Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I haven't worked for my epic levels yet so I can't comment on the XP pace. I do know that this thread will get locked again if the tone isn't kept civil. Please please, since this seems to be an important issue to a lot of people, it's important that it can be talked about about without getting threads locked for civil disorder. That certainly won't get us any closer to different RCR settings or changed in XP pace. Count to ten! (Or a hundred!)

metaquad4 wrote:Why not keep the 50% RCRs, once these update are sorted out and everything is working of course, but create a separate 100% RCR machine in a DM land.

. . .

In addition to this and/or separate from this, we could introduce a de-level/re-level machine, that takes away a set amount of xp and immediately gives it back.

This could solve those "I need to de-level and re-level to re-do my skills" or "I want a cool new feat/spell/etc that was introduced in one of those smaller updates". It would also make it so people don't lose as many items to muling errors.

Not going to bash you for not reading because I didn't actually read all of it myself...

The de-level re-level bot sounds like an excellent suggestion!

Regaring the 100% RCR, aside from my earlier suggestions I just again want to point out that it's easy to suggest things like these but ultimately it's up to staff to determine if they have room to add the request or teleportation service to 100% bot in DM land to their work load, even if they would like the idea.

flipside43 wrote:

trogers2 wrote:I totally agree! The XP rate is already really low, and it only gets harder and harder as you climb the levels; now at level 19 I am still only getting 20xp - 30xp per kill, the same amount I was getting at level 1! People make honest mistakes when it comes to their characters and forcing them to rebuild their toon with a 50% xp penalty is a HUGE slap in the face; that 50% xp could be many months (or even years) of hard work gone, and you are punishing the player for their loyailty to the server - it can lead to fustration, and some players possibly even leaving the community.

It used to be 0%, that is, delete and try again. Getting 50% back is actually quite huge. Everyone is responsible for building their characters. That is why modules like Jegs are available.

My main opposition to the idea of the penalty is the fact that it forced stagnation in characters. Instead of experiences in-game changing your character dynamically from like... some Cleric/BG of Bhaal into some fighter for Tyr... you were forced to take a 50% (or 100%) hit. That's a high price for having a character that actually changed due to rp.

That OOC "damnit, I don't want to set my character back, literally YEARS." shouldn't be a factor in a character's development. But it is.

I've experienced that with all but my most-pigeon-holed characters.

Poor Paws is on his third (or is it fourth?) RCR.

And just today, I accidentally leveled my gnome druid in another class (wasn't paying attention) and shoved him into a big ole multiclass penalty. Delevels are... well they demand time from DMs and apparently there are exploits that can be hatched with delevels. I could fix the character myself with a RCR if it wasn't for the XP hit.

NegInfinity wrote:

NeOmega wrote: Slap in the face? It's a game, games have rules. Games like this have rules to make things feel earned. What good is XP if you can just hand it around to any new character you want?

Rules are made by people, FOR people, have a purpose, and can be changed. The purpose of rules is supposed to be having fun.

So what is fun? I have an idea, let's allow cheat codes. That would be "fun" to some. Also, let's not have people die, after all, what fun is dying?

No big deal" because I know you wouldn't be happy if that did happen.

It makes me really consider my builds. And I have RCR'd high level characters, and took the hit. It really doesn't bother me much. (Don't make me bust out everybody's favorite, "HEy, this server is all about teh are-pee anyways!)

Perhaps, when you make a new character, they get 100% RCR token. 100%, any time. RCR XP would then only be transferrable between a character of the same name and race, and within 1 alignment shift.

any other RCR afterwards would need the 50% penalty and cap.

NeOmega wrote:when you make a new character, they get 100% RCR token. 100%, any time. RCR XP would then only be transferrable between a character of the same name and race, and within 1 alignment shift.

I'm all for this idea actually, if it can be done - as I said in my last post; there are loads of ways this can be done, while also being fair. I am not asking for players to have 100% RCR 'free reign' all I am asking for is the chance to change 'small' details on a character i.e. feats, skill points etc... What I do not want to see is people changing class-willy-nilly every 5 days because that is abuse of the RCR system.

It makes me really consider my builds. And I have RCR'd high level characters, and took the hit. It really doesn't bother me much. (Don't make me bust out everybody's favorite, "HEy, this server is all about teh are-pee anyways!)

I also considered my build - very hard when I came back and it did not work out the way I wanted - The chance to RCR for me was a massive breath of fresh air and I am much happier because I was able to reshape my character by making her wisdom based, not dex based. This story is common; I can list names (with their permission) of people who felt the same and were greatful the RCR was there - if players are happy with their toons then that can only make the RP better for all of us - why force yourself to play a character you do not like? Also, as I said in my last post - it can break RP if you are known as a champian (level 30) then suddenly become half-as-powerful; how do you RP that?

You make good characters first time, that is awesome - but not all of us can; its like usain bolt saying he can run fast, why can't everyone else? People will ALWAYS make mistakes, no matter how hard they try (case and point me) I do try to see this argument from both sides and I agree with what you are saying but I honestly think this could only bring good things to the server if done in a 'proper' manner.

Favorite or not, that is what the server is about, RP through-and-through; and anything that enhances RP can only do good things for the server, and the community.

It seems the people who do not like this idea are the ones who fear having players change their character race/class/name etc... All the time, which is a very good point - and I totally agree; however there are ways to make this work without having this issue in mind - some of the suggestions posted here would work.

chambordini wrote:I'm all for something like a once a month 100percent rcr per cdkey. Plus dm awarded tokens (which supposedly exist already or something)

NeOmega wrote: So what is fun? I have an idea, let's allow cheat codes.

I have a better idea; let's not make strawmen.

NeOmega wrote: That would be "fun" to some. Also, let's not have people die, after all, what fun is dying?

There's a lot of fun in dying, when it is a result of an awesome storyline.

NeOmega wrote:Don't make me bust out everybody's favorite, "HEy, this server is all about teh are-pee anyways!

And because of this you have no reason to care if someone doesn't have rcr hit.
It is suppossed to be about RP. Not about gaining xp slowly all the way from level 1.

NeOmega wrote: Perhaps, when you make a new character, they get 100% RCR token. 100%, any time. RCR XP would then only be transferrable between a character of the same name and race, and within 1 alignment shift.

That doesn't make any sense, and will only encourage fighter-becomes-wizard-becomes-sorcerer-becomes-cleric-becomes-warlock-becomes-rogue RCRs, while at the same time discouraging trying out new concepts.

Leveling something somewhere rquires time, the time cost on bgtscc is very high.

People shouldn't be punished for trying out new concepts, and muling/gold transfer is already allowed. So, the system really should be two-fold. Safety mechanism in case someone messes up, and RCR for people who want new concept.

NeOmega wrote: Perhaps, when you make a new character, they get 100% RCR token. 100%, any time. RCR XP would then only be transferrable between a character of the same name and race, and within 1 alignment shift.

That doesn't make any sense, and will only encourage fighter-becomes-wizard-becomes-sorcerer-becomes-cleric-becomes-warlock-becomes-rogue RCRs, while at the same time discouraging trying out new concepts.

How do you figure, since you only get one?

People shouldn't be punished for trying out new concepts, and muling/gold transfer is already allowed. So, the system really should be two-fold. Safety mechanism in case someone messes up, and RCR for people who want new concept.

You can always try new concepts with brand new characters. No RCR required at all.

Maecius wrote:Unlocked per request. Please keep the conversation civil.

It is getting very heated here, and this topic is most likely going to get locked - again. The DM team have already said that the 100% RCR feature will not be staying, so it is unlikely it will.

However I still believe some sort of system in place which allows players to fix any minor errors such as incorrect feats etc... etc... Would be a very good thing; if limited to x amount of times and does not allow race/class changes.

A DM has spoken briefly about 'tickets' which can give you full exp, which I would like to learn more about; a player can submit their RCR request and be given a ticket - this would work well.

On a sidenote, as Maecius said - this is a debait, not an argument; lets try and reframe from crossing the line.

I am in a constant tweaking of my class as my character develops and learns about the world, i find it too punishing if i cant change certain feats or skills, that arent performing well, without a penalty.

imo the returned xp should be given to a character with the same name so if he goes from orc to dwarf he would better have a hell of a story to tell or face a harsh punishment as is the case for the 3 lvls/per class by lvl 20 rule.

I think the rub comes to how we each see the system.

Is it designed to only be used to fix errors? Meaning, should it only be used to recreate the same character, with the same RP feel only?

Is it designed to be used more freely? This is how I see it, and always have. Some of us have played here for nearly a decade (with much time away) and have a lot less time than we did back when we were able to level characters to 30. I know personally I could never level even to epic levels now, let alone 30. The only way I will ever play an epic character here nowadays is if I play an older character or RCR an older character into something new, using new feats, spells, classes, etc.

Obviously, one shouldnt be allowed to take Bob-The-Fighter up through epic levels, and then one day on a whim change him to Bob-the-Mage with the same background, RP, relationships, etc. It makes no sense.

However, if I want to take Bob-The-Fighter, who leveled to 23rd level in 2009 and is sitting dusty on a shelf, and re-envision him as Robert-the-Cleric, newly arrived to the Gate from far way Cormyr, eager to explore these new lands.. what harm is that?

It is hard to debate the merits of a system that we all see "best used" in different ways.

NegInfinity wrote:It is suppossed to be about RP. Not about gaining xp slowly all the way from level 1.

Why not start every character at level 30 then? All these problems go away...

Thorsson wrote:

NegInfinity wrote:It is suppossed to be about RP. Not about gaining xp slowly all the way from level 1.

Why not start every character at level 30 then? All these problems go away...

Stop stealing my counter points Thor!!!

Plane Hopper wrote:...what harm is that?

I want to respond to this.

First, the issue gets falsely characterized when you ascribe it to "being harmed," or that to NOT have a 100% RCR is a type of penalty. This keeps happening by many in this thread, and it should stop.

The RCR is a GIFT! Any XP that a Player can get "recycled" for the many reasons stated—end of character life, end of Player interest, mistakes in building—is a bonus to participation in this game, and this community.

Second, it this is truly an RP Server, then by the nature of it and D&D, we should be RPing our PCs from whatever level they start from...preferably from lvl 1 up, and ENJOYING IT.

If one is not enjoying lvl 1, why? Explain why higher levels amounts to better RP, a better RP experience.

Any way anyone tried to argue it, the end result will be the same: a Server full of lvl 30 "newcomers," constantly.

Thorsson wrote:

NegInfinity wrote:It is suppossed to be about RP. Not about gaining xp slowly all the way from level 1.

Why not start every character at level 30 then? All these problems go away...

That doesn't make sense, because different concepts become enjoyable at different level. By itself level 30 offers pretty much nothing.

It is also worth keeping in mind, that even if you get level 30 character straightaway, it will take at least two weeks for the character to integrate into server, become known or make acquaintances.

Steve wrote: If one is not enjoying lvl 1, why? Explain why higher levels amounts to better RP, a better RP experience.

It was explained several thousand times during the past year alone, and some people simply refuse to listen. I would advise to reread xp-related threads for the past 5 years.

Steve wrote: Any way anyone tried to argue it, the end result will be the same: a Server full of lvl 30 "newcomers," constantly.

Nope.

We have 100% rcr situation right now, and the server is not full of level 30 newcomers. If someone rolls the concept and it works, the concept stays, otherwise it gets scrapped. It is simply because aside from level, you need to interact with people for a while for character to be worth anything. Level 30 is a nobody if it just arrived.

NegInfinity wrote:

Steve wrote: If one is not enjoying lvl 1, why? Explain why higher levels amounts to better RP, a better RP experience.

It was explained several thousand times during the past year alone, and some people simply refuse to listen. I would advise to reread xp-related threads for the past 5 years.

And there were several thousand asinine explanations that did little to give valid reason why any level of a Player Character is better than another.

NegInfinity wrote:

Steve wrote: Any way anyone tried to argue it, the end result will be the same: a Server full of lvl 30 "newcomers," constantly.

Nope.

We have 100% rcr situation right now, and the server is not full of level 30 newcomers. If someone rolls the concept and it works, the concept stays, otherwise it gets scrapped. It is simply because aside from level, you need to interact with people for a while for character to be worth anything. Level 30 is a nobody if it just arrived.

You are arguing for "right now," where this discussion is about the future, a future where 100% RCR is kept available to all. XP only accrues, it rarely or ever is deducted. Besides the small XP deduction from learning from your mistakes in the process of "dying" from mobs.

And you prove my point, again and again: a PC needs to interact with other PCs in order to be "worth anything." That can happen from lvl 1 onward.

But arguing that a Level 30 is a nobody...is not playing your Character Sheet. Experience is experience. Levels are achieved through experience. If you are creating a level 30 19-year-old greenie just off the farm...well, yeah, that pretty much craps on the whole aspect of learning, growing, gaining skills and abilities.

There are issues with 100% RCR.... Exploits, builds that break server rules, but would require a DM to take an in depth look at your PC's character sheet (and have the acumen and TIME needed to determine if skills/feats/whatever would be legal within the server rules).

Simply put, to have 100% RCR past level 20 (or any RCR that allows starting past 20) the 3b20 rule would have to be removed/modified to account for the ability to level up a PC and then RCR.

I won't get in to the many things that could be done here, but suffice it to say that 100% RCR requires either changing rules, or accepting they can easily be circumvented.

So basically, all the various opinions about if 100% RCR is good or bad for RP on the server, mechanically it may be simple, but within rules it requires a lot of re-work.

Finally the very simple issue as I see it is if someone wants to RP a mechanically weak build why not just go FS/Cleric (water domain of course!) level to 30 and RCR in to the uber idea of some weak, but interesting build...of course all stories having occurred with your FS are now gone and you have a level 30 odd ball that, while interesting to you has no history whatsoever... This is where the argument of 'then why not just start everyone at 30' comes from because folks will have some build that is a pita to level, but wrecks PvP or has a certain RP flavor and they will level an easy build then use free RCR to get the PC they actually wanted in the first place.

I won't get in to the many things that could be done here, but suffice it to say that 100% RCR requires either changing rules, or accepting they can easily be circumvented.

With that said what is so bad about changing the 3b20 rule to just 3b30? How many builds does that open up and how much does that change the power amongst the server for builds? I know of a few ranger builds that would benefit from this and Rangers are by no means OP. The Heirophant PRC might be able to be taken with other builds in mind but I think most of the ones that would be OP would be FvS builds and FvS is not a qualifier for Heirophant anyway currently. If that were the case of a 3b30 rule then the 100% RCR is less problematic so to speak. Also a 3b30 would allow players to choose to not take extra PRCs if they so choose until later and for some builds it is the extra classes that slow it's progression in earlier levels which makes it a bit of a pain to level up or even go to certain areas you should be able to go to.