Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Thorsson wrote:

Touri wrote:The RCR system is fine as it is. Also in my opinion it isn't really needed at all and I could live without.

The cl scaling messed up the pve balance. The server once had a really good balance but for now it is completly gone in my opinion.

@Calodan
I read the server goals and if I am honest then it scarred me a lot.

Me too. Scarred for life, I am.

So what happened to the scaling? Have monsters got too hard, too easy, or something else?

How is the "balance" messed now? Its the opposite of this now and i will give an example, rather than speaking out of thin air, or say that understand something when i havent even tried.

Since the scaling happened, i started a new character, an STR ranger ( what else ) and played most areas from level1 - currently level 16. The most recent example of how the CR scaling works great is this:

I was in the xvarts ( higher difficulty that what my 15lvl ranger can normally handle ) with a warlock. Because i know the mobs stats, i had enough AC and AB etc. Then because of the scaling, some yellow mobs come with some higher stats than normal. That was the point that things got very dangerous - and rightly so because i was at a higher CR area, getting 50xp per kill. I had to use healkits, displacement potions and fight together with the warlock as a team in order to survive.

A similar experience at a lower level was in the Orc cave.

The CR scaling is great in so many ways. Like any new system, it will need fine tuning. If only, instead of "understanding" it without playing, constructive criticism was given...

mrm3ntalist wrote:How is the "balance" messed now? Its the opposite of this now and i will give an example, rather than speaking out of thin air, or say that understand something when i havent even tried.

Since the scaling happened, i started a new character, an STR ranger ( what else ) and played most areas from level1 - currently level 16. The most recent example of how the CR scaling works great is this:

I was in the xvarts ( higher difficulty that what my 15lvl ranger can normally handle ) with a warlock. Because i know the mobs stats, i had enough AC and AB etc. Then because of the scaling, some yellow mobs come with some higher stats than normal. That was the point that things got very dangerous - and rightly so because i was at a higher CR area, getting 50xp per kill. I had to use healkits, displacement potions and fight together with the warlock as a team in order to survive.

A similar experience at a lower level was in the Orc cave.

The CR scaling is great in so many ways. Like any new system, it will need fine tuning. If only, instead of "understanding" it without playing, constructive criticism was given...

But you are a very able and experienced player. Perhaps, within your cast-iron certainty that you are right, there might be a little chink whereby you could think what a less experienced and able player might feel in a similar situation (after he got pwned)?

The fact is that any change has different effects on different people and unforeseen side effects that may not become obvious for some time. It sounds like the dynamic CR is generally positive, but it would lie outside human experience if there were no downsides...

You and buddy are both level 14 in cr 14 area. You both hit a new level and the area scales up by one and the enemies are slightly stronger. More than likely still doable but to reflect the increase in difficulty you gain more xp. If they do become too difficult though, well now you can go to a cr6 area with friend and fight cr10 enemies, a cr8 where you can fight cr12 mobs... you get the picture. It opens up a lot more for you to do. Also I think it scales up less if you're solo (correct me if I'm wrong) and scales by average level of group if in group (right? I'm sure it did that). Oh and of course the bosses and their minions that can spring up every now and then are fun. I don't see how this ruins balance, if anything it opens up more of the game and breathes new life to areas less often visited. Xvarts circle grinding will be a thing of the past, mark my words!

Thorsson wrote:But you are a very able and experienced player. Perhaps, within your cast-iron certainty that you are right, there might be a little chink whereby you could think what a less experienced and able player might feel in a similar situation (after he got pwned)?

The fact is that any change has different effects on different people and unforeseen side effects that may not become obvious for some time. It sounds like the dynamic CR is generally positive, but it would lie outside human experience if there were no downsides...

Because i am experienced ( know the AB,AC etc ) i was in a higher CR area. For a new player, at an appropriate CR area, the challenge raise is not supposed to be that great. If indeed, there are cases were the harder mobs spawn ( which is one at a time ) is too hard, that is something we should correct.

Try it for a change, then tell us what you think. It seems to me you are criticizing a system without actually having tried it. The epic level characters, cannot draw out lower level, at least no more than the could. Let us know if a spawned mini boss is too difficult and in which area.

Mentalist,

Touri plays a strength ranger and is usually dominating DM events.

He almost died in a cr 18 area with a dual party of 24/25s to random yellow name with inflated stats. That is not normal.

there are cases were the harder mobs spawn ( which is one at a time ) is too hard, that is something we should correct.

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

If there are no possibilities of needing to Run or Die, then the experience challenge is cheapened.

Considering the "loss" for dying is minimal to say the least, there has got to be a healthy amount of Possibility for Failure!!

DON'T CAVE IN TEAM!!!

Brother Bruce wrote:You and buddy are both level 14 in cr 14 area. You both hit a new level and the area scales up by one and the enemies are slightly stronger. More than likely still doable but to reflect the increase in difficulty you gain more xp. If they do become too difficult though, well now you can go to a cr6 area with friend and fight cr10 enemies, a cr8 where you can fight cr12 mobs... you get the picture. It opens up a lot more for you to do. Also I think it scales up less if you're solo (correct me if I'm wrong) and scales by average level of group if in group (right? I'm sure it did that). Oh and of course the bosses and their minions that can spring up every now and then are fun. I don't see how this ruins balance, if anything it opens up more of the game and breathes new life to areas less often visited. Xvarts circle grinding will be a thing of the past, mark my words!

Do you know, I rather doubt it. The main reason for Xvart grinding that I could see (I think I've only done it in a group twice or maybe thrice) is that the spawn rates are very high. I do see where you're coming from though - more areas are available, so grinding becomes less boring. It's just that I would rather that grinding wasn't necessary to level at a decent pace at all (and that it didn't speed it up either). But that's a different issue.

I tried a lot as well. And as I wrote, it's my opinion. And for sure I have reasons to think so.
Leveling above lvl 20 is just boring as there is no reason anymore to go to a place where you get a real challenge and risk to loose a lot of xp and trinkets when you can go and kill much more easy enemy at areas where you get just a few xp less for no risk. Before the change you really had to go to dangerous places if you wanted to see some progress. If it was the goal to make the game stupidily easy then you had succes.
Also the monsters scale not the same. A mage with 2 more lvl can be highly deadly now and a fighter monster just needs one more hit and still can't hit you. So yeah I get a lot more xp for nothing when stayin with fighter monsters while enemy cacters are now often absolut deadly. For some classes this system is such a bad thing. While for a dex/rogish build it took already long time to fight monsters with immunities and damage ressistance it now takes even more time to get them down with the result that I just don't go to such places anymore. For me the balance screwed up here completly.

Also the dc of the casters are far above the saving throws of the pc. It was like this before already, but now with the scaling it is hilarious for some builds. Where is the fun if you permanently get killed by failing the dc. Dispell then deathspell and you are gone. That is just frustrating and so much out of balance. Before the scaling you could go to such places after a few more levels and now they lvl with you and always get you. The result is that there is another place where some builds can't go to.

mrm3ntalist wrote:Because i am experienced ( know the AB,AC etc ) i was in a higher CR area. For a new player, at an appropriate CR area, the challenge raise is not supposed to be that great. If indeed, there are cases were the harder mobs spawn ( which is one at a time ) is too hard, that is something we should correct.

Try it for a change, then tell us what you think. It seems to me you are criticizing a system without actually having tried it. The epic level characters, cannot draw out lower level, at least no more than the could. Let us know if a spawned mini boss is too difficult and in which area.

When I can play again I will try it, but you will not tempt me to the dark side Mr M.

Hoihe wrote:Mentalist,

Touri plays a strength ranger and is usually dominating DM events.

He almost died in a cr 18 area with a dual party of 24/25s to random yellow name with inflated stats. That is not normal.

cr 18 area scales to cr22 or was that accounted for? and of course it isn't normal. It's a special encounter that probably required more effort than the standard creature that level

Steve wrote:

there are cases were the harder mobs spawn ( which is one at a time ) is too hard, that is something we should correct.

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

If there are no possibilities of needing to Run or Die, then the experience challenge is cheapened.

Considering the "loss" for dying is minimal to say the least, there has got to be a healthy amount of Possibility for Failure!!

DON'T CAVE IN TEAM!!!

OK Mr Banana; you also seem to have lost sight of a key point. It's fine if my character is a gung-ho type that bites off more than he can chew and dies. But what if he's a timid soul, trying to stay well within his limits, but happened upon a randomly hard monster? In PnP, if you DM and the dice fall in an extremely bad way, is it good DM'ing to kill the whole party?

One further point for your consideration - what now happens to the non-power builds? (OK officially BGTSCC doesn't have power builds, but you and I know that is rubbish)

Touri wrote:Also the monsters scale not the same.

I didn't want to predict this, but it was a foreseeable consequence. An area built for level 18s, then boosted for level 22s, is not necessarily the same as an area designed for level 22s. It probably is close for fighter types on fighter types, but others not so much...

Thorsson wrote:

Touri wrote:Also the monsters scale not the same.

I didn't want to predict this, but it was a foreseeable consequence. An area built for level 18s, then boosted for level 22s, is not necessarily the same as an area designed for level 22s. It probably is close for fighter types on fighter types, but others not so much...

Yes and that is what I meant when I wrote that it srewed up the balance a lot. Suddenly mages in high cr areas use epic spells and kill chars easily without much chance.

Thorsson wrote: OK Mr Banana; you also seem to have lost sight of a key point. It's fine if my character is a gung-ho type that bites off more than he can chew and dies. But what if he's a timid soul, trying to stay well within his limits, but happened upon a randomly hard monster?

Then he should run? Bring more friends? Adventuring is supposed to be life-threatening, isn't it? It's why you're a PC, and not a commoner.

Thorsson wrote:In PnP, if you DM and the dice fall in an extremely bad way, is it good DM'ing to kill the whole party?

As I'm frequently reminded by players here, this isn't PnP. And no DM I know would ever not let a PC try and flee from an encounter, unless it was something the player had purposely trapped themselves in.

Thorsson wrote:One further point for your consideration - what now happens to the non-power builds? (OK officially BGTSCC doesn't have power builds, but you and I know that is rubbish)

Raising the CR a few points isn't going to make non-powerbuild characters obsolete. It just means smarter dungeon hunting, and less grind.

Dragonslayer wrote:

Thorsson wrote:1. OK Mr Banana; you also seem to have lost sight of a key point. It's fine if my character is a gung-ho type that bites off more than he can chew and dies. But what if he's a timid soul, trying to stay well within his limits, but happened upon a randomly hard monster?

Then he should run? Bring more friends? Adventuring is supposed to be life-threatening, isn't it? It's why you're a PC, and not a commoner.

Thorsson wrote:2. In PnP, if you DM and the dice fall in an extremely bad way, is it good DM'ing to kill the whole party?

As I'm frequently reminded by players here, this isn't PnP. And no DM I know would ever not let a PC try and flee from an encounter, unless it was something the player had purposely trapped themselves in.

Thorsson wrote:3. One further point for your consideration - what now happens to the non-power builds? (OK officially BGTSCC doesn't have power builds, but you and I know that is rubbish)

Raising the CR a few points isn't going to make non-powerbuild characters obsolete. It just means smarter dungeon hunting, and less grind.

I have to save my one arm some work here, so I've numbered the three points.

1. This assumes he can find friends. When I looked earlier today there were 9 people playing. And then again, with all this RCR-ing there often aren't many low level characters around. IOW he may not be able to bring anyone else. Mind you, if he's low level he's probably been twinked, so scratch that. It'll be as dangerous as a ride at a Disney Theme Park.

2. Fleeing is good, I agree. But our luckless hero saw a kobold. "It's my lucky day", thinks he, "even I can cream a kobold". Except this kobold is a super boosted shaman that MMs him to death in seconds flat. Oh well, there's always next time!

3. It means that they can't deliberately choose below par areas on the basis that a few XP is better than none (and a quick death).

Merry Xmas everybody!