Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Rhifox wrote: Or they just don't want to waste their limited funds on consumables. It doesn't matter how much easier things might be with consumables, when you're poor the last thing you want to do is put money into something that doesn't last longer than a few minutes and that you don't strictly need.

No you do not need it indeed, but when you use potions you stay up longer.
When you can grind longer and rest less you obviously make more gold and xp.
So simply compare the extra amount of gold you make versus not spending any at all. Then you can see what the most profitable option is.

In my opinion when it comes to grinding.
You have to spend gold to make gold.

You know, Rhifox made me think of something else (as always seems to happen!)

The server is balanced around the use of consumables, but players who are used to being able to complete the OC with any class never drinking a single potion (or otherwise are used to similar types of difficulty level) may never think to actually PAY for consumables. However, on this server, especially as a new player it will VASTLY increase survivability and, as Juramenta points out actually increases how much money you make when you chose to adventure. It'd be a good idea to have some sort of notification for new players that consumables will help ensure their survival when in dangerous areas at their CR.

dedude wrote:

A Hippo wrote:3. Professions

As much as I loathe Haven as a place where cruel, unusual and tempting things happen, I greatly admire their profession system. Let me tell you a thing about Haven... it has MINING. And crafting. And fishing (don't, DON'T mention fishing that exist here... it is ridiculous). And many other things that you can do, that actually reward you in a sense of now just XP, but also being a part of a community that can form a viable economical bond. Miners specialize in mining, they get ore and gems for smiths and gem-cutters who then create items that may be enchanted by enchanters... and beyond all that, there are farmers and fishers who provide food and material for alchemists to create potions... it's a SYSTEM. One that slowly, but surely, gets both your crafting xp up and your actual xp up. So, in such a setting you don't have to be just another ale-drinking, axe-wielding bearded little man - you can be a master miner or a master smith, thus giving your character another dimension.

This. So much this. My old nwn1 server also had this, probably even more extensive than Haven. It was such a big part of the RP on the server. Crafting + resource gathering (mining, skinning, gem picking, foresting, etc) opens up for so much emergent gameplay. But it's a huge undertaking to implement it from scratch.

Just wanted to bump this part, and say how much I would absolutely love it. If we have someone that could do this, I would give real money and infinite fake internet cool points in appreciation.

I would love to see a profession system -- but I doubt it will be easy to code into the server (unless we borrow heavens scripts with their permission)

chad878262 wrote:You know, Rhifox made me think of something else (as always seems to happen!)

The server is balanced around the use of consumables, but players who are used to being able to complete the OC with any class never drinking a single potion (or otherwise are used to similar types of difficulty level) may never think to actually PAY for consumables. However, on this server, especially as a new player it will VASTLY increase survivability and, as Juramenta points out actually increases how much money you make when you chose to adventure. It'd be a good idea to have some sort of notification for new players that consumables will help ensure their survival when in dangerous areas at their CR.

While they really help, I used barkskin, bulls and bless on my level 1 character and still got stomped in the bandit cave that is supposedly CR1 because these guys can crit you for at least 15 damage. That area should either not be CR1 or have the damage on the opponents reduced in my opinion... But yes that hint would be good and should be very clearly visible. I surely never used much potions in any RPG simply because it wasn't necessary .

Planehopper wrote:

dedude wrote:

A Hippo wrote:3. Professions

As much as I loathe Haven as a place where cruel, unusual and tempting things happen, I greatly admire their profession system. Let me tell you a thing about Haven... it has MINING. And crafting. And fishing (don't, DON'T mention fishing that exist here... it is ridiculous). And many other things that you can do, that actually reward you in a sense of now just XP, but also being a part of a community that can form a viable economical bond. Miners specialize in mining, they get ore and gems for smiths and gem-cutters who then create items that may be enchanted by enchanters... and beyond all that, there are farmers and fishers who provide food and material for alchemists to create potions... it's a SYSTEM. One that slowly, but surely, gets both your crafting xp up and your actual xp up. So, in such a setting you don't have to be just another ale-drinking, axe-wielding bearded little man - you can be a master miner or a master smith, thus giving your character another dimension.

This. So much this. My old nwn1 server also had this, probably even more extensive than Haven. It was such a big part of the RP on the server. Crafting + resource gathering (mining, skinning, gem picking, foresting, etc) opens up for so much emergent gameplay. But it's a huge undertaking to implement it from scratch.

Just wanted to bump this part, and say how much I would absolutely love it. If we have someone that could do this, I would give real money and infinite fake internet cool points in appreciation.

What would be even cooler is if, in these systems, one gained something other than general XP, something particular and related to the skill used and developed. Thus, a Bard doesn't gain Hymn of Requiem by catching the Big Fish of the Day.

And then, whatever skill is developed through a profession, actually has another use (but again, not how to better cast Level 9 Gate spells...you get my drift).

I know how to use a hammer with immense skill, but learning that and applying that for years, did not give me any insight into writing. Just as an example. So as an idea, professions are great...as long as the gain is related to the activity of the skill, and not some general pool of Experience.

K'yon Oblodra wrote:

chad878262 wrote:You know, Rhifox made me think of something else (as always seems to happen!)

The server is balanced around the use of consumables, but players who are used to being able to complete the OC with any class never drinking a single potion (or otherwise are used to similar types of difficulty level) may never think to actually PAY for consumables. However, on this server, especially as a new player it will VASTLY increase survivability and, as Juramenta points out actually increases how much money you make when you chose to adventure. It'd be a good idea to have some sort of notification for new players that consumables will help ensure their survival when in dangerous areas at their CR.

While they really help, I used barkskin, bulls and bless on my level 1 character and still got stomped in the bandit cave that is supposedly CR1 because these guys can crit you for at least 15 damage. That area should either not be CR1 or have the damage on the opponents reduced in my opinion... But yes that hint would be good and should be very clearly visible. I surely never used much potions in any RPG simply because it wasn't necessary .

Really? I never got hit for that much in there... Mage armor+bark skin skills generally make you perfectly safe, but if you're having issues is just do the quests you get to level 2.

K'yon Oblodra wrote:While they really help, I used barkskin, bulls and bless on my level 1 character and still got stomped in the bandit cave that is supposedly CR1 because these guys can crit you for at least 15 damage. That area should either not be CR1 or have the damage on the opponents reduced in my opinion... But yes that hint would be good and should be very clearly visible. I surely never used much potions in any RPG simply because it wasn't necessary .

It's a problem that's endemic to low-level D&D in general, where combat becomes luck-based due to the low HP and high damage that you and the enemies have, so you can school someone with good rolls as much as they can school you with their own lucky rolls. Using ranged weapons, stacking AC, HP, and AB, and getting the first hit in when you can helps you survive, though sometimes the dice don't go your way anyways.

For leveling from scratch, without twink gear, buy a Backpack of the Hearty because it's cheap and an extra 4 HP is pretty big at level 1. Also buy a ranged weapon and ammo--I recommend a sling and some bullets since they're dirt cheap, any class can wield them, and it gives a ranged option in case you're fighting ranged enemies, and you really don't want to be in the position where you have to charge down a firing line. Having a ranged weapon also lets you soften enemies up before engaging in melee.

Buy a shield if you're fighting in melee and have the proficiency--I recommend heavy since the -2 AB from Tower Shield may not be worthwhile at low levels. You can also buy armour, but it's arguable if the upgrade is worth the expense. Personally, I only buy armour from the auction house if I have already amassed some coin but haven't found a good upgrade from the starting suit.

After getting those, then look at consumables. Mage Armor and Barkskin are good to start with. I'm really not good at advising which consumables, but what worked for me was looking for long-lasting buffs and use/(charge/day) items that I don't need to buy. (The ioun stone belt item that casts Vigor 3/day is amazing.)

Also, do as many quests in BG as you can (the ones that don't require you to leave the city). It should give an ECL 0 character enough EXP to go to level 2, which means an extra HP buffer. I don't know if this is also the case with characters with higher ECL.

Steve wrote: What would be even cooler is if, in these systems, one gained something other than general XP, something particular and related to the skill used and developed. Thus, a Bard doesn't gain Hymn of Requiem by catching the Big Fish of the Day.

And then, whatever skill is developed through a profession, actually has another use (but again, not how to better cast Level 9 Gate spells...you get my drift).

I know how to use a hammer with immense skill, but learning that and applying that for years, did not give me any insight into writing. Just as an example. So as an idea, professions are great...as long as the gain is related to the activity of the skill, and not some general pool of Experience.

I dont know Haven's system, but it sounds similar to the one we used on The Rise of Sauron server. It is as you describe here. There is "crafting xp" that increases your skill in a particular profession separate from regular XP (though there they gave you a wee bit of regular XP alongside the crafting XP as well).

For example, one could be an excellent cook, but that wouldn't make them any good at smithing, or smelting, or gem cutting, or woodworking. Likewise one could make high-end healing kits but know nothing of how to cast a healing spell.

For as long as we have been sitting on maybes and ideas, I would love to explore the possibility of obtaining Haven's code and tweaking it for our use. If possible.

Grimcheese wrote:

K'yon Oblodra wrote:While they really help, I used barkskin, bulls and bless on my level 1 character and still got stomped in the bandit cave that is supposedly CR1 because these guys can crit you for at least 15 damage. That area should either not be CR1 or have the damage on the opponents reduced in my opinion... But yes that hint would be good and should be very clearly visible. I surely never used much potions in any RPG simply because it wasn't necessary .

It's a problem that's endemic to low-level D&D in general, where combat becomes luck-based due to the low HP and high damage that you and the enemies have, so you can school someone with good rolls as much as they can school you with their own lucky rolls. Using ranged weapons, stacking AC, HP, and AB, and getting the first hit in when you can helps you survive, though sometimes the dice don't go your way anyways.

For leveling from scratch, without twink gear, buy a Backpack of the Hearty because it's cheap and an extra 4 HP is pretty big at level 1. Also buy a ranged weapon and ammo--I recommend a sling and some bullets since they're dirt cheap, any class can wield them, and it gives a ranged option in case you're fighting ranged enemies, and you really don't want to be in the position where you have to charge down a firing line. Having a ranged weapon also lets you soften enemies up before engaging in melee.

Buy a shield if you're fighting in melee and have the proficiency--I recommend heavy since the -2 AB from Tower Shield may not be worthwhile at low levels. You can also buy armour, but it's arguable if the upgrade is worth the expense. Personally, I only buy armour from the auction house if I have already amassed some coin but haven't found a good upgrade from the starting suit.

After getting those, then look at consumables. Mage Armor and Barkskin are good to start with. I'm really not good at advising which consumables, but what worked for me was looking for long-lasting buffs and use/(charge/day) items that I don't need to buy. (The ioun stone belt item that casts Vigor 3/day is amazing.)

Also, do as many quests in BG as you can (the ones that don't require you to leave the city). It should give an ECL 0 character enough EXP to go to level 2, which means an extra HP buffer. I don't know if this is also the case with characters with higher ECL.

Well cheese and Chad, I had a backpack of the hearthy, consumables, a normal chain shirt to maximize my AC+Dexterity bonus and my AC was 21, then I got taunted and since fighting 3 guys which kind of just appeared to be very close to each other, one of them flanked me and got a sneak attack double natural 20 crit. (I did have a heavy crossbow as well btw and now even bought one with +1 and two daggers with +1 for melee)

Now you can go without getting hit for a while usually if you're opponents can only hit you on a crit but the taunt can lower that AC and in my case I just once more had the retarded luck of death which cheesy already mentioned.

I just switched to the wolf and bandit area which is a bit safer although the spiders there are very annoying with their poison (which can luckily be removed by sleeping in the safe zones). The damage on those seems to also be lower probably mainly cause there is no sneak attack die to it.

In general grouping enemies are very dangerous in low levels cause of their attacks come shortly after another you have no chance to react with a heal pot then. Also the sheer amount of attacks leads to getting hit more often by chance.

That's why I like the regions where opponents only hit for 1-2 damage max so even if they crit they can't one shot you.

One a side note I like the idea for getting a craft system going .

Going to add my thoughts as a (relatively) new player. I've been on the server for coming up on six months. Many of you have interacted with my toon. It's Reineke Ingenium. I read all the posts in this thread up to page 7, then kind of started skimming. So some of my thoughts may have already been said.

My experience with RP servers, and PWs in general was basically nothing when I joined. I was intimately familiar with DnD 3.5, and NWN2; so I had experience with PnP RP and the mechanics of the computer game.

I made a wizard to start out, knowing that wizards are extremely underwhelming in low levels. I walked around, looking for quests, and found the couple to do in BG. I did them, then went into Maltz's looking for gear and obviously unable to get any. I walked up to a group of people next to the bard in BG, and asked if they knew of where to get gear. They told me about the basic weapon merchant, so off I went and got myself a staff.

Along the way, I met with a wizard ((who's name I forget, and I haven't seen him online in a long time)) who offered to go into the Graveyard with me. I accepted, and we grinded my wizard to level three. I spent the next few days doing the graveyard or finding groups to go into the hilltop ruins.

Around level seven, I met up with someone who claimed they were attempting to become an Acolyte at Candlekeep. I knew about Candlekeep from lore, and immediately came to the forums here to ask if Candlekeep was still an active guild. TarnishedSoul ((Alexandra Keenan)) responded within a day that it was, and my toon made his way there.

I did the usual "joining of Candlekeep" process, and joined as an acolyte. I was about level 8 or 9 by then. I was almost immediately thrust into a DM event ((The Candlekeep Chronomancy Line)) and went with Candlekeep on my first DM event before even reaching level ten.

My toon is only level 21 right now. Those who know Reineke know that he is rarely seen outside Candlekeep or the FAI. I occasionally do a small quest run, just those south of FAI generally. About four or five times per week ((though more often these last few days)) I run a loot run through the gnoll caves and the minotaur caves.

The reason I point all this out, is that my toon is only level 21. Yet he's the second ranked scholar in Candlekeep, and often people seek him out for help and/or research. He attends to several DM mini-events per week. He even leads characters that are higher level than he is. So, level 30 is -not- where all the fun begins.

As to keeping new players, there have been some good suggestions. One of the recent changes to the RP XP formula I applaud. I think this will help. It will allow the new toons to level exclusively through RP if they wish, without lagging very far behind those who would rather grind.

As to pointing out the CR of areas, I am adamantly opposed to this. One of the things about an RP server is not knowing what you're getting yourself into. My toon has gotten himself in over his head a few times, and paid the price. This caused me to be a more cautious player, and that's realistic.

I think one of the best ideas I've read is the auto status. As a variation of that idea, I think the status for any toon of level five or below should be auto set to "new player". If the player isn't a new player, then they already know how to change it before they even leave the nexus.

Fortunately for me, I found an active and growing guild to become a part of. Finding those groups is, I think, key to retention. There have been a few ideas of how to point the new players towards guilds. I'll leave it up to others to discuss the best way to do so, but I have to say that it is definitely key.

Concerning the players running past you while RPing, this hasn't happened to me while RPing, so maybe I've been lucky. I don't know. I don't have a big enough sample size to make a call. But it has happened to me while looting. Recently, actually was the first time it's happened to me. I was looting the gnoll caves, fighting the mini boss in the first room, when someone ran past me without saying a word. They immediately ran to the first loot point ((skeleton in the cells)) before going back and looting chests. An obvious and blatant attempt to get there before I did. They then ran past me once again, and I /t "No RP?". They ignored me until they were forced to interact with my character after they had killed the boss on the second level that drops a key. They ran to the second loot point and got it before interacting with me, however. Once they did interact with me, we partied up with minimal RP, and then they looted the last loot point immediately upon us killing the troll.

In fact, this toon ran past me shortly before I wrote this post. I am currently sitting outside the CK gate, and they ran past without a word at full speed, went inside, sold and ran back out with not so much as a nod.

So, it does happen, and we do have some jerks on the server. I'm going to try not to let it ruin my immersion, though, and simply pretend that toon didn't exist in game. It's not harming my RP, though I could see how it could with a low level group who's RPing through the hilltop ruins when a high level runs through there. For those people, I'd advise that you stop and let them get far ahead, and RP with your group. I mean, after all, that's what you're there for.

I always try to make the new players feel as welcome as possible to the server when I found any and try to help settle into a guild / find a place.

As Sappy Woody pointed out without a purpose the players will normally leave, though we do get 'MMOers' as I like to call them (had one last night) who just want to level and avoid RP, those players normally fizzle out in a few months at most.

As new players don't visit the forums right away, it would be nice to have an upto date place in game where players can go and apply for guilds, this area can server as a hub (like a messaging service) where players can apply to guilds and the guild leader(s) get notified in game when they do.

Alternatly I like the 'Are you a new player?' option which adds a scry message -- it is simple, clear and makes it easy to identify who is who.

Hello, all --

Very new player here (new as of this week) and if you don't mind, I'd like to add my observations so far.

I mean no offence to anyone when I say that I understand why new people quit. I've logged on a few times this week to the largest server I've ever been on, and the BG areas have had only two or three runners in that whole time, with no conversation (outside of a snippet of one conversation that was definitely not meant for me, so I stayed out of it). Mostly, BG just seems to be empty. I use the scry tool (which is a great feature), and everyone seems to be in an Elven area (?) (The Trade Way, my mistake) -- forgive me, I'm still learning the geography -- that I have no idea how to get to, and from the sound of things, I wouldn't survive the trip. Basically, people in BG seem to be passing though, and do not stay long. Maybe this is a product of my time zone (EST USA), but I've tried a couple of "off"-hours, to the same result.

I thought to take to the forums early (someone mentioned that new players don't know about it, or take advantage of it), but didn't really think of anything to post until today, and I will be posting more within the hour. I think, as active as these forums are, that this will be a great success -- I've really liked the level of interaction so far.

I would like to point out that the DM staff have been awesome -- helpful and eager to get me on my feet -- so a special thank you to an otherwise thankless job.

Lastly, I've read a bunch of the suggestions so far, and I think that any of them would be good. From my perspective:

* I can see both sides of the CR posting argument. On one hand, it kind of breaks the immersion, but on the other hand, it does away with a LOT of unnecessary frustration in the spaghetti-death scenario (e.g. throwing your character into every area until you find something that doesn't just kill and eat you in 2 seconds!). Speaking only for myself, I find the help (and lack of frustrating, nonsense deaths) far more enjoyable than the drawbacks. Perhaps we can merge a couple ideas and throw up a Level 1-x wiki help, to warn players, but not in an in-your-face kind of way. Also, I've liked how the guards posted outside the Cemetery have done this: "You'd get chewed up before you reach the second row; best to come back later." Good warning, stays in-game, doesn't break immersion. I wish I'd had something like this before I went to try and fetch those damnable billberries.

* Helper Guilds: I feel like this might be a lot to ask of a player, but if there is a player base willing to do so, that's great. What about a pseudo-NPC that some players could control -- basically, a player helper makes a regular PC that gets either capped or periodically bumped back down to low levels, and has the task of orienting new players? "This is the cemetery, it's dangerous, but if you insist, we can check it out." that sort of thing. They have a job (auxilliary guardsman?), and are a part of the town, but in a minor, and frankly self-sacrificing kind of way.



That's all I can really think of at the moment. If I come up with anything else, I'll be sure to jot it down for later.

Thanks to everyone in this thread doing their best to help new guys like me feel welcome and a part of the world!

~ DFM

^
I'm just curious, when you say you've seen no RP. Have you tried to engage with other characters yourself? Tried to have your character say something, as opposed to emoting? My character is around Baldur's Gate often but doesn't stop and talk to everyone she sees (because it doesn't seem natural to me). So, I might be one of the quiet ones just passing by! With a reason, she will engage. No offence but I often see people being a bit too passive when trying to find RP. Or standing around emoting brushing off their clothes or something equally 'normal' which doesn't quite warrant attention. You could've been going about all this in the right way and still seen a RP dry well... in which case, I just say, keep trying. Your character seems to be a holy guy, and it's easy to get involved in holy RP. Just need to get introduced to the right folks and they will drag you in and make you write reports engage in fruitful RP.

Easiest way to get into RP with a random is to ask a question that would warrant an answer. Can be as simple as "Isn't it a beautiful day today?" or other small talk.

Most characters will help others. Just ask! Nearly everyone will OOCly help you. If you're having trouble getting to places, ask ICly how to get there and if your character can have an escort. There are characters who offer these kind of 'mercenary' services. I see them as the equivalent of "a player helper". If asked, they will follow on all the quests and show you where they are, in an IC fashion.

You can also use the Scry status. "New player looking for company" or something, may have players swap to a character that is closer to levels than yours and seek you out.

I wish I'd had something like this before I went to try and fetch those damnable billberries.

The quest giver does warn you that it's dangerous!

Thanks for the advice. Just a quick update; It must have just been bad timing on my part, because the last two days have been a full turnaround. Lots of conversation, and lots of player engagement, so I fully withdraw my previous observations on that front.

I might have just missed the warning about the billberries, so I totally accept responsibility for that one. Low levels are tough in general.

I'd also like to say thanks for the potion advice; I wouldn't have thought to purchase those had I not read about it here.

All in all, I'm really glad I took the plunge and logged into BG. Thanks to all for the warm reception.

- DFM