Dynamic CR scaling on spawns questions

[Hoihe]

Or you could bloody try and not cast the opposition in a "Baaah baah they babies they they..!"


Perchance?

No?

I play all sorts of classes. They all have their weaknesses and strengths.

the object of fun is not to make everything a cakewalk for your particular style and class.

that is all all these nerf requests are.


looting is more profitable than ever, XP is easier than ever. potions are half price(so combined with looting, they are essentially quarter price), Nobody forces anyone to go anywhere.
run into a room with 5 mystics? A 100 gp invisibility potion will let you live, heal, and plot a counter-attack.

My idea of fun is that an area is balanced around +3 gear acquired at level 30 and vs a single fighter hitting recommended on level up the whole time in terms of CR rating.

In EVE online, if you take a battlecruiser to a level 4 mission without carrying the right equipment, you die. OTOH, if you take a simple cruiser to a level 4 mission equipped with the exact resistances and damage types, it becomes a cakewalk. Should that level 4 mission be re balanced so the cruiser cannot do it as a cakewalk?


The above is my issue with your wants. You want to remove the ability to turn things into cakewalks by preparing right by making everything require the stronger tool for the job. "The Cruiser can do level 4 missions! Let's make it impossible for them to do that, also affecting those BC players who aren't as resourceful as our cruiser player!"

The purpose of good equipment, specialized equipment and specialized builds is not to enable content, it's to turn said content into easy content. The only content such should be the minimum for is end game or optional content.

[NeOmega]

Or you could bloody try and not cast the opposition in a "Baaah baah they babies they they..!"


Perchance?

No?

I play all sorts of classes. They all have their weaknesses and strengths.

the object of fun is not to make everything a cakewalk for your particular style and class.

that is all all these nerf requests are.


looting is more profitable than ever, XP is easier than ever. potions are half price(so combined with looting, they are essentially quarter price), Nobody forces anyone to go anywhere.
run into a room with 5 mystics? A 100 gp invisibility potion will let you live, heal, and plot a counter-attack.

My idea of fun is that an area is balanced around +3 gear acquired at level 30 and vs a single fighter hitting recommended on level up the whole time in terms of CR rating.

In EVE online, if you take a battlecruiser to a level 4 mission without carrying the right equipment, you die. OTOH, if you take a simple cruiser to a level 4 mission equipped with the exact resistances and damage types, it becomes a cakewalk. Should that level 4 mission be re balanced so the cruiser cannot do it as a cakewalk?


The above is my issue with your wants. You want to remove the ability to turn things into cakewalks by preparing right by making everything require the stronger tool for the job. "The Cruiser can do level 4 missions! Let's make it impossible for them to do that, also affecting those BC players who aren't as resourceful as our cruiser player!"

The purpose of good equipment, specialized equipment and specialized builds is not to enable content, it's to turn said content into easy content. The only content such should be the minimum for is end game or optional content.

You need to think out your argument better, and then rework your delivery.

tell the cruiser to take an invisibility potion with it, or re-roll as a sneak, So it can cakewalk the Sharptooth Sector, but warn it not to go into the galaxy of the dead, because they are cruiser immune.

[Hoihe]

You wholly ignored my whole point.

Our cruiser friend, someone who is not "supposed" to be able to do a content, is able to do said content because the player is good and uses the right tactics and equipment for the job.

This is obviously bad, right? I mean, it was designed for BattleCruisers! So, let's make it impossible for any cruiser to solo said content, no matter the player skill and equipment. To do this content, you must be a battlecruiser!

However, even amongst battlecruisers there are differences. Some just slap on PvP armor and go do PvE and succeed by the fact that they are battle cruisers, despite being awfully ill equipped. Granted, they're much harder to gank than a specialised ship, and have much better ability to do all kinds of things, but are nowhere the best at anything but...can do stuff alright with the right tactics. PvE wise, they are equal to our super specced out cruiser. By making it impossible for the cruiser, we make it impossible for the battle cruiser as well. The only people who can now do the content are the battlecruiser grade of Cruisers, those who specialize in that exact content and nobody else.


Analogy clarifications:

Cruiser specced out to the hell and back: Level 15 powerbuild played by someone who was on the server since its inception. Say, Karond playing one of his dwarves.

BattleCruiser with PvP build: Level 20 character with RP build. They both can do stuff, but need right tactics.

BattleCruiser with specced out to hell and back build: Level 20 character with powerbuild AND the right tactics.





Regarding adjustments:


Not an adjustment to the creatures, but rather to the CR of the area. Troll Claws gives less XP at level 21 than the gnolls, but is a much harder area. The trolls have regeneration, AC above 30, some of them able to reach 30 AB (Non-yellow name, a yellow name cave troll can reach 35 AB), lots of HP, high amount of attacks/round and they spawn in large quantities.

With the amount of AB&DMG they have, their spawn rates enforce the use of Displacement and Mirror images with 48 AC travelling through the troll claws. This isn't an issue in itself. The issue is the CR of the area.


Troll claws, with the above difficult aspects being piled on top of each other, is just CR 18! Reaching Woods, where the enemies are about equal and have no regeneration - with the only risk being their casters - is CR 23.

By being only CR 18 on paper, the trolls are incredibly unrewarding in terms of XP vs the difficulty. The ogre cave is the right CR, same for the troll cave, but the exterior doesn't feel it at all.

As such, I recommend either setting the area to a higher "on paper" CR to be better rewarding for the difficulty posed, for the spawn rates to be reduced unless at the crossing, or for the spawn rates to be weighted against fell trolls with their 30 AB.

For comparison, my level 20 RP build can with the right tools, spells and tactics succeed at fighting gnolls in reaching woods without undue risk. She got the like of 50 XP per kill. Only time she had trouble were when I couldn't handle aggro properly, or specifically when it was a mage AND a gnoll in the same 1 vs many situation. That's alright, I was fighting stuff above my paygrade, I got rewarded properly, and there was equal risk. Even at level 22, gnolls give good rewards.

Now, said RP build became level 22 and I decided to mess around with trolls. Trolls have no spellcasters, and I've a very good acid weapon that can debuff enemies. Immidiately I encountered a fell troll with 30 AB wailing at my 50 AC as a AC/save focused character. No problem, it's just a single foe, sort of a miniboss, no? Wrong! I ended up having more fell trolls spawned on me with their 30 ABs and high N attacks/round. Killed both of them, AND the ettin, AND the troll hunter joining in on the fun. I used up 2 Mirror Images and drained my clickies for healing.

I look at how much XP I got: 120 XP for an encounter where I had more difficulty than the yellow name trolls inside the caves or the gnolls in the cr23 area.

In conclusion, I say the trolls either have their CR increased to 20 from 18 for sake of providing equal rewards to the Reaching Woods, or that fell trolls get greatly weighed against when spawning so no more than 1 30 AB high HP/AC character can wail away at you at once.

A standard pure fighter at level 18/20 shouldn't have more AC than:
10 + 1 (luck of heroes) + 1 (tumble) + 3 (dodge) + 3 (natural) + 3 (armor) + 3 (shield) + 3 (deflect) + 2 (heavy shield) + 9 (full plate) + 1 (dex) + 1 (dodge feat).

That's 40 AC vs current target. Vs a foe that has 30 AB. Our fighter friend stands no chance, or if he does, he'll eat a ton of healing kits. He could technically eat 5 AB and gain 5 more AC for 45 (tower shield/Combat expertise) [or 8 AB for 8 AC with tower shield/ICE], but will he have the damage AND AB to take out said troll before its natural 20s make his day hell again?

1 vs 1 he has a good chance. 1 vs 2/3 of said troll? He's dead.

[aaron22]

I don't know what you are doing but at level 20 you should not have any problems in troll claws. I go at 17 and I do not power build. I optimise concepts but not power build.

[NeOmega]

My points are this, and I'll leave it to the devs:

This is a game with a wide variety of builds with a wide variety of strengths and weaknesses. Many of those build get special abilities that make them good for some things, but bad at others.

It is unfair to these builds to remove the challenges they are good at, because some people's builds are not good at them. For example, it would be unfair to Paladins and Clerics to remove fields of the Dead, or undead crit immunity, because Rogues and other backstabbers are completely useless there.

Likewise, it would be unfair to remove mobs of casters because fighters or paladins and other non-sneaks can't handle them. I personally enjoy taking on caster mobs when I am a sneak or ranger. That's what stealth and/or tracking is for. That is what the monk's Spell resistance feat is for.

I don't want my fun when playing those builds to be ruined, just because somebody, who makes a build, feels like their build should be able to take on anything, and do so with ease.

NO.

NO. This is not a game where you get to build Odysseus, the almighty, who is the hero at everything. You build characters with weaknesses and strengths. If you find your character is not so good at some areas or challenges, it is not fair to those who are strong at it, to ask the devs to remove those challenges.

[aaron22]

Right. You find the areas you are good at and avoid the ones you are not. Run away if you are gonna get killed. Elementary?

[Cenerae]

If we're going to compare the Troll Claws with the Reaching Woods, I should point out that while the trolls are fairly beefy melee types, that's all there is to them. There's not really any combat tricks to worry about. Meanwhile with the gnolls, unless you're an archer and can destroy the clerics safely, there's always going to be that ever-present threat of rolling a 1 against Destruction. Plus the melee gnolls can crit harder, and they have actual archers instead of enemies that chuck a rock or two and then run to melee.

Some builds are just going to have an easier time in some areas than others. That's just how it's always going to be, especially if you're going it solo. I don't feel confident in bringing my fighter alone to anywhere with undead (or crit immunes in general) since she loses her swashbuckler int to damage on those...I avoid anywhere with high DR (I can't even tickle rock beasts in Nashkel mines without being buffed) because I hit many times for relatively low damage. And I avoid anywhere where having a will save that isn't pathetic is important. So where my fighter can go alone is quite limited.

But when she's running with her sorceror friend, suddenly it becomes a lot easier, since the wards and buffs can compensate for the weak will save and help prop up the damage output a bit, in addition to the extra blasting power. And in turn, I help provide a sturdier wall than the sorc can manage alone, and with them getting to save their big spell slots for sudden packs instead of having to expend them just to kill a few things solo.

So...really, I don't think it needs changing on the basis of whether or not it's too difficult to solo, unless things are blatantly over the top.

[NeOmega]

And pro-tip to those who fear casting mobs:

Choking powder, mrs Robinson, Choking Powder.

[AC81]

No changes needed from my pov. The system works great and adds an element of uncertainty to adventuring which is as it should be. Walking alone into an Orc or troll cave is a dangerous activity and should pose a threat.

[Velaris]

I'm all for these additional surprises! With my cleric, I can cake walk the vaults np, turning makes the revenant into a statuesque punching bag. But trolls wreck me in short order! As it should be!

You know what I do? This may sound ridiculous, but I form a group.
(I know! How absurd is that?? A group, in d&d? )

I don't know if I can even respond to these posts in a serious manner. I say make it dangerous, more so if you wish! Any single class should not be able to handle everything. You should be in groups, that's the point of an rp server yes?

If you really need to solo, or can't find a group that day, you can go to those areas where your toon does well, or do those fluffy kitten quests for imbalanced xp vs effort. Accept that travelling alone increases your risk.

[AC81]

Any single class should not be able to handle everything.

Whaaat ?!?!?

+1 BTW.

[Velaris]

Edit : except Rev. All comments do not imply these rules apply to Rev

[Hoihe]

Here's the problem with both arguments.

Some levels have no alternative that allows for decent rate of progression financially and experience wise.

And it's near impossible to party up if you have any of the following, or combination:

• Limited playtime - with hatred of bailing mid play. So you know you'll not be able to maintain deadlines if you party up because you feel responsible for seeing it through.
• Good aligned character when only known evil PCs or at least very dubious characters on.
• Playing a character that fears for their life, so they won't party with people who look like they'll stab you in the back for your dagger.

So neither "go elsewhere" and "group up" works. They're boons, they're not givens.


For the record, Valefort commented that I have the best luck ever when it comes to the dynamic spawns. After seeing a screenshot, he told me "that's 0.23% chance * boss probability hoihe, i think you should try lottery" (I had a spawn go from 23 AB to 35 AB. Apparently that's the chances of such happening.)

So I literally have the luck to get the worst possible spawns possible, as confirmed by the Whale of Programming la France.

[dedude]

Just wanted to comment that we really appreciate this feedback. You don’t have to turn it into a heated argument. It’s not like we change these things without considering them carefully first. But it’s very valuable to get all the player feedback we can. I especially enjoy when someone writes up a small description of an encounter they faced. Helps me evaluate whether the experience I’m aiming for is also how it’s seen from the player perspective.

Based on some of these reports we have recently toned down the top end of the dynamic spawn potential. There was some synergy between two systems that was unintentional, and gave some nasty potential (as Hoihe can attest to). Very rare occurrence, but if it can happen it will happen.

[Hoihe]

Just wanted to comment that we really appreciate this feedback. You don’t have to turn it into a heated argument. It’s not like we change these things without considering them carefully first. But it’s very valuable to get all the player feedback we can. I especially enjoy when someone writes up a small description of an encounter they faced. Helps me evaluate whether the experience I’m aiming for is also how it’s seen from the player perspective.

Based on some of these reports we have recently toned down the top end of the dynamic spawn potential. There was some synergy between two systems that was unintentional, and gave some nasty potential (as Hoihe can attest to). Very rare occurrence, but if it can happen it will happen.

Knowing my luck, I probably kept getting top end spawns when game decided to keep giving me maximum 5 on attack rolls .