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Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:29 pm
by matelener
If you're not in search mode and you don't have Keen Senses, you're rolling only d10 in spot check.
So, with 90 spot vs 100 hide, your chance of spotting someone is 0 without additional hidden modifiers/search/keen senses.
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:52 pm
by selhan
Which does meta reveal them anyways the moment they set a person hostile lol.
Ninja Gear sucks just wanted to say it lol.
Spot/Listen:
Eyes of the Eagle +5/+0 (48000gp)
Greater Amulet of the Stalker +3/3 (14000gp)
Greater Cloak of the Stalker +4/+4 (85000gp)
Elven Archer Bracers +3/+3 (125000gp)
Rogue's Spotter Ring +3/+2 (5800gp)
Rogue's Spotter Ring +3/+2 (5800gp)
Robe of Eyes +4/+0 (320000gp)
Assassin's Infiltrator +3/+3 (6000gp)
Boots of Initiative +4/+3 (131000gp)
Watcher's Baton +2/+2 (58000gp)
Watcher's Baton +2/+2 (58000gp)
Theres a +5 Spot Belt often found. Not from a Merchant however.
And theres a Bracer that gives you +4 to Spot
36 Spot
24 Listen
Hide/MS:
Ninja Cowl, Epic +4/+4 and Stealthy +2/+2 (265000gp)
Greater Amulet of the Stalker +3/3 (14000gp)
Greater Cloak of the Stalker +4/+4 (85000gp)
Battlefield Scout's Gloves +4/+4 (125000gp)
Assassin's Finger +2/+2 (15000gp)
Assassin's Finger +2/+2 (15000gp)
Ninjas Robe of Stars, Epic +4/+4 (325000gp)
Acromatic Belt +3/+3 (81000gp)
Ninja Boots, Epic +4/+4 (455000gp)
Rogue's Stealth Dagger +3 +3/+3 (34500gp)
Rogue's Stealth Dagger +3 +3/+3 (34500gp)
36 Hide (+2 from Stealthy)
36 MS (+2 from Stealthy)
But yes off topic lol
Back to Topic- Other than Dalo making it clear, I've still gonna say, there's no need to change . I stand by "Supernatural" abilities (Hips) vs Mundane abilities (Regular Stealth) Regular stealth you have to break the line of sight or your not stealthing at all. And Hips is that "supernatural" ability that lets you not have to worry of breaking the line of sight. Its what the ability was made for.
If a player wants to be a Mundane sneak, they got the option roll a sneak class without Hips. Hell technically everybody can stealth, everyone has the button for it lol. Question is, are they good enough lol
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 1:59 am
by DaloLorn
matelener wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:29 pm
If you're not in search mode and you don't have Keen Senses, you're rolling only d10 in spot check.
So, with 90 spot vs 100 hide, your chance of spotting someone is 0 without additional hidden modifiers/search/keen senses.
It's a lot heavier than that. You're not just rolling a d10: You're getting half your skill modifier, too.
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 8:20 am
by matelener
DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 1:59 am
matelener wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:29 pm
If you're not in search mode and you don't have Keen Senses, you're rolling only d10 in spot check.
So, with 90 spot vs 100 hide, your chance of spotting someone is 0 without additional hidden modifiers/search/keen senses.
It's a lot heavier than that. You're not just rolling a d10: You're getting half your skill modifier, too.
I was skeptical to that part because it doesn't align with my recollection of playing a high spot druid. But, there is one piece of information that was missed:
If you are standing still (possibly walking too), you automatically gain the benefits of Search mode.
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 8:38 pm
by JustAnotherGuy
DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 1:59 am
matelener wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:29 pm
If you're not in search mode and you don't have Keen Senses, you're rolling only d10 in spot check.
So, with 90 spot vs 100 hide, your chance of spotting someone is 0 without additional hidden modifiers/search/keen senses.
It's a lot heavier than that. You're not just rolling a d10: You're getting half your skill modifier, too.
I've not seen the code, but as a spotter druid, when I had 82 spot, I could see anyone, even if they had 100 hide (unless they were hostile). This was without search mode on. There were sneaks who would actively avoid my druid because of this back then.
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 6:39 pm
by Blackman D
a spotter gets either 1 round per round (normal walking), 3 rolls per round (search mode) or 5 rolls per round (keen senses)
a stealther only gets 1 roll upon entering stealth which is of course hidden in the engine so not even they know what they got, could be a 20 could be a 1, better off just ignoring that you get one
toggling hostiles does weird things, enables somethings and disable others, its possible that it forced another stealth roll or something and he managed to roll high enough that exceeded your spot capability
mind you, time of day and location also matter, if you are trying to spot in the dark you are not at an advantage
all the hidden engine modifiers make sense though, + hide at night, + spot during the day, etc.
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:49 am
by predrag
Ok , since so many are playing hips characters and no one wants to change them .
How about a small buff to spotters ?
Make a helm with keen senses feat , make it really expensive but obtainable at some shops .
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2024 2:14 pm
by Garnet
I think like discussed above, its already quite easy to for a spotter to see us sneaks (especially a dedicated one). We already got hit pretty bad when they added the little mask icon above our heads when sneaking *Cry* but that is neither here nor there.
Making hide/sneaking characters easier to spot I feel would just kill another element of RP for many of us. Dedicated stealthy characters are masters of their craft and quite often sacrifice many feats just to get there (as probably a dedicated spotter did too) and thus the two are a bit of cat and mouse in a good way
but making it easier for the 'rank and file' adventurers to spot those who dedicate themselves to being sneaky would really kill it for us
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2024 2:36 pm
by predrag
Garnet wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 2:14 pm
I think like discussed above, its already quite easy to for a spotter to see us sneaks
I'll have to re-read the topic , as I got the opposite impression .
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2024 3:58 pm
by Blackman D
keen senses if never going to be added to an item, it happened before and caused two guilds to be disbanded from player use because of item abuse and favoritism
if you want keen senses play an elf
spotters have it easy, you only have to focus 1 skill where a sneak has to focus 2
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:35 am
by predrag
Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 3:58 pm
spotters have it easy, you only have to focus 1 skill where a sneak has to focus 2
That's really oversimplifying the major problem with this mechanic , more so nearly all gear with hide has move silently too .
I personally don't care about Keen Senses , just what I read in this topic and discord suggested detection is near impossible without it , lest I misunderstood .
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:52 am
by izzul
predrag wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:35 am
Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 3:58 pm
spotters have it easy, you only have to focus 1 skill where a sneak has to focus 2
That's really oversimplifying the major problem with this mechanic , more so nearly all gear with hide has move silently too .
I personally don't care about Keen Senses , just what I read in this topic and discord suggested detection is near impossible without it , lest I misunderstood .
its not nearly impossible, just tedious when you need to click search + move slowly while waiting to detect.
its not an issue when you are jay walking, its an issue when you need to detect fast when the hips are beside you utilizing that 1-3 seconds window and attack you asap before the detection mechanics kicks in/or before you are able to detect.
the sequence is
---->run close to the one you want to sneak attack------>5-10 feet before you reach him click hips(so you are so close)----->even when he is spotter will take time-----> sneak attack before he spots you using that split second window-----> jump --------> rinse and repeat.
you can also rinse and repeat this using hips mage and quicken breach + bigby before the spotter gets enough time to spot and react.
there are few ways to deal with this/counter this, but the spot gears wont help you much hence why they say it is slanted on one side(the side that utilizes the window) and not the other side.
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:29 pm
by JustAnotherGuy
Essentially, under normal circumstances, spotters have a gigantic advantage. However, in PvP, the sneak has window of gigantic advantage once they use HiPS. To add to this (and keeping in mind I don't see the code, just have a bit of experience) it seems that those in stealth sometimes get sneak attacks even when spotted. I haven't tested this in PvP, but the Tasloi in the Cloakwoods are easily seen, yet sometimes get sneak attacks against my spotter.
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:45 pm
by Ithrinael
Well, not necessarily related to sneak mode. I had my full front fighter somehow sneak attack enemies which were clearly engaged in combat with him, hurling spells. But somehow I sneak attacked them?
Have not found any pattern yet, but I am looking.
Re: Idea for Hips/Diversion
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 7:23 pm
by Blackman D
izzul wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:52 am
predrag wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:35 am
Blackman D wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 3:58 pm
spotters have it easy, you only have to focus 1 skill where a sneak has to focus 2
That's really oversimplifying the major problem with this mechanic , more so nearly all gear with hide has move silently too .
I personally don't care about Keen Senses , just what I read in this topic and discord suggested detection is near impossible without it , lest I misunderstood .
its not nearly impossible, just tedious when you need to click search + move slowly while waiting to detect.
its not an issue when you are jay walking, its an issue when you need to detect fast when the hips are beside you utilizing that 1-3 seconds window and attack you asap before the detection mechanics kicks in/or before you are able to detect.
the sequence is
---->run close to the one you want to sneak attack------>5-10 feet before you reach him click hips(so you are so close)----->even when he is spotter will take time-----> sneak attack before he spots you using that split second window-----> jump --------> rinse and repeat.
you can also rinse and repeat this using hips mage and quicken breach + bigby before the spotter gets enough time to spot and react.
there are few ways to deal with this/counter this, but the spot gears wont help you much hence why they say it is slanted on one side(the side that utilizes the window) and not the other side.
while this is possible, bare in mind that it is also considered an exploit to do it right next to someone
you are suppose to fully disengage someone if you are going to hips before reattacking them, not just side step so you can hide and get more sneaks
its literally the reason you cant put hips on NPCs, they will abuse it worse than any player could