Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Thorsson wrote:When people "love" dynamic CR, what they mean is they love that they can gain XP in more areas, which means they level faster (even if it's only that it takes longer to get bored). The problem with dynamic CR is that it gives even less reason to start a character at level 1.

I love dynamic CR because it provides more challenging fights, and fills the fights with surprises. PERIOD. I have always pushed my characters to fight harder. I dont want to run around in circles at the xvart village for hours. That sounds like tedious, excruciating torture. In fact, i hear people that do it, say it is.

and yes, i like that i would get 25 to 32 xp per kill. I am human, I do want progression too. But each battle takes 2 or 3 minutes, unlike those snooze fests where you run around and kill a xvart every 20 seconds. zzzzzzzzzzz.

But its not about the xp. I want good fights.

I love loot. I love seeing the random stuff.

Personally, my favorite experience is low level, starting out, and finding gear that you hobble together . I like a good fight, and if i die, that means it was a lot of good fights before they got me back. No big deal. I often would take a level 5, and see how far in cloakwood mines it could get. The loot and XP was part of it, of course, but moreso... ...i just want a good fight.

Calodan wrote:

2. Higher level parties can drive out lower from an area.

The CR scaling only add up to 4 levels. While if you are a level 11 PC and in a level 8 CR another party comes through that is say level 11 as well then the CR scaling will engage and you may face up to a level 12 mob. I had this happen on my archer the other night. It was awesome fun. Mostly because I got a suspenseful message that said something was AFOOT! It was so immersive cool I am willing to say that the "PROBLEMS" you are talking about are actually FEATURES.......This server got way more fun and cool in the last 4 months. SERIOUSLY.

While we all argue about this a bit and or debate if you will. Please take a moment to read the server goals this year. There are some nice things in there one of them being making a XP POOL system that will take that approx. 10K XP you can get weekly in quests and allow you to get that XP however you please in the game world. I.E. Go quest and it will drain it that way or go do dungeon crawls. Or fish. Or talk about your feelings. Whatever suits you. I think that will really help a lot of the issue in the EPICS. 10K XP per week is no joke and also already part of the servers not wanting to lessen the time it takes. Remember that a good portion of the server does not do ALL the quests at any given time if at all. So when a server admin or dev says the length of time it takes currently with leveling ins good enough then we as players need to take into account that sort of thing.

yup, i was in the gnoll caves, "you hear a lot of commotion". I was holding my own, then a shaman and an army chased me out... ..with a sliver of life left.

The ambushes are cooler now too. They seem to happen more often.

Also, the fights are pretty good right out the gate. A good fight for most levels can be found within 2 transitions.

NeOmega wrote:I love dynamic CR because it provides more challenging fights...

I get you; I feel the same. But you and I are not everyone. This is shown by the numbers that did go to the Xvarts as pre-formed groups. And yes, like Mr M, you know what you're doing. One of the things I'm saying is that we all need to look beyond our specific experience and say, "Is this good for everyone?. If the answer is no, then can it be better?"

But anyway, this seems to be devolving into a discussion on dynamic CR, which I see is already taking place in another thread. My point in this thread is that it was only felt necessary because of other factors. It might be great, it might not, or more likely it's great with a few issues, but the point really should be that there should be a coherent view of what BGTSCC should look like and then development should be harnessed to that. It feels like currently, it's more that "cool ideas" decide the direction of BGTSCC. Well, they might be cool, but they might also be storing up problems in the longer run (or they might not). Just like RCR; does what it set out to do, but if I was running this server I'd be wishing it never got implemented, because people are always asking for it to be changed.

Thorsson wrote:

NeOmega wrote:I love dynamic CR because it provides more challenging fights...

I get you; I feel the same. But you and I are not everyone. This is shown by the numbers that did go to the Xvarts as pre-formed groups. And yes, like Mr M, you know what you're doing. One of the things I'm saying is that we all need to look beyond our specific experience and say, "Is this good for everyone?. If the answer is no, then can it be better?"

But anyway, this seems to be devolving into a discussion on dynamic CR, which I see is already taking place in another thread. My point in this thread is that it was only felt necessary because of other factors. It might be great, it might not, or more likely it's great with a few issues, but the point really should be that there should be a coherent view of what BGTSCC should look like and then development should be harnessed to that. It feels like currently, it's more that "cool ideas" decide the direction of BGTSCC. Well, they might be cool, but they might also be storing up problems in the longer run (or they might not). Just like RCR; does what it set out to do, but if I was running this server I'd be wishing it never got implemented, because people are always asking for it to be changed.

it is devolving into a whole bunch of topics, because they are all intertwined. That is why someone earlier wrote about doing open heart surgery on the xp system. It is all intertwined, intertwind with no ILR items, with RCR, with dynamic CR, with questing. Everything.

NeOmega wrote:it is devolving into a whole bunch of topics, because they are all intertwined. That is why someone earlier wrote about doing open heart surgery on the xp system. It is all intertwined, intertwind with no ILR items, with RCR, with dynamic CR, with questing. Everything.

Yes, it is. I also made that very point. However, I think it's just got a little too focused on dynamic CR at the moment.

Touri wrote:Also the monsters scale not the same. A mage with 2 more lvl can be highly deadly now and a fighter monster just needs one more hit and still can't hit you. So yeah I get a lot more xp for nothing when stayin with fighter monsters while enemy cacters are now often absolut deadly. For some classes this system is such a bad thing. While for a dex/rogish build it took already long time to fight monsters with immunities and damage ressistance it now takes even more time to get them down with the result that I just don't go to such places anymore. For me the balance screwed up here completly.

Also the dc of the casters are far above the saving throws of the pc. It was like this before already, but now with the scaling it is hilarious for some builds. Where is the fun if you permanently get killed by failing the dc. Dispell then deathspell and you are gone. That is just frustrating and so much out of balance. Before the scaling you could go to such places after a few more levels and now they lvl with you and always get you. The result is that there is another place where some builds can't go to.

I read this before, i think it was about the chaos mage. The DCs are the same. If anything they might increase by 1.

Is there any example we can use? Because we have the numbers. We can see how the casters scale and is nowhere close what you guys make it to be. If you have an example, maybe we can look it closely and see whether there is something we missed.

Thorsson wrote:When I can play again I will try it, but you will not tempt me to the dark side Mr M.

I would love to see you playing again. I hope it works!

The Server is simply better off if there is a steady stream of Level 1-to-30 Characters being made and played, which MUST include veterans of the Server also participating.

So you've played the Hilltop Ruins 7 times so far...but have you RP'd a Gnome, or a Dwarf, or a Human Shadow Adept, while doing it?

My point is that Characters starting from Level 1 can be important, not only in the Player's enjoyment, but also in the Players' enjoyment.

Conceiving of Leveling on BGTSCC as a "grind," is a statement that also communicates some lack of appreciation of Being that Character, as in Role-play of that Character, at the level/progression they are, at that time. It also lacks an appreciation of the entirety of the Server, as well an appreciation how RP from vets can be a positive influence on the new players, as they might carefully dip into D&D role-playing for the first time...believe that or not!

I also appreciate the effort and the result of reaching Level 30, with a Character. And, please, stay at that Level and in that Character's RP for as long as you want (not that anyone is asking permission, but I think Players should keep their Toon's RP going as much as they like).

But at a certain point, being Level 30 is staying at a certain "end point" to possible progression, and without progression, Character "life" in terms outside a SIMs-like gaming experience, is exceptionally limited.

Furthermore, if being Level 30 is truly the only way that a Player can have an affect upon BGTSCC, then there truly is a problem with how things are run, from both a design and a support of that design & support of RP perspective.

But I don't believe it. It is, however, never a constant. That is something else that needs to be accepted, I guess. Hard to accept, right?!?

The RCR as it is now, is as balanced as it ever has been. That taking a Level 30 and getting a Level 20 for a new Character concept and new RP, is a fair tax. It means that the Player still has to "get out there" in the world, in order to find that Holy Progression (or, fish a lot, but c'mon!!!).

On that note, I think it would be great if Players with Level 30 toons can enter a Program that would allow them easier means to NPC their character. So that, though no longer played, it still exists in "the Realm," with some importance for eternity. How cool would that be, right?!?

Thorsson wrote:I have to save my one arm some work here, so I've numbered the three points.

1. This assumes he can find friends. When I looked earlier today there were 9 people playing. And then again, with all this RCR-ing there often aren't many low level characters around. IOW he may not be able to bring anyone else. Mind you, if he's low level he's probably been twinked, so scratch that. It'll be as dangerous as a ride at a Disney Theme Park.

2. Fleeing is good, I agree. But our luckless hero saw a kobold. "It's my lucky day", thinks he, "even I can cream a kobold". Except this kobold is a super boosted shaman that MMs him to death in seconds flat. Oh well, there's always next time!

3. It means that they can't deliberately choose below par areas on the basis that a few XP is better than none (and a quick death).

Merry Xmas everybody!

I laughed way to hard at point #2 here. Not saying your experience did not sour you. I had that issue with a rogue archer BEFORE this CR scaling happened. However from what I understand Lisa put in some nice areas that bridge that gap you are hitting right there. One really needs to get on and play before commenting I think on some of the new stuff. It is subjective to a point no matter what yes but I am telling you it has made way more laughs and cries of fun since going fully live.

Seriously though wasn't there a story about how a DM made even Kobolds hell on aperson once? This brought back memories of that tale and I laughed hard enough if I had been a once pregnant lady I would have pissed myself........

Steve wrote:Conceiving of Leveling on BGTSCC as a "grind," is a statement that also communicates some lack of appreciation of Being that Character, as in Role-play of that Character, at the level/progression they are, at that time. It also lacks an appreciation of the entirety of the Server, as well an appreciation how RP from vets can be a positive influence on the new players, as they might carefully dip into D&D role-playing for the first time...believe that or not!

It's not that having to gain XP itself is a grind, the issue is that you have to keep repeating the same content over and over again to gain XP. This was even worse when loot chests could be looted twice and not individualised. While it was more realistic, and groups whose play style aligned with mine just went in, went out and divided the loot beside a campfire or in an inn, I often did end up with groups that ran around a dungeon in circles until everyone looted every chest at least once - two hours of running around the same dungeon in a party of 6, killing the same boss over and over again and the like.

I am yet to test if the dungeon XP is as poor as it was a year ago - where you'd have had to do the same dungeon a good 10-15 times to level up assuming full clears, or do every dungeon you can do with party/solo about 3 times to get a level up.

And finding parties who want a dungeon crawl over the more efficient running around in circles is awfully difficult. Dungeon crawl meaning that you slowly and with caution of an adventurer fearing for their life and not the reckless rushing of a berzerker go through every dungeon from X CR to Y, stopping to RP rest and all that. Why? It's slower than running around in circles, despite being more enjoyable :S.

I would say the RP XP from adventuring (moving slowly/cautiously through a dungeon) makes up for the lack of mob kill XP pretty well. It may not fire as fast as you can kill whatever mobs are in the area by running around, but it generally gives more XP then you will get in epics from mobs. Mobs will give you somewhere between 25-35 XP per kill, but I have seen the RP XP fire at 50 plus XP.

Basically in epics the quickest path remains doing non-epic quest runs, unfortunately. Hopefully that will change in the future which will make going back to 20 on an RCR a less concerning experience for some.

I'll just reiterate my previous post, because it got lost in the shuffle I think

Calodan wrote:
2. Fleeing is good, I agree. But our luckless hero saw a kobold. "It's my lucky day", thinks he, "even I can cream a kobold". Except this kobold is a super boosted shaman that MMs him to death in seconds flat. Oh well, there's always next time!

D

i laughed way to hard at point #2 here. Not saying your experience did not sour you. I had that issue with a rogue archer BEFORE this CR scaling happened. However from what I understand Lisa put in some nice areas that bridge that gap you are hitting right there. One really needs to get on and play before commenting I think on some of the new stuff. It is subjective to a point no matter what yes but I am telling you it has made way more laughs and cries of fun since going fully live.

Seriously though wasn't there a story about how a DM made even Kobolds hell on aperson once? This brought back memories of that tale and I laughed hard enough if I had been a once pregnant lady I would have pissed myself........

one of the hardest parts in one of the baldurs gates was the kobolds at a bridge. They had flaming arrows and they killed my party multiple times. I still remember that part. (15 years ago)

i am pretty sure it was around level 7 or 8, because remember feeling pretty invincible, until i got there. in fact, i think it was the most challenging part of the whole game for me.

That was in the Nashkell mine , right? just one passage which was trapped and weak kobolds with too powerful ammunition...

Edit: i looked it up. lvl 3 on nashkell mine?

I found the hardest part actually the iron throne assassin party that is hunting for both you and the villain. That party has a guy with arrows of detonation.

I think he is talking about Firewine Bridge... The dungeon below Firewine/Gullykin has lots of tunnels where Kobolds shoot fire arrows at you. Nashkel Mines had them too, but in smaller quantities and usually you're characters are only level 3 or 4 by that point, so yeah.

Man I played that game too much.