Game Mechanics Discrimination

[Deathgrowl]

None of this would be needed if the individual rule breakers were punished for breaking the rules that have been in place forever here.... then the rest of us do not have to suffer for it.

But the rule that has been in place forever is to not grind and loot on the other side. The enforcing of that isn't punishing "the rest", simply because "the rest" isn't supposed to be doing it either. What am I missing here?

[adobongmanok]

There's also a point that people just seem to ignore entirely here. The intention is to discourage people being on the other side without proper RP reason. Drow, duergar and svirfnebli (but honestly mainly drow as a tendency) being on the surface should be extremely rare. Extreeeeemely rare. There's the sun. The distance. The dangers that ought to be in traversing the underdark and even getting to the surface.

Drow shouldn't even be wanting to go to the surface without a very clear goal. Not just "exporation". And the same can be said the other way around. Elves, humans and halflings in particular have no business wobbling about in the underdark. Including within humans should also be planetouched humans, as they are human offspring. Every. Single. One. So I've been confused ever since I started playing on the server as to why genasi and tieflings can somehow start in the underdark. I suppose they could be offspring of deep imaskari. What are even the deep imaskari doing this far west? But this is turning into a rant...

So for the people who are against the rule, that has been in place for many years, how do you address that? How do you lower the amount of drow characters (or other underdark characters) waddling around on the surface for no logical reason? Or do you simply not approve of the lore?

But the rule that has been in place forever is to not grind and loot on the other side. The enforcing of that isn't punishing "the rest", simply because "the rest" isn't supposed to be doing it either. What am I missing here?

I see another point being ignored here, Upperdark is part of Underdark lore-wise, yet there's a rule that imposes Upperdark as neutral zone. Another is that UD races are kill on sight in every single surface cities/towns. Yet, the biggest city in UD (Sshamath), surfacers are not KoS. Talk about the huge disparity here.

So using the same argument, Surfacers should be Extreeeeemely rare in Upperdark. So we should lessen the surface playable toons then in the Uppderdark area?

Of course the majority of the server agrees with this mechanic change. See topic: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=64209

UD players are the minority here. Should we just drive them out of the server because the majority says so? I would say no, but it is up to the people who runs it.

It's interesting how people hide behind the reason of rules and lores, yet when something is against their interest they are quite bending of it. As understandable as it is, it is clear that this mechanic change does not fix its intention to lessen the PVP aggression which seems to be the root of the problem prior the implementation of the system.

I would say, come play a dedicated UD toon and see the problem yourself. It is easy to watch from the ivory towers of surfacers, not notice the growing problems in the UD. There are people who are trying to make it great and I applaud them as they do not get enough credit.

[professiondude]

There's also a point that people just seem to ignore entirely here. The intention is to discourage people being on the other side without proper RP reason. Drow, duergar and svirfnebli (but honestly mainly drow as a tendency) being on the surface should be extremely rare. Extreeeeemely rare. There's the sun. The distance. The dangers that ought to be in traversing the underdark and even getting to the surface.

Drow shouldn't even be wanting to go to the surface without a very clear goal. Not just "exporation". And the same can be said the other way around. Elves, humans and halflings in particular have no business wobbling about in the underdark. Including within humans should also be planetouched humans, as they are human offspring. Every. Single. One. So I've been confused ever since I started playing on the server as to why genasi and tieflings can somehow start in the underdark. I suppose they could be offspring of deep imaskari. What are even the deep imaskari doing this far west? But this is turning into a rant...

So for the people who are against the rule, that has been in place for many years, how do you address that? How do you lower the amount of drow characters (or other underdark characters) waddling around on the surface for no logical reason? Or do you simply not approve of the lore?

what would you (flasmix as a DM on the team, or any that would like to add) do if me and my little group of orcs started whacking noobs on the surface? lets even say we are out "grinding/looting/rping" but it just so happens to be in a place where <15 level toons go often. and we are killing them in droves. with a pvp out of course. and it wasnt just once, reoccurring enough to be noticed.

Ask how well received the Blood Claws and Khogans (or whatever they were called) were.

The problem here I believe is in this post right here. You are telling someone how to play their PC.
Plain and simple, you are telling someone that their RP is wrong and shun them for it and some people even use OOC information to attack said Drow with no RP behind it, they flag up and kill them because sadly they can get away with it since drow are KOS.
KOS in a RP server doesn't belong in my view, at all.

but alas This nonsense has gone on long enough. So HERE is a solution to everyone's problems.

Don't tell people they're Roleplaying a drow wrong and if the DM team believes they are then how about we start making Drow race PC's require a DM approval before letting anyone and everyone play a monster race?

Is creating a solution so hard?

Do you have a right to criticize someone for playing their PC the way they do when we've all broken character at least once in our BG lives?

end note: Make drow a restricted race, as well as svirnefblin, and whatever else monstrosities live in the UD.
But lets not just limit it there. Lets make Tieflings, Aasimars, Orcs, any non-human race restricted and require applications.

Flame me if you want, I'm trying to present some solutions to age old problems.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

but alas This nonsense has gone on long enough. So HERE is a solution to everyone's problems.

Don't tell people they're Roleplaying a drow wrong and if the DM team believes they are then how about we start making Drow race PC's require a DM approval before letting anyone and everyone play a monster race?

"Here is my template of a bio, ty for approval cause if you deny me then you're saying my RP is wrong."

[Deathgrowl]

Yes. There should be some limits to how you play a drow (or anything else, given the setting). I could take it to the extreme and say you shouldn't play a drow speznaz RPing that their crossbow is an AK47.

And I never said "you have to play LIKE THIS!". I specifically used the word "discourage". Not "prevent". You are still able to be on the surface with no appropriate reason, but there's not much for you there.

[professiondude]

Yes. There should be some limits to how you play a drow (or anything else, given the setting). I could take it to the extreme and say you shouldn't play a drow speznaz RPing that their crossbow is an AK47.

And I never said "you have to play LIKE THIS!". I specifically used the word "discourage". Not "prevent". You are still able to be on the surface with no appropriate reason, but there's not much for you there.

Hate to say it but I find a reason to be on the surface everyday with my UD PC's.
However I don't always do it.
There's a ton of RP going on due to the population difference, these days there's hardly anything goin on in the UD.
One day I can hire some kivvil fools to buy me a lovely assortment of Surface scrolls only available on the surface,
another day I can have some Kivvil interested in selling me vials of their very own blood.
Gather information about organizations on the surface.

All without aggressively killing Surface PC's.
The only time My PC is forced to fight is when Surface PC's break the rules and Meta my PC by using Superman Vision to know my PC's race I do have to get my hands dirty and actually fight someone.
cause you know, Drow KOS.

So would you say I should be discouraged in continuing what I consider top-quality RP exploiting Surfacers to do my whim because I flash a bit of coin at them?

[samb123]

@professiondude:
Sounds to me like you're satisfying the following rule: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36831

– Surface/UD Travel!
-You can be on the other side, but have some roleplay reason to be there (not just an excuse to grind or PvP). races from the surface and the Underdark, respectively, are not permitted to live on the other side without DM approval. Expeditions to the other side have a clear set start and end period for a particular objective with the character returning to it's home setting after the period is over. Stating that you are there to defeat such and such creature, or to test your skill is not a valid RP reason, that is grinding. We also do not consider general exploration, or Drow raids on the surface as a valid RP reason, although such can be fodder for DM moderated events. Please PM the team regarding this.

Valid RP reasons outside of the above are defined widely and do not require prior DM approval. Examples include meeting another PC to trade, or to RP over religion, or to establish contacts with another guild. We would ask however that you are able to state your reasons when a DM asks and abide by any decision that is made. Please note that it is not valid to grind once the reasons for travelling to the surface or Underdark are complete. Stating that you are meeting a PC in Sshamath to acquire via trade rare and valuable items is a valid reason but grinding afterwards with your trading partner is still grinding. Both surface and Underdark races are permitted on Upperdark maps and full RP outs are required to initiate PvP (no KOS on Upperdark maps). If slain in PvP on the "other" side you may be issued a permastrike as a result.

We also ask that players are respectful of the setting given the leniency of these rules. On the surface NPCs should be regarded as universally hostile to Underdark PCs and so maps with NPCs should be avoided where possible without DM supervision. In the Underdark, the peculiarities of Sshamath's lore should be respected and the Underdark itself should be considered a dangerous and hostile place. While we wish to facilitate roleplay between surface and Underdark we do not want to erode the setting and so may intervene in RP that is immersion breaking.

You have a definite reason to head to the surface and (presumably) return to the UD when done. What's the issue?

[aaron22]

ok. DG good point and that is fair enough.

my guild has a orc of leadership in the UD but most of the players are surface. and surface orc lore has them with much care of the surface with very little to no care for the goings on in the UpD or UD. so many(99.9%) of my missions take place on the surface and if i give a mission to said UD orc he gains nothing and sometimes what it is i am wanting has everything to do with drops. for example troll heads or orc chief head. this is just one example of how this can have an affect on me and players i associate with. i am sure there are many others like us taking on a mission of his choosing down there.

i am pretty sure that "loots and grinds" are not gonna stop anyone from helping a guildie, but it will sit on the head of the one asking because they know that typical rewards will not be there. most likely it will keep them from asking at all.

[professiondude]

Drow shouldn't even be wanting to go to the surface without a very clear goal. Not just "exporation". << to quote DeathGrowl.


Exploration in my eyes is a very fine reason to want to visit the surface,
You can't generate RP if you don't explore at first.. If a drow wants to visit the surface to explore, let em.
However if they use this excuse and pvp bait then there's an issue with the player, not the race.
At that time a DM team should be notified and a mark should be made.

However you would need great evidence that they are "baiting"
I suggest video evidence. Shadowplay is a wonderful tool.

Give them marks and make it apparent by notifying them you're giving them strikes that can lead to a lengthy ban. (this should apply in all issues with pvp junkies no matter drow or not.)

Limit these aggressive pvp junkies individually and don't create more ways to make it harder for us to enjoy RP on the surface.

[NegInfinity]

There's also a point that people just seem to ignore entirely here.

The definition of "proper" is subjective and that's the problem.

It can lead to situation where rather than playing people spend their time being judgemental and incorrectly guessing somebody's motivation.

Extreeeeemely rare. There's the sun. The distance. The dangers that ought to be in traversing the underdark and even getting to the surface.

Adventurers themselves are rare. People on the server represent less than 0.1% of populace.

So for the people who are against the rule, that has been in place for many years, how do you address that? How do you lower the amount of drow characters (or other underdark characters) waddling around on the surface for no logical reason? Or do you simply not approve of the lore?

In my opinion, non-DM should not attempt to rule lawyer in the settings. It creates extremely unpleasant and hostile atmosphere, and ruins the setting for you and other people. Rather than trying to wear a DM hat you should try to inquire what is going on or react according to your character's belief. When you start reacting "but they shouldn't be there because setting say so" you're squandering an opportunity to react with your character, and utilize OOC knowledge. Which is not right.

Basically, do not tell others how they should play their characters.

None of this would be needed if the individual rule breakers were punished for breaking the rules that have been in place forever here.... then the rest of us do not have to suffer for it.

^^^Also this.

But the rule that has been in place forever is to not grind and loot on the other side. The enforcing of that isn't punishing "the rest", simply because "the rest" isn't supposed to be doing it either. What am I missing here?

You're missing the spirit of RP server. IC action should lead to IC consequence, that includes rules. The script wall mechanic is not an IC consequence.
If you go to other side and get killed by paladins, that's great.
If you go to other side and your character magically is unable to find any itmes and gets no XP, this is ... very silly. At best.

[NegInfinity]

I suggest video evidence. Shadowplay is a wonderful tool.

OBS Studio also works quite well. 1 hour of gameplay result in roughly gigabyte of video, so it is tolerable.

[NegInfinity]

Also, does anyoine actually remember baldur's gate the game?

http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Viconia_DeVir

[Flasmix]

I see another point being ignored here, Upperdark is part of Underdark lore-wise, yet there's a rule that imposes Upperdark as neutral zone. Another is that UD races are kill on sight in every single surface cities/towns. Yet, the biggest city in UD (Sshamath), surfacers are not KoS. Talk about the huge disparity here.

So using the same argument, Surfacers should be Extreeeeemely rare in Upperdark. So we should lessen the surface playable toons then in the Uppderdark area?

It's interesting how people hide behind the reason of rules and lores, yet when something is against their interest they are quite bending of it. As understandable as it is, it is clear that this mechanic change does not fix its intention to lessen the PVP aggression which seems to be the root of the problem prior the implementation of the system.

I would say, come play a dedicated UD toon and see the problem yourself. It is easy to watch from the ivory towers of surfacers, not notice the growing problems in the UD. There are people who are trying to make it great and I applaud them as they do not get enough credit.

Dude, you don't know what it used to be like. Imagine the Underdark without the Upperdark added on. You know what you have there? You have what we had to deal with until 2 years ago. For 7 years, all we had to do was kill Duergar, Duergar and more Duergar after you reach a certain level. The Oghrann ruins got added in and we got a small change of pace, a new area.

Now, up until this time, we didn't have any Drow on the surface. The Netherese Maze was EXTREMELY hard to travel through and thus it was extremely rare to get up top. The Upperdark was added in as a neutral meeting ground, where both the surface and Underdark could meet and socialize without any KoS rules. After 7 years, we finally got something new, something we could go to! It was exciting! We had a place where we could meet up with surfacers and actually RP.

My Orc Wirg, being an Orc, could go both to the surface and UD. I started doing business for Bregan D'aerthe on the surface because obviously, you don't want a Drow going up there. It was a great time!

Then in the past year, more and more Drow started to abandon the Underdark to go live permanently on the surface. With the UD now being near abandoned, people stopped logging on as most of the Drow were now RPing primarily on the surface. Deathgrowl had a Drow longer than you've been on the server. He was a member of Bregan D'aerthe before the days of the Upperdark.

All this is, is a showing of the times. The players have lost any respect for the rules we have, the leniency the staff has shown. The reward for it all is complete and utter disrespect for the staff. To be given a foot and to then further demand a mile. We never had what we have now, you came into the server after the truly terrible times and you even went ahead and insulted a person who's been in Bregan D'aerthe longer than you. Someone who's been in the Underdark for longer than you and you know what? They stayed in the Underdark.

I fully agree with Aspect of Sorrow at this point on what we should do with the UD.

[Israe]

Something that has been failed to be mentioned, that would of likely made this much more clear is that if a surface drow app was approved you get a feat enabling so and loot on the other side. But the app has been very loosely enforced on living there in general. And as a result to excesses it makes it harder for the approved one to accomplish any type of goals there period.

[Empoweredfan]

This conversation is all over the place it seems, but mostly still civil. So please stop accusing each other of saying things that isn't being said. Because this is starting to become as off topic as a bad political debate.