The Bladesinger PRC

[Sun Wukong]

lol, seriously ? If you're good sport you'll see that going PM only meant +2 AC in the build I posted, one can just skip that part and still have more AC than the bladesinger build.

As the server is right now, today, can you present a scenario where this AC of 57 would be notably superior to the AC of 54? I ask this because once your character's AC runs past the mob's 'AB + 20', any additional increase on the AC is not going to produce any difference. The mob will only hit by rolling a 20. If you are a good sport, you will see that raising AC above certain point will net no benefit.

And based on the numbers I got from aeons ago, the AC of 52 used to be more than enough for clear majority of this server. Well apart from a boss or two, and that was without concealment and mirror images. Perhaps things have changed, perhaps that AC of 57 is now necessary today... But I kind of doubt that.

Thus the argument I make is not solely about the AC, it is about what else you can have alongside it - and based on the builds you presented - it is easy to argue that the Bladesinger actually has quite a lot.

And if you want a high AC arcanist without Pale Master, a Fighter 4/Wizard 16/Arcane Scholar 10 is a possibility. However, you do not have tumble as a class skill, nor Shield block and so your AC is 55 with a fighter bonus feat spent on ICE. A MaA 4/Wizard 16/Arcane Scholar 10 is also a possibility and it also reaches the AC of 55.

Thus basically, what you get AC-wise is a Bladesinger without the Bladesinger abilities. That Freezing Wind (Dragonrend) ability is going to be brilliant combined with any of the usual arcane AoE spells - you just need Energy Immunity (Cold) to stand in the middle of it. Not to mention that it is basically +1 or +2 AC for you - so you match or beat our non Pale Masters AC.

Thus, can you present an argument as to why a Bladesinger would become unplayable, if it had low will save progression and d6 hit point progression? What I suggest is truly a tiny slap on the wrist, and you still basically get to eat your cake as is.

Comparing PM with Bladesinger will always come short.

PM give AC, Paralysis, stun immunitoes bonus to Fort saves, crit immunitiy and the best summons in game. And all that with no feat requirements

Yet you are forced to be a non-good character.

Then your first level ability, bone skin has the description of cadaverous flesh granting natural armor bonus to your AC. If you want to see what cadeverous flesh looks like, type it in a search bar and check the images. Thus you can usually spot the Pale Masters that do role-play their character sheets because they see an effort to cover their character's body.

As for your immunities you listed, you can achieve those with a Stone Body spell.

As for the +4 bonus on fortitude saves. As an arcanist, you got +6 from Superior resistance, +4 from Greater Heroism, and +6 against spells from your 30 spellcraft. So... +16 or +20? Where is this difference going to be notable? (Especially with the immunities already available from other spells.)

As for the summons Pale Master posseses, those are undead, and simply having them around will force other characters to react.

Now, it is perfectly fine that a Pale Master shows off the cadeverous flesh of his, walk around with a buffed up undead guardian, and some might even relish playing such a provocative role... But what do you do when you run into the same lot of do-goodies every day of the week? Or just evil-doers that do not want to be associeated with undead?

So yes, a Pale Master is a PRC that does not require any feats. However, the surface is where all the players are, and also where this PRC will create more than its fair share of IC and, at times, OOC conflict.

Now, although Bladesinger does require some feats to qualify, what is the IC or OOC role-playing baggage of playing one? Possibly helping out a fellow elf when you encounter one?

I still dont see any reasoning. ... I dont see your reasoning.

I think I can see why. . . Sorry, couldn't resist. The reason is just kind of there...

But even if you cannot see my reasoning, could you at least present any argument why the suggested Bladesinger PRC would become unplayable if it came with a low will save progression and d6 hitpoints?

[mrm3ntalist]

lol, seriously ? If you're good sport you'll see that going PM only meant +2 AC in the build I posted, one can just skip that part and still have more AC than the bladesinger build.

As the server is right now, today, can you present a scenario where this AC of 57 would be notably superior to the AC of 54? I ask this because once your character's AC runs past the mob's 'AB + 20', any additional increase on the AC is not going to produce any difference. The mob will only hit by rolling a 20. If you are a good sport, you will see that raising AC above certain point will net no benefit.

And based on the numbers I got from aeons ago, the AC of 52 used to be more than enough for clear majority of this server. Well apart from a boss or two, and that was without concealment and mirror images. Perhaps things have changed, perhaps that AC of 57 is now necessary today... But I kind of doubt that.

Thus the argument I make is not solely about the AC, it is about what else you can have alongside it - and based on the builds you presented - it is easy to argue that the Bladesinger actually has quite a lot.

And if you want a high AC arcanist without Pale Master, a Fighter 4/Wizard 16/Arcane Scholar 10 is a possibility. However, you do not have tumble as a class skill, nor Shield block and so your AC is 55 with a fighter bonus feat spent on ICE. A MaA 4/Wizard 16/Arcane Scholar 10 is also a possibility and it also reaches the AC of 55.

Thus basically, what you get AC-wise is a Bladesinger without the Bladesinger abilities. That Freezing Wind (Dragonrend) ability is going to be brilliant combined with any of the usual arcane AoE spells - you just need Energy Immunity (Cold) to stand in the middle of it. Not to mention that it is basically +1 or +2 AC for you - so you match or beat our non Pale Masters AC.

Thus, can you present an argument as to why a Bladesinger would become unplayable, if it had low will save progression and d6 hit point progression? What I suggest is truly a tiny slap on the wrist, and you still basically get to eat your cake as is.

Maybe it wont be unplayable. Currently it is very playable and follows the PnP description as much as possible.
To do things differently - your suggestions basically - there should be a reason. You havent given any

Comparing PM with Bladesinger will always come short.

PM give AC, Paralysis, stun immunitoes bonus to Fort saves, crit immunitiy and the best summons in game. And all that with no feat requirements

Yet you are forced to be a non-good character.

Then your first level ability, bone skin has the description of cadaverous flesh granting natural armor bonus to your AC. If you want to see what cadeverous flesh looks like, type it in a search bar and check the images. Thus you can usually spot the Pale Masters that do role-play their character sheets because they see an effort to cover their character's body.

As for your immunities you listed, you can achieve those with a Stone Body spell.

As for the +4 bonus on fortitude saves. As an arcanist, you got +6 from Superior resistance, +4 from Greater Heroism, and +6 against spells from your 30 spellcraft. So... +16 or +20? Where is this difference going to be notable? (Especially with the immunities already available from other spells.)

As for the summons Pale Master posseses, those are undead, and simply having them around will force other characters to react.

Now, it is perfectly fine that a Pale Master shows off the cadeverous flesh of his, walk around with a buffed up undead guardian, and some might even relish playing such a provocative role... But what do you do when you run into the same lot of do-goodies every day of the week? Or just evil-doers that do not want to be associeated with undead?

So yes, a Pale Master is a PRC that does not require any feats. However, the surface is where all the players are, and also where this PRC will create more than its fair share of IC and, at times, OOC conflict.

Now, although Bladesinger does require some feats to qualify, what is the IC or OOC role-playing baggage of playing one? Possibly helping out a fellow elf when you encounter one?

Everything PM gets is crap. I wonder what makes PM so popular then.

I still dont see any reasoning. ... I dont see your reasoning.

I think I can see why. . . Sorry, couldn't resist. The reason is just kind of there...

But even if you cannot see my reasoning, could you at least present any argument why the suggested Bladesinger PRC would become unplayable if it came with a low will save progression and d6 hitpoints?

Maybe it wont be unplayable. Currently it is very playable and follows the PnP description as much as possible.
To do things differently - your suggestions basically - there should be a reason. You havent given any

In fact QC have stated in both threads they don't want to upgrade classes to match the FvS in power. If i created a drow PC (I apologise to my fellow drow who may be drooling at this PrC) with this build I could solo the Pit Fiend, no problem. Its high AC means I would probably only need one casting of Mirror Image.

How much AC can you get with bladesinger?

A power PrC suggested by elf players, QC'd by elf players and Dev'd by elf players, for elf players.

PM'd Global Admins / HDM as I need someone else to see to review this independently so they can tell me I'm wrong and it only 'appears' that way.

Aaaand that is when you know someone has run out of arguments. Making silly accusations like that. Devs, DMs, Admins, have access to the QC forums so they already know what is going on, like chad said.

I hope you let us know what the admins/DMs reply to your post, the same way you post baseless accusations and assumptions on the public forums.

[Sun Wukong]

The d8hp on a arcane PrC is also unprecedented, but I'll class that as only half and just say 2.5 times unrepresented actions built within this one PrC. Just for elves.

Wrong, Dragonslayer gets d10 HP.

If we are technical about it, a d10 PRC does not make a d8 PRC unpresented.

But if you look at the Dragonslayer PRC, it is also available for non spellcasters to which it offers Fear immunity and up to +10 magical damage against dragons. The few uses of Truestrike could be handy too, but I've never actually placed those on my dragonslayer's quick bar. The DR can be nice, if you do not already get it from some other source, and the energy resistance will not actually save you from a dragon's breath weapon so why mention it here?

For spell casters, for gish, would anyone have a reason to go beyond the 7th level? It is when you get your Greater Spell Penetration... which as a Gish you are not that likely to need... But lets you reach caster level of 30 when multiclassing with the Eldritch Knight PRC.

So if you want to compare Dragonslayer and Bladesinger, the Bladesinger gets abilities that are far more usable and neat. Can you imagine throwing out an Empowered Polar Ray with your attack flurry? You know, I would be more than happy to settle down for a mere +3 naked AC from having only seven levels of Bladesinger. I could make use of the elven racial bonus to dexterity to compensate, and use Combat Insight and Deadly Defense as a source of damage.

Wizard 6/Arcane Scholar 7/Eldritch Knight 10/Bladesinger 7 is more than fine.

(And since I do not need strength modifier to carry a full plate and a tower shield, etc, I could make do with a strength score of 8, hence freeing more ability points to dexterity and intelligence.)

Maybe it wont be unplayable. Currently it is very playable and follows the PnP description as much as possible. To do things differently - your suggestions basically - there should be a reason. You havent given any

As for following PnP description, if you glance over and look at the custom changes and additions done on the server, you fill find that several changes have been madee in the name of server balance. So why exactly is this Bladesinger class suddenly treated so differently when it comes to server balance? Can you give a reason why you are implementing a PRC that for all intents and purposes is a far superior variant of the Dragonslayer PRC?

So to say it as clearly as possible. Why are you implementing a PRC that clearly over shadows a pre-existing PRC. A PRC that according to the QC is so strong that in the past the QC has flatly refused all requests to have its caster level increased. Even upping the damage against dragons required a colossal amount of arm-wrestling.

And you said it yourself, currently the Bladesinger is *very* playable. So what is the excuse to suddenly overlook server balance?

[Valefort]

Freezing field / Dragonrend can be tweaked easily if that's considered too powerful however it lasts only 10 rounds and ... web, a lvl 2 spell, is almost as good Freezing field effect wise, in my eyes it's mainly a fluff ability. Also freezing field is fort save instead of reflex, which as far as I know is less interesting since monsters usually have high fort save.

Regarding AC I thought the point you were making was that if you wanted to make a high AC arcane blaster you had to go pale master, which is wrong and we're apparently on the same page there.

The problem with the suggested slap on the wrist you propose and the argument I make is that it goes against the spirit of the class, which is to make a gish and not a tanky blaster (at least the hp part, the will saves part is entirely negligible as far as I'm concerned). I readily admit I didn't think much about using the class in that way, if anything I would like to make that path (tanky blaster bladesinger) less appealing than it is.

One possible way could be to tie the INT to AC bonus to BAB perhaps, like 26 BAB => up to 5 AC bonus, 24-25 BAB up to 4, 21-23, up to 3.

@ BigJ

The BAB matters little if your AB remains low and the builds presented have low AB, being able to miss the broad side of a barn two-handed will do little for the tanky bladesinger blaster, the high damage output you speak about is in fact non-existent.

Those builds were quite rushed because I felt I didn't need a polished build to counter your theory about highest AC blasters now becoming bladesingers, which is indeed wrong since now you're talking about melee and BAB.

An arcane gish has 3 spells to raise his AB long term : bull's strength (or cat's grace), greater heroism, greater magic weapon, which amounts to +11 AB. 40 AB for melee (PA activated) is the minimum you need to be useful (unless you have expose weakness at least).

40-11 = 29 AB points to find between BAB, feats and base ability score, try and you'll see the possibilities are not infinite if you also want a high CL.

In fact QC have stated in both threads they don't want to upgrade classes to match the FvS in power. If i created a drow PC (I apologise to my fellow drow who may be drooling at this PrC) with this build I could solo the Pit Fiend, no problem. Its high AC means I would probably only need one casting of Mirror Image.

I'm not familiar with the Pit Fiend but I doubt you can hope to kill it in melee with a tanky blaster bladesinger unless it has 30 AC.

As for the conspiracy theory I'll go get my tinfoil hat and inform you that some people, who don't play elves, think the class is weak as is.

[mrm3ntalist]

As for following PnP description, if you glance over and look at the custom changes and additions done on the server, you fill find that several changes have been madee in the name of server balance. So why exactly is this Bladesinger class suddenly treated so differently when it comes to server balance? Can you give a reason why you are implementing a PRC that for all intents and purposes is a far superior variant of the Dragonslayer PRC?

So to say it as clearly as possible. Why are you implementing a PRC that clearly over shadows a pre-existing PRC. A PRC that according to the QC is so strong that in the past the QC has flatly refused all requests to have its caster level increased. Even upping the damage against dragons required a colossal amount of arm-wrestling.

And you said it yourself, currently the Bladesinger is *very* playable. So what is the excuse to suddenly overlook server balance?

Many changes are not following PnP. It is not possible to have everything like pnp. However, we try as much as possible to follow pnp descriptions and create balanced content. The Bladesinger is the epitome of that. Like i said before, in order to do the changes you propose and go away from pnp, there has to be a reason. Still waiting to see that. Still waiting for a Bladesinger build that will break the server.

Our difference is that you think Bladesinger will cause an issue. It wont. Personally, if i was to make an Arcane gish, i would still go for dragonslayer. It is still more powerful, according to me at least. The only reason to go for bladesinger is for the RP mostly.

By the way, what are the numbers a bladesinger will get, that according to you will cause issues? You got a build we can see?

[Asmodea]

As a quick general note I love the idea of tilting it more towards Melee Gishing while not making it too good an option for Armored Casters. Which is a finicky balance I think the class manages.

Just a random thought but maybe some ability that has a short or moderate cooldown but boosts AB for a short time? I'm thinking like Deflection spell but offensive. That would encourage swapping between meleeing things while that ability is active and buffing or spell slinging while it is cooling down. Thereby making melee more encouraged without blowing the class passed DS builds or anything.

I could see some fun running PA while you have your temp buff then swapping to CE or Defensive casting to spell sling for a bit then back again. I wouldn't make it mandatory for the class to be effective or anything but the short term AB boost might make it more competitive or at least fun on the AB side without also making it feel overpowered or a required PRC.

Side note: Balancing this kind of stuff is a nightmare people are actually paid good money to do in the gaming industry! Try to remember everyone is hoping for the same thing (An appealing interesting class that doesn't invalidate other build options) and people are just trying to hammer out details.

[chad878262]

Just a random thought but maybe some ability that has a short or moderate cooldown but boosts AB for a short time? I'm thinking like Deflection spell but offensive. That would encourage swapping between meleeing things while that ability is active and buffing or spell slinging while it is cooling down. Thereby making melee more encouraged without blowing the class passed DS builds or anything.

A "standard" W10/EK10/BS10 will have 25 BAB (29CL), +11 from buffs mentioned earlier brings that to 36. Thus if they have an 18 base statistic in either STR (longsword) or DEX (rapier) they will hit BAB 40. I don't really think they need an ability to increase AB. I haven't tested the class on the server yet so I won't comment how it performs in game, but I will say that I tend to agree with M3ntalist that it will be fine, but a DragonSlayer is going to be generally better. The bladesinger will likely have higher INT for more spells (folks seem to ignore the fact that a minimum of 26 INT + Fox Cunning to reach 30 is required in order to reach that +5 AC) meaning it is going to have lower STR than DS and thus lower damage. It gains spell slots, some neat abilities/unique RP and nova damage, but the DS is better for long term play from a perspective of buff&bash since it doesn't use spells for one hit damage/effect and instead focuses on long and short term buffs.

[Asmodea]

A "standard" W10/EK10/BS10 will have 25 BAB (29CL), +11 from buffs mentioned earlier brings that to 36. Thus if they have an 18 base statistic in either STR (longsword) or DEX (rapier) they will hit BAB 40. I don't really think they need an ability to increase AB. I haven't tested the class on the server yet so I won't comment how it performs in game, but I will say that I tend to agree with M3ntalist that it will be fine, but a DragonSlayer is going to be generally better. The bladesinger will likely have higher INT for more spells (folks seem to ignore the fact that a minimum of 26 INT + Fox Cunning to reach 30 is required in order to reach that +5 AC) meaning it is going to have lower STR than DS and thus lower damage. It gains spell slots, some neat abilities/unique RP and nova damage, but the DS is better for long term play from a perspective of buff&bash since it doesn't use spells for one hit damage/effect and instead focuses on long and short term buffs.

I do like the freezing field and the spike damage from the spell imbuing. The high int requirement is actually what makes me constantly wonder about Armored Caster versus Gish for it though as if you are going to stack Int anyway pushing it that extra little bit and just going even Armored DC Caster seems like a natural choice while its melee whackyness seems to be entirely the same as a DS or an EK.

I should say this is the -uneducated- opinion in a way. Like I am not a master builder. I do not think I should have much say in the final end numbers of whatever pops out because I have no idea how NWN is really balanced. But as a generally not expert in NWN 2 when I look at the class it seems to add little to the melee side and is mostly running to keep up with the AC of Auto-Stillers which these days are almost universally Armored Casters.

I suppose I am afraid it will be taken for the AC bump and the high BAB will be mostly ignored as useful or viable in anyway, even if it is.

[BigJ]

Wrong, DragonSlayer gets d10 HP.

Its also a divine PrC, not just arcane.

Dodge is required for DragonSlayer, I didn't even look at Valefort's build, but if it doesn't have Dodge it wouldn't be a legal build. Also, possible XP penalty? Wrong again, AS, PM, and DS are all PRC's. Where do you get XP penalty from?

Perhaps you should re-read Valeforts Post. The AC number he (57) provided was for MaA 3 / PM 3 / ASOC 9 / wiz 15.

Valeforts BS gets 54, but he didnt add the dodge ac feat nor factor taking ICE with that free feat.

They can cast in a MBP/Mithral Chainmail, a DragonSlayer/EK build can cast in MFP and a Tower Shield

Valefort factored in MFP + Tower in his 57 ac calculation. It was two ac better than his BS build, without ICE.

But lets compare the other -

Wiz 7 / PM 10 / Asoc 10 / DS 3 - Is feat starved, but higher ac than 57 per valeforts comment. Very poor bab.
Wiz 6 / EK 4 / Asoc 10 / BS 10 - Not feat starved, can Melee well according to QC's OWN comments in this and other threads (22 bab, 5 attacks), and still blast as well (better, with those extra epic feats).

No need to drop STR, just drop INT, like I said, since he used 20 INT as a base which is not needed. You would start with 16 Str + Bulls = 20. In fact just use a longsword, 2h, rather than a rapier. AND still hit 26 INT, or 24 will do if you dont mind losing 1 ac. Dealers choice. 57 instead of 58 ac.

Those builds were quite rushed because I felt I didn't need a polished build to counter your theory about highest AC blasters now becoming bladesingers, which is indeed wrong since now you're talking about melee and BAB.

I am talking about Melee AND Bab AND Blasting AND defence, all in one. Refer to EK thread about what was are acceptable for EK builds, re bab / ab, per QC.

Wiz or Sorc 6 / EK 4 / Asoc 10 / BS 10 - It can blast it can melee it can defend it can summon. Refer to any ASoC player about the blasting power (Quickened, empowered, maxed), I've never played one.

As for FvS, some of those players told me you need AC in the mid fifties to solo the Pit Fiend. If you cannot see how close in power it is, then I cannot make it clearer for you. Perhaps others can. You also do not need to melee the fiend, you just melee and/or summon to reach him, then blast him.

Guys, you are rushing your posts and skipping over things. Maybe I hit something and I'm sorry if I did, but take your time, don't rush. If you like I'll leave the server, I like Bgtscc and everything it has but its just a game, I also just think a mistake has been made.

Happy to be corrected though when an admin has reviewed both threads. Also happy to be told its not a power PrC, by them.

BigJ

[chad878262]

do like the freezing field and the spike damage from the spell imbuing. The high int requirement is actually what makes me constantly wonder about Armored Caster versus Gish for it though as if you are going to stack Int anyway pushing it that extra little bit and just going even Armored DC Caster seems like a natural choice while its melee whackyness seems to be entirely the same as a DS or an EK.

The DC's are going to still be quite a bit lower than a true DC caster due to fairly heavy feat requirements for qualification. My high end guess for a BS is they would hit around 24 + Spell level DC by sacrificing melee AB/Damage that they could gain through feat investment. More 'standard' DC for a BS would be around ~21+Spell Level for DC. 30-33 DC is hardly a DC caster, though it is better than the DC's DS hits. Utility is nice, but it is generally less powerful then builds that are more focused. A DC caster really has to focus on hitting (or at the very least getting very close) to 40+ DC's for 9th level and epic spells. If you want a DC caster BS is counter intuitive to that. DC casters do not want to waste epic or pre-epic feats to be an armored caster, it' simply not worth the price in lowered DC's.

For the rest of your post, regardless of skill level you are welcome to give your thoughts and opinions just like anyone else. I'm happy to explain any misconceptions or, if something truly OP is found/posted with direct evidence showing why it is OP I am happy to take recommendations back to QC discussion. I just haven't seen anything so far that warrants such a reaction.

@ BigJ, so DS also being a divine build somehow makes the HP more appropriate? It still CAN be an Arcane PRC, yes? Not really seeing your point. I find it amusing that something you requested (auto-still access earlier in epics) get's in really fast, which is generally unheard of in most cases then you use it in an argument that there is some sort of nefarious agenda in putting it in...even though Auto-still is in no way synergized with BladeSinger.

[Valefort]

You can't take ICE on the bonus feat BigJ and at least in the build I posted you can't juggle feats around to get it. The pick I had in mind was extend spell there.

[mrm3ntalist]

Guys, you are rushing your posts and skipping over things. Maybe I hit something and I'm sorry if I did, but take your time, don't rush. If you like I'll leave the server, I like Bgtscc and everything it has but its just a game, I also just think a mistake has been made.

Happy to be corrected though when an admin has reviewed both threads. Also happy to be told its not a power PrC, by them.

BigJ

The only thing you hit is conspiracy theories ("A power PrC suggested by elf players, QC'd by elf players and Dev'd by elf players, for elf players"), misinformation ( "Wiz or Sorc 6 / EK 4 / Asoc 10 / BS 10 - It can blast it can melee it can defend it can summon. Refer to any ASoC player about the blasting power (Quickened, empowered, maxed), I've never played one " ) and now threatening to quit the server like that would change anything... Epic!

Wiz or Sorc 6 / EK 4 / Asoc 10 / BS 10 - Is this an example of how BS is unbalanced? The fact that you said you never played such a build, yet you use it to prove some kind of a point is a clear display of your ignorance of mechanics. In this case, this build can go straight to the crapper ( as a gish ) because ASoC is not a melee class. It adds nothing to gishes and you will understand why in the next example:
The way BG is set up (High HP/ low AC mobs ) how many damaging spells ( with low saves for half damage ) you are going to have to use in order to kill mobs? It will take you 3 damaging spells ( orbs, flame arrows, magic missiles etc ) to kill a single giant in the Frost Keep. Just like that you are out of spells and then log in the forums and ask to buff mages.

At the same time, you can bash them with your sword for more damage per round. Mechanically speaking, a gish idealy should have 0 damaging spells except from avasculate. The rest of the spells should all be buffing and debuffing spells ( rays, curses enervation, cloudkill depending the build etc ). The above fact makes ASoC useless for gishes. Instead of going for 10 levels of ASoC get Sorc to 10 and the rest on EK for +3BAB ( which does not count towards the +20AB cap ) and save a feat for anything you like - preferably AC or AB.

Now how about the Bladesinger? Mechanically it is similar to the Dragonslayer. Both can reach the same BAB, similar amount of AC and same damage. The difference is that Bladesinger has a slight edge in AC when going two handed and can skip the still metamagic when in light armor. However, it wont be able to use spells such as Iron Body and maybe tensers if the proposed changes take place, while a Dragonslayer with autostill will be able to. In reality, even Bladesinger will have to take the still metamagic and if any changes happen to the Tenser's spell, Bladesingers will choose to pick autostill as well.

Really is this ( Wiz or Sorc 6 / EK 4 / Asoc 10 / BS 10) you concern for the server balance? This can only be described as an not optimal build, rather than something we should concern ourselves with.

[Valefort]

@bigj
I think you are misinterpretating posts about the AB needed for a gish in that other topic you speak about, 22 BAB 5 attacks is ok ... only as long as you're pumping STR or DEX to raise your AB to acceptable levels. Otherwise your AB is simply too low.

Wiz or Sorc 6 / EK 4 / Asoc 10 / BS 10 can blast and summon but cannot melee in an effective fashion at all, AB is too low.

FvS have no problem having 50+ AB BigJ, Bladesinger is far far far away from this, close in power ? The gap is huge (and is why some people complain about the lack of power of this class). I'm positive you can't kill the pit fiend with melee attacks if you have some measly 35 AB.

Summons won't last against the pit fiend, nor will they be able to damage it noticeably. Blasting will work to an extent but bosses have loads of HP, maybe you can kill the pit fiends that way, I lack knowledge there. On the other hand I advise against trying to kill the balor with damage spells, you'll likely run out before killing it.

I feel you're misreading and not putting things in perspective correctly, my explanations must be too unclear somehow, this class is not a topdog like FS however you build with it.

[DM Hera]

Question


Considering the lore of blade singers, mixing sword and magic. They dance about with one hand casting spell and the other swinging sword.

Most of this requires a free hand.

Can we just not bar the class from using shields.

This address the AC a bit. Fits the lore. Curbs perhaps some people's perception of power.

Most of all it is very lore fiting to a slight mechanical fix.

After all they don't need shields. Unless we are encouraging people to swap equipment mid casting anyways.

[mrm3ntalist]

Question


Considering the lore of blade singers, mixing sword and magic. They dance about with one hand casting spell and the other swinging sword.

Most of this requires a free hand.

Can we just not bar the class from using shields.

This address the AC a bit. Fits the lore. Curbs perhaps some people's perception of power.

Most of all it is very lore fiting to a slight mechanical fix.

After all they don't need shields. Unless we are encouraging people to swap equipment mid casting anyways.

Using a shield will get them ASF and lose the INT bonus to AC. It has already been taken care of.