higher than like level 2-3 scrolls (and most of that would be in the RW Enclave, which is supposed to be one of the few places in the setting where one actually can readily buy magical items). Spells being so easily and readily available really breaks with the wizard class fantasy of discovering new spells through research and adventure (and hoarding them to make sure that you know spells no one else does, rather than sharing them with everyone). It's like the epic store, except vastly cheaper. But that's a ship that's long sailed.

[Kitunenotsume]

I'd rather remove them from the other stores. Teleportation is far, far too rampant on the server, and we don't want to increase the QoL of it. Quite the opposite.

I don't see any reason to add them to Soubar. You have just listed multiple other locations where they can be acquired.

Things being on stores also takes away from player economy. You can ask player mages to craft them for you in bulk.

Should it matter and in the interests of increasing community voices on the topic, I support this approach.
It applies to more than just Scrolls, but I've conversed on those before.

[selhan]

Teleportation is far, far too rampant on the server, and we don't want to increase the QoL of it. Quite the opposite.

I know there are a lot of people who stay online for 8 hours at a time, but some people only have an hour or two at most of free time to play most days. Like me. I want to spend as little of that time walking from place to place as possible. Limitations on teleportation are a punishment for people who have busy real lives. I plead with you to rethink this position.

Teleportation allows people to avoid traveling on the road, and therefore, avoid running into other players, and thus allowing players to refuse to RP outside of their own isolated bubbles. Teleportation benefits grinding. But we are an RP server, not a grinding one, and teleportation hurts RP.

Ideally we go back to teleportation having a cooldown. This way, you're able to use it to get to where you need to go right away (if you don't have time to walk), but you can't use it to just zip and dash to and from grinding/selling areas, as people currently do now.

I have a busy life too. But I do not want a server where it is impossible to run into people outside of guildhalls/player houses because players will just teleport to and from those areas and ignore all the intervening areas and any possibility of running into other players.

So on server 2 you either have to take a trip to the underdark or swap servers to get teleportation scrolls. And the argument against it is that there are already too many ways to get teleportation scrolls? What?

You have to do the same thing to buy items from the epic store. Should Soubar get a copy of the epic store too, then?

You can buy hundreds of scrolls at a time, the stores are unlimited. One trip and you're set with scrolls for a year. I really am not seeing the issue here. Scroll stores are not meant to all have the same scrolls. You're meant to have to shop around and visit different areas. Why do we want to encourage players to be able to just stay in one place and have everything they need there? I see no reason to good reason to change this. Even if it was some other spell I would be opposed to it.


... and frankly if it was up to me, no vendor would have higher than like level 2-3 scrolls (and most of that would be in the RW Enclave, which is supposed to be one of the few places in the setting where one actually can readily buy magical items). Spells being so easily and readily available really breaks with the wizard class fantasy of discovering new spells through research and adventure (and hoarding them to make sure that you know spells no one else does, rather than sharing them with everyone). It's like the epic store, except vastly cheaper. But that's a ship that's long sailed.

See one teleport stone at 100% success rate twice use per day Fixed! Can only have one stone in inventory!
*Intelligence of a bartender nod nod*

[Green Monster]

Teleportation allows people to avoid traveling on the road, and therefore, avoid running into other players, and thus allowing players to refuse to RP outside of their own isolated bubbles. Teleportation benefits grinding. But we are an RP server, not a grinding one, and teleportation hurts RP.

Ideally we go back to teleportation having a cooldown. This way, you're able to use it to get to where you need to go right away (if you don't have time to walk), but you can't use it to just zip and dash to and from grinding/selling areas, as people currently do now.

What about a limitation on the number of times per reset teleportation can be done in the form of a decreasing success rate per attempt at cast?

Step one: Make Mirror walk and Shadow Walk have the same utility as Teleport, they suck rn. Or at least Mirror Walk does. It's so useless rn with such a high chance of failure I just spell swapped it out of my favoured soul character's repetoire.

Step two: Each time a character breaches the bounds of three dimensional space through ANY form of teleportation, the chance of success goes down for the next time. Example: You cast Mirror Walk, you have a 100% chance of getting where you want to go and the usual chance of taking damage from mirror creatures along the way. Next time you cast, it's an 80% chance. Then 60%. Et cetera. Success rates reset on server reset. And the chance is the same no matter what spell you use, because you're experiencing physical reality fighting back against you like you're a virus and the Weave is the immune system. So if you cast Mirror Walk for the first time in a reset you get 100% chance of getting there and the next time it'll be 80% even if you use Teleport instead.

[GholaMan]

Teleportation is far, far too rampant on the server, and we don't want to increase the QoL of it. Quite the opposite.

Teleportation allows people to avoid traveling on the road, and therefore, avoid running into other players, and thus allowing players to refuse to RP outside of their own isolated bubbles. Teleportation benefits grinding. But we are an RP server, not a grinding one, and teleportation hurts RP.

Ideally we go back to teleportation having a cooldown. This way, you're able to use it to get to where you need to go right away (if you don't have time to walk), but you can't use it to just zip and dash to and from grinding/selling areas, as people currently do now.

I have a busy life too. But I do not want a server where it is impossible to run into people outside of guildhalls/player houses because players will just teleport to and from those areas and ignore all the intervening areas and any possibility of running into other players.

This is 100% false. People gather in convenient areas, such as mistlake, soubar, FAI, outside BG because it is close to services that players/adventurers need to do their thing. I do remember a time before the server had teleportation scrolls. 90% of RP still took place at hubs, this has not changed at all because of teleportation. Using teleportation has nothing to do with avoiding people but everything to do with being efficient. Guildhalls and player houses have nothing to do with teleportation. Slippery slope arguments are not factual

You have to do the same thing to buy items from the epic store. Should Soubar get a copy of the epic store too, then?

Are you really trying to say buying an item from the epic store is the same as buying a consumable? Alright bet, since BG has healing kits soubar should not right? No, that logic simply doesn't hold up, no one is talking about making every location sell identical things. We are talking about adding a consumable scroll to a scroll vendor that already exists. Your statement has nothing to do with that at all.

You can buy hundreds of scrolls at a time, the stores are unlimited. One trip and you're set with scrolls for a year. I really am not seeing the issue here.

So inventory has a limit, no one walks around with a hundred teleportation scrolls. People just don't buy that many scrolls, surely you must understand that people just don't walk around with hundreds of scrolls on them. Most people do not have that kind of luxury for inventory space. And if you are going to mention storing them on a vendor why bother with drawing that line? We are okay with people buying thousands of scrolls and keeping them on a vendor but not okay with adding a single scroll to an already established scroll vendor?

Scroll stores are not meant to all have the same scrolls. You're meant to have to shop around and visit different areas. Why do we want to encourage players to be able to just stay in one place and have everything they need there? I see no reason to good reason to change this. Even if it was some other spell I would be opposed to it.

Yeah we don't want the same scrolls for every location we just want 1 scroll. And yeah I can tell you would be opposed to adding any scroll that kind of goes with your reasoning. You are opposed on principle not on logic.

... and frankly if it was up to me, no vendor would have higher than like level 2-3 scrolls (and most of that would be in the RW Enclave, which is supposed to be one of the few places in the setting where one actually can readily buy magical items). Spells being so easily and readily available really breaks with the wizard class fantasy of discovering new spells through research and adventure (and hoarding them to make sure that you know spells no one else does, rather than sharing them with everyone). It's like the epic store, except vastly cheaper. But that's a ship that's long sailed.

Its not really like the epic store though, because unless you make blank scrolls super rare people are going to share spells rather than hoard them. Comparing the epic store to scrolls is comparing fish to birds, they are two different animals. Just think about how many wizards on the server can cast 9th level spells right now? If you were to erase every scroll vendor and make blank scrolls rare, then and only then would scrolls be rare enough to hoard. But does this actually sound fun to you? Does anyone actually want this? There is a server that does this, and I find it to be their worst mechanic by far. And to be fair, i think that improving the wizard fantasy merits a discussion, but adding a scroll to a vendor when scrolls are already abundant, and that scroll is used prolifically will actually just change nothing.

[Flasmix]

I use them player wise to get to and from loot run locations. I could totally pull a "Back in my day we had to run all the way to Nashkel just to go to the frost peaks" and... ... I hated it lol. It was annoying then and as someone who works 13-15 hour days; when I want to hop on for a quick loot run I am not in the mood for some deep meaningful road RP. Speaking for myself, I like the teleport scrolls. If it's a matter of RP then let's add a wizard NPC in the RP hubs who can teleport parties to some of the popular grinding/loot run locations.

[Saharez]

Teleportation is far, far too rampant on the server, and we don't want to increase the QoL of it. Quite the opposite.

Teleportation allows people to avoid traveling on the road, and therefore, avoid running into other players, and thus allowing players to refuse to RP outside of their own isolated bubbles. Teleportation benefits grinding. But we are an RP server, not a grinding one, and teleportation hurts RP.

Ideally we go back to teleportation having a cooldown. This way, you're able to use it to get to where you need to go right away (if you don't have time to walk), but you can't use it to just zip and dash to and from grinding/selling areas, as people currently do now.

I have a busy life too. But I do not want a server where it is impossible to run into people outside of guildhalls/player houses because players will just teleport to and from those areas and ignore all the intervening areas and any possibility of running into other players.

This is 100% false. People gather in convenient areas, such as mistlake, soubar, FAI, outside BG because it is close to services that players/adventurers need to do their thing. I do remember a time before the server had teleportation scrolls. 90% of RP still took place at hubs, this has not changed at all because of teleportation. Using teleportation has nothing to do with avoiding people but everything to do with being efficient. Guildhalls and player houses have nothing to do with teleportation. Slippery slope arguments are not factual

You are missing the point here, Rhifox does not go into why people gather, Rhifox merely points to people gathering in specific locations and use teleport to go from A to B taking away the opportunity from players encountering other players on the road.

Rhifox could have pointed out that some players also spend time at the larger cities but it remains 100% true that teleportation means roads are rarely used and so random encounters between players are reduced.

... and frankly if it was up to me, no vendor would have higher than like level 2-3 scrolls (and most of that would be in the RW Enclave, which is supposed to be one of the few places in the setting where one actually can readily buy magical items). Spells being so easily and readily available really breaks with the wizard class fantasy of discovering new spells through research and adventure (and hoarding them to make sure that you know spells no one else does, rather than sharing them with everyone). It's like the epic store, except vastly cheaper. But that's a ship that's long sailed.

Its not really like the epic store though, because unless you make blank scrolls super rare people are going to share spells rather than hoard them. Comparing the epic store to scrolls is comparing fish to birds, they are two different animals. Just think about how many wizards on the server can cast 9th level spells right now? If you were to erase every scroll vendor and make blank scrolls rare, then and only then would scrolls be rare enough to hoard. But does this actually sound fun to you? Does anyone actually want this? There is a server that does this, and I find it to be their worst mechanic by far. And to be fair, i think that improving the wizard fantasy merits a discussion, but adding a scroll to a vendor when scrolls are already abundant, and that scroll is used prolifically will actually just change nothing.

There is also a concern about scrolls being cheaper than their crafting cost, especially at the higher levels.
Take Shapechange, I can buy that for 1250-1300 gold from a vendor, while if I were to craft that scroll it would cost 3825 gold.

Scrolls are so easily available and so affordable right now that spells are not at all special, which goes straight against the lore of the server.

I use them player wise to get to and from loot run locations. I could totally pull a "Back in my day we had to run all the way to Nashkel just to go to the frost peaks" and... ... I hated it lol. It was annoying then and as someone who works 13-15 hour days; when I want to hop on for a quick loot run I am not in the mood for some deep meaningful road RP. Speaking for myself, I like the teleport scrolls. If it's a matter of RP then let's add a wizard NPC in the RP hubs who can teleport parties to some of the popular grinding/loot run locations.

I think a good solution which preserves mobility and keeps scrolls sparse, while having people traverse roads, would be to have direct connections to/from every major city. (on the surface)

I don't know enough about the Underdark to suggest something similar there.

This would make players less dependent on teleportation for getting around and so meaningful and consistent steps could be undertaken to reduce scroll availability in general.

[Kitunenotsume]

I use them player wise to get to and from loot run locations. I could totally pull a "Back in my day we had to run all the way to Nashkel just to go to the frost peaks" and... ... I hated it lol. It was annoying then and as someone who works 13-15 hour days; when I want to hop on for a quick loot run I am not in the mood for some deep meaningful road RP. Speaking for myself, I like the teleport scrolls. If it's a matter of RP then let's add a wizard NPC in the RP hubs who can teleport parties to some of the popular grinding/loot run locations.

I think a good solution which preserves mobility and keeps scrolls sparse, while having people traverse roads, would be to have direct connections to/from every major city. (on the surface)

I don't know enough about the Underdark to suggest something similar there.

This would make players less dependent on teleportation for getting around and so meaningful and consistent steps could be undertaken to reduce scroll availability in general.

I don't think the removal of teleportation scrolls from stores would involve the removal of the Caravan stops, so traveling between hubs is still perfectly viable between a fixed set of locations. Current circuits include: (I do not guarantee specific performance or complete accuracy on these lists)
The Rocky Creek caravan - servicing BG(Outer City), Nashkel, Greenest, and Kraak Helzak
The Northern Caravan route - servicing Roaringshore, Soubar, Corm Orp, and Darkhold
The Boating services - servicing BG(Docks), Candlekeep Coast, Ulgoth's Beard, Roaringshore, and the Bridge (in addition to a couple other side locations)

I recall that the UD used to have some boat and tunnel-guide networks, but I do not have experience there.
Some efforts have been attempted by players to expand the existing networks, but I have been previously informed that 3 or 4 nodes may have been the largest permissible maintained by a single guild due to each caravan-stop counting as a guild asset in addition to their server utility.
Also noted - the system exists for more guilds to work at establishing fast-travel networks between the hubs of their choice if they invest the time and resources into such utilities.

If teleport scrolls were more restricted, most fast-travel would necessarily start and end at Hub locations rather than the front door of a dungeon unless your party included a caster or a caster's customer. While this does not entirely coincide with the listed goal of 'traveling via road' for the full distance, it does encourage last-mile travel and provides additional value to those hubs from traffic that would have otherwise bypassed them.

[DaloLorn]

I recall that the UD used to have some boat and tunnel-guide networks, but I do not have experience there.

• Boat between Neblinstone and Rockrun Pass
• Boat between Spore Grove and Mist Lake
• Caravan between Varalla's Passage, Mist Lake, and Illithid Hive
• Svirfneblin guide between River Rift and... somewhere (may have been removed by now, actually!)
• Portal between Varalla's Passage and Dark Weavings Bazaar (really just avoids the endless spiraling descent down the central spire)
• Portal between Dark Weavings and Darkwoods District
• Portal between Commander's Tent and Mist Lake (I'm 99% sure that should be off-limits to most PCs, though... not that it matters when the caravan is just a few transitions away if you're in South Sshamath)
• Boat between Sshamath Crypt and Darkwoods District
• Boat between Ha'rol Den and Darkwoods District

That's all the fast travel options currently in the UD that I can think of. There's a handful of Upperdark transitions, one of which is a guild asset, but all of these require Survival checks and most of them require passage through mid-to-high-epic adventure zones.

On the flip side, the UD is structured in such a way that the Varalla/Vallanar/Hive route gets you within just a few transitions of basically anywhere you want to adventure at any level.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Removal of teleportation will not incentivize more roleplay, just a return to awkward pre teleport run-walk-nod-run behaviors. Unless you're hall monitoring in lieu expect the same haste+invis combinations that were done prior to teleportation's implementation; something that happens even today in botched cross server teleports that sends people into places they didn't intend.

On this topic I think teleport scrolls should be removed all over (Really all scrolls)
My thought process is that it's desirable to encourage player interaction with regards to acquiring new spells.

I get this idea, but I feel like it's not going to have the exact effect you will be expecting More of an inconvenience than fun RP if everyone needs to do it. Rather leave RP to actual more interesting stuff other then the same drone RP of getting someone to scribe stuff, which will almost always be done in OOC anyways because it's tedious and people have groups.

For much of the PW's history many arcane scrolls were not in stores and needed to be acquired via another player if one wanted to fill out their book beyond the level up process. Most transactions were handled OOCly by caster book banks. They may have a moment of IC interaction but it boiled down to "Do you have ___ ?" "Yes" Gold and scroll exchange. The weather wasn't even discussed, let alone anything of meaningfulness in the transaction. Purchases at the most recent mage duel didn't move past a few very rudimentary lines.

[Titania_1]

Removal of teleportation will not incentivize more roleplay, just a return to awkward pre teleport run-walk-nod-run behaviors.

Hard agree. Even now when running place to place on my 0 UMD character who cant use any form of teleportation, people who are also using the roads aren't role-playing. Usually it's just a run-by or a single nod. WOO! Great RP! We need more of that!

IMO, that's not quality rp.

People who are using scrolls to get from point A to point B are doing so to save time. Maybe there's a player waiting for them at point B? Maybe they don't have IRL time to stop and roleplay? Maybe teleporting to a location to quickly grab something and to teleport back actually gives them more time to roleplay, which is actually the goal for a roleplaying game? There are many reasons people choose to teleport instead of walk. If they had all the time in the world and actually wanted to roleplay, they'd be using the roads and role-playing. Forcing interaction by taking away teleport scrolls isn't the way to get people to roleplay. It just makes the people already concerned with point B have to run to get there and just wastes more player time.

Instead of forcing/punishing players, why aren't we incentivizing more? Make it worth their time to roleplay on the roads. Make them WANT to travel on the roads more. Respect a player's limited time. Why add more game-improvement strategies centered around making things harder/more inconvenient instead of making things more desirable? There's a time and place for providing struggles and challenges in a game, but this isn't one of them.

[Endelyon]

The mindflayer already has plenty of amazing scrolls that aren't available on any other vendor. I'm not keen on adding Teleport to it on top of all the great scrolls it already has for the sake of maximum convenience, different vendors having different spells is part of the module's design.

I haven't seen a good case made here to change our module's design either by removing teleport scrolls entirely or by adding them to Soubar.

[Steve]

The mindflayer already has plenty of amazing scrolls that aren't available on any other vendor. I'm not keen on adding Teleport to it on top of all the great scrolls it already has for the sake of maximum convenience, different vendors having different spells is part of the module's design.

I haven't seen a good case made here to change our module's design either by removing teleport scrolls entirely or by adding them to Soubar.

The now deleted suggestion to address this In-Character was by far the best “good case” suggestion.