Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Steve wrote: What I am trying to do is show

I do not have this impression based on your behavior.

I already put sufficient effort in explaining my position and reasons, and you still somehow manage to find a way to misinterpret them (to the exact opposite, none the less), then I believe it is not my fault.

I do not have eternity to spend arguing on this topic.

Which is why I'm politely asking you specifically to live this thread alone.

There's no reason new characters should have to start at 1. Many PnP adventures are specifically designed for characters of a higher level, and when players do not have characters of that level they are typically allowed to create one automatically at that level. What is required is that any character who starts at a higher level has the background experiences to match it.

BGTSCC is a campaign designed for characters of epic levels (though with the caveat that we are no higher than 15 for in-universe purposes). As I said before in this thread, I actually think that with such a high level cap new characters should be started far higher than level 1, with areas balanced accordingly. Characters in a DnD campaign should be roughly similar levels of each other so that huge discrepancies in ability to participate don't exist. And since a lowering of the cap won't happen, a raising of the starting level would be more appropriate.



As far as RCR goes, lol at the suggestion that 'two weeks is the sweet spot'. No, two weeks is essentially no change from what we have right now. Are people seriously RCRing more than once every two weeks as it is? The hell do you need to RCR that often for?

As far as I'm concerned, a 100% RCR is needed no more than once every six months, if that. And such a change should be for the purpose of minor alterations to a character to account for RP developments (major changes only if sufficient RP storylines have occurred to warrant major changes), or for the purposes of retiring a former character to start a new one.

I've RCR'ed a handful of times myself in this period, though I've not changed anything except for slight adjustments to skill point distribution, class levels (the debate between 3 Thauma levels, 5, or none), and spells (and as a shaman, being able to swap my spells known is supposed to be a class feature, so I don't even consider this an RCR alteration), in an effort to better represent the concept that I've been playing. Not to make a complete and total alteration to what the character is. The free 100% means I can spend more of the time testing the build directly in-game instead of via JEGs/NWN2db, but that's a simple quality of life thing and hardly necessary. I'd hardly be bothered once it goes away.

NegInfinity wrote:So it is NOT a "let everyone start at level 30" (I would appreciate if people stopped trying to pull this particular strawman).

Ah, but for some players every character can start at level 30... Which is the point.

NegInfinity wrote:There's matter of RL issues and life commitements. Or, to put it bluntly, "memento mori".

I don't think that this is relevant. Nothing stops you RPing at level 1 and nothing stops you having fun at level 1. You seem to consider that there are some sort of dues paid by grinding a character to level 30 and now you should be able to have any character you like at level 30 for evermore. If only RL was like that, eh? I was a champion tiddleywinker, so that means you put me straight at the top table in a Poker championship.

NegInfinity wrote:In the same fashion one could argue that a new character should have no gear or gold.

Indeed you could. I'd certainly argue that there should be an RCR equivalent. In reality the reason there isn't is probably because it would be impossible to police.

NegInfinity wrote:Or that learning a language must be roleplayed in RL-time for several months before it is granted (that was one of the insane rules I saw on Arelith. The result? Everybody grinds anyway, using silliest excuses to make a group). Or that rest should take 8 RL hours.

However these are straw men. They're not the same thing at all. And you know it.

NegInfinity wrote:As I said before, regardless of your starting level, it will take some time to integrate character into server and even become recognized.

You said it, but I have seen the opposite. I'm certain that it's true for some, but some characters have somehow hung on to their identity through countless RCRs...

NegInfinity wrote:I care about atmosphere on the server and meeting believable/interesting characters. Starting level does not contribute much to that.

And I quite agree with you. However this is not an argument for 100% RCR.

NegInfinity wrote:The XP rate, however, in my opinion seems to be affecting the "atmosphere" negatively, because "drone grinders" aren't that uncommon. Or people that fish all the time. Etc, etc.

And I agree with this as well. My preferred solution would be to make levelling, particularly Epic Levelling, easier and restrict RCR, or even remove it completely.

Rhifox wrote:There's no reason new characters should have to start at 1. Many PnP adventures are specifically designed for characters of a higher level, and when players do not have characters of that level they are typically allowed to create one automatically at that level. What is required is that any character who starts at a higher level has the background experiences to match it.

BGTSCC is a campaign designed for characters of epic levels (though with the caveat that we are no higher than 15 for in-universe purposes). As I said before in this thread, I actually think that with such a high level cap new characters should be started far higher than level 1, with areas balanced accordingly. Characters in a DnD campaign should be roughly similar levels of each other so that huge discrepancies in ability to participate don't exist. And since a lowering of the cap won't happen, a raising of the starting level would be more appropriate.

1. Some people like playing low level characters. Do you wish to prevent their enjoyment?

2. We are not characters in a DnD Campaign. A Campaign is for a small party. THere are those of us trying to replicate such a party at this time, but the whole server cannot be equated to such a Campaign and therefore your point is simply not valid.

Thorsson wrote: 1. Some people like playing low level characters. Do you wish to prevent their enjoyment?

No, they're free to play low level characters or ask DM to delevel them if RcRd results ends up being too high.

Thorsson wrote: Ah, but for some players every character can start at level 30... Which is the point.

Sigh.
See my post from before. I don't care what level someone is, as long as the char is interesting.

Thorsson wrote: and nothing stops you having fun at level 1

There's a lot that can stop me specifically from having fun at level 1.
Once you've seen ins and outs of most dungeons and know how it goes, it'll get old fast.

Thorsson wrote: You seem to consider that there are some sort of dues paid by grinding

They ARE dues you need to go through before you get to the point where things start interesting. Which is not level 30, by the way. (why are you guys so hung up on level 30 anyway?)

Thorsson wrote: You said it, but I have seen the opposite. I'm certain that it's true for some, but some characters have somehow hung on to their identity through countless RCRs...

I do not do that, and if someone wants to keep their character around forever and can't think of alternative, that's their problem, not mine.

In my experience, if you RCR into new concept, it takes time to get recognized/known. Recognized means "someone saw you once", by the way. The higher the level - the longer it takes to get known.

Thorsson wrote: And I quite agree with you. However this is not an argument for 100% RCR.

It is, because I see it as means of improving the atmosphere and increasing character variety.

Thorsson wrote: And I agree with this as well. My preferred solution would be to make levelling, particularly Epic Levelling, easier and restrict RCR, or even remove it completely.

And your solution would kill the server.
I think you're underestimating RL commitement. People that can make amazing characters tend to have jobs. See how well ALFA fares.

Thorsson wrote:1. Some people like playing low level characters. Do you wish to prevent their enjoyment?

Well if it was up to me the server would have a cap of 10 to 15 and a starting level of 3 to 5 or so. And I play a fairly inexperienced character (by background) myself. I like playing low level characters.

But this server doesn't equate character levels properly anyway, considering we are definitely not Epic Characters in-character. Level 30 characters on BG are level 15, in-universe, according to DM comments on this forum. So raising the starting level I wouldn't see in any way preventing low level characters, if low level character is to mean 'an inexperienced character'. Whether starting at 1 or 10, a character just starting on BG is an inexperienced character. We are, afterall, all playing what amounts to city adventures, with the occasional plot being region wide, which makes most of us pretty low level adventurers regardless of our char sheet.

Honestly, 30 cap is just a mess, IMO.


Point on the campaign thing.

I fail to see what real life commitment has to do with RCR. We all have RL commitments. There's not even a commonality about those with level 30 characters; some have taken years to get there. Some have grinded there way there in a few months (and boasted of it on these boards).

A level 30 character isn't necessarily an amazing character. It means he got a certain amount of XP. It's a purely mechanical recognition. Some of the characters may be amazing. But then they get RCR'd! This is an argument for RCR? You surely must be kidding. I've met some amazing characters with less than 10 levels in my time here. I don't think you need 30 levels to be an amazing character.

Does RCR improve character variety? Far from it. Since the change I see far more characters running around with fairy lights than previously. 100% RCR has led all these people to become CL30 casters. Where's the variety there?

Thorsson wrote:I fail to see what real life commitment has to do with RCR.

Basically, it goes like this:

With limited playtime:

Starting at level 1 and going to level 30 for me is viable if it can be done in 40 to 120 hours. Then I would kill off the concept and start over. That would also require decent gold source (there isn't one to my knowledge, at the moment), and sane equipment prices from PnP.

The point of RCR100% is to reach the level you find comfortable, and adventure there, most likely without ever advancing the level (well, you could hope for it, but realistically you would expect it to never happen). My level 18 character from the last year recently advanced to level 19. It took four weeks and I had to run those damnable quests once.

And even that was most likely too much time spent playing (I think I would need to cut the time 4x..5x times). So, if you do the math, advancing to level 30 at this rate will take from 2 to 10 years (if I reduce playing time as I wanted). I do not treat games as THIS kind of commitment. Sure, if preserving same character through the years is fune for you, go ahead. I do not find this entertaining. See, there are at least 30 different concepts I could try out. That would take me from 60 to 300 years.

This is the root of the issue. So, yes, I treat this as dues. I had a lot of lowbie chars, so I no longer enjoy it. I also remember few times where I tried a concept, it didn't work out, and I had to re-roll it back with a loss. How does triple-rcr sound to you? It is a major pain and it is completely unfun.

Those kind of concerns were voiced before many times, and as far as I can tell, they're mostly ignored. I remember meeting a fairly interesting dwarf that said "I'm stuck on level 10 for two months". I also remember several people quitting due to low progression. They included an absolutely amazing Orcish Druid which I really enjoyed partying with.

So the "keep 100% RCR" was offered as a compromise - so once someone is done with the "rite of passage" (meaning their XP proves that they have been around, know how to behave/act and what the whole server is about), they can try different concept without being punished for that. The system is active now, and it seems to be working well, as far as I can tell. Once the initial rush ended, and people stopped rcring 50 times per day, I now see more characters I didn't meet before, they have personalities, and the world feels more alive compared to the times where you could wander aroudn for two hours without finding anyone to interact with because they were all grinding giants or nagas and you couldn't approach the area.

As some other poster said, 100% rcr is the best thing that happened to this server. Which is why I proposed to keep it.

Thorsson wrote:It means he got a certain amount of XP.

Thorsson, you're hung up on level 30, and seem to be forgetting that your level determines options available to your character. Level 20 can visit larger number of areas than level 1, without getting slaughtered.

NegInfinity wrote:Those kind of concerns were voiced before many times, and as far as I can tell, they're mostly ignored. I remember meeting a fairly interesting dwarf that said "I'm stuck on level 10 for two months". I also remember several people quitting due to low progression. They included an absolutely amazing Orcish Druid which I really enjoyed partying with.

I agree, and I was one of these people - my first toon 'Garrett' was so messed up I wanted to start again, but having put so much time into him (level 11) going right back down to 5 - 6 was demoralizing and because of that, I quit - that was 4 years ago and I've only recently come back. I do not think this is an uncommon story either.

Bottom line is this: The community is very thin, we all know that; as it was pointed out we have rules, and rules are an important part of how the server works; however - rules that punish players for taking a wrong feat or selecting a wrong stat (easily done) is not fair.

Does that mean players should have full rein on RCR, and be able to change from elf, to human to barbarban to cleric? ...Maybe, for character developlemt and RP this could work; but it should be done on a request only basis. However, I see no reason why a player can't make 'small' ajustments to their toon so they are happy, if they are happy; the server is happy - because it is the players who keep it so.

The RCR was the best thing to ever happen, and I agree - look at the results; everyone is happier with their characters, and people feel safe; I've muled for a good 6 - 8 people and they were all very greatful to be given that chance to 'fix' their flaws.

As I said before, I followed a build that was great and fun - but didn't 'fit' and I found it difficult to RP Manah; having fixed that I love playing Manah now! Its easy to say: "Well you should CHECK your build first" but the reaility is, we all (humans) make mistakes, and this put up or shut up attitiude is very unhealthy. Do we really want to make this server painful for new comers? It drove me away once, and I'm sure I am not the first, or the last.

Could the RCR do damage to the server? Yes, yes it can - but it all depends on how it is implanted. Going back to 50% RCR; while allowing for 100% RCR tokens (must be requested) is a good way to do this, and simple (it is already in place)

I think the argument agaist this is focued on the damage it could do - but what they fail to see; is that if this is done in a proper manner it can only do good things for this server and the community.

Any major damage the RCR is doing, is going on right now - I didn't notice anything, did you? If you ask me the difference in atmosphere now, and from 3 months ago - I would tell you that the only thing different is the moral of the community, people are happier.

NegInfinity wrote:

Steve wrote: What I am trying to do is show

I do not have this impression based on your behavior.

I already put sufficient effort in explaining my position and reasons, and you still somehow manage to find a way to misinterpret them (to the exact opposite, none the less), then I believe it is not my fault.

I do not have eternity to spend arguing on this topic.

Which is why I'm politely asking you specifically to live this thread alone.

So, you are now saying that, contrary to your last posts, you no longer can find ways to say the same thing that subjectively improves your experience of BGTSCC, but does little to actually improve role-play?

My responses to your statements is a behavior upheld in order to shed light though the holes in your arguments for an 100% RCR, even if your slight modifications are added (which again, benefit your needs, not the Servers needs).

If you did not want others to look at your OP proposal and take it apart for how badly structured it is, for a host of reasons—not to mention those stated by Narshe, Maecius and QC members who essentially stated IT WON'T STAY 100% RCR FOR EVER—then maybe you should have posted it to Questions for DMs, or sent to the DM Staff privately.

Look, I doubt this will have any influence on your perceptions, but personally, I'd love to see the 100% RCR stay. It's like free candy, no danger, no risk, no hardship, no challenge, no skill involved gaming. What could be more fun than that? Okay, I'm being a bit sarcastic, but the truth is that 100% RCR is great to have, but is doing nothing be setting up a future were every Player is playing a level 30, eventually, forever. Even Thorsson will get there, eventually, in that future. And then even He won't have anything to complain about!!!

The previous setup of 50% RCR to lvl 20 had a quality to it. It meant that RCRing was a careful decision, and one not done just because one "deserved it" by "earning their dues." It meant that if a Player had a level 30 that they tired of, if they used that to "start over," they would still have plenty of room to advance, to gain experience, to develop the Character, EVEN if just through the Epic Levels (whether or not they are truly considered epic levels, or just /2 ).

Ask yourself what the 100% RCR was meant to provide, in the first place? It was, as I understand it, to allow those Players who's builds would turn to total shit in the update, the opportunity to fix their Characters to "fit" the new paradigm of skills, Feat and most importantly, bug fixes.

But what the 100% RCR has turned into is an opportunity for many Players to take boring old lvl 20s up to level 30s, and just swap to something new.

Related to what you said many times earlier, that does not directly contribute to interesting concepts, or interesting RP, or even a greater investment in the general RP of the Server. You can say it does until the cows come home, but show me the proof? All it does, for sure, is allow a Player to infinitely tickle their fantasy character build urges, without have to make any effort for it to be realized.

Experience Points gained for particular PCs does not equal eternal credits from which Players can make an infinite number of character concepts. But that seems to be what you are truly arguing for.

Just remember to keep it calm guys, I know this is an important topic to alot of us; disagreements are only nature - as we are all human and think differently.

Look, I doubt this will have any influence on your perceptions, but personally, I'd love to see the 100% RCR stay. It's like free candy, no danger, no risk, no hardship, no challenge, no skill involved gaming. What could be more fun than that? Okay, I'm being a bit sarcastic, but the truth is that 100% RCR is great to have, but is doing nothing be setting up a future were every Player is playing a level 30, eventually, forever. Even Thorsson will get there, eventually, in that future. And then even He won't have anything to complain about!!

I understand what you are saying Steve; and agree (as a lot of people have said already) the RCR should not stay - as it is now, also - the team have already said it won't be staying, that is fact.

What I am saying (and I'm sure a lot agree with me on this) is the RCR feature should be used to 'fix' any errors,flaws or glitches on a character or be used for character progression i.e. If you are a fighter and join a temple, becoming a holy warrior - you should be allowed (over time) to become a cleric, paladin etc... relevent to your character; furthermore if feats glitch or break through updates, or you simple pick the wrong one - a request for RCR would give us all that little extra secuirty. But this should be done on request only basis via the token system.

I agree with you that 100% free reign RCR is not the best way to do it; but the for element of moral, saftey and secuity it should stay - but not as it is now.

Steve wrote:...

I'm done explaining the same thing over and over. I really tried, though.

You're going to my ignore list for a while.

Have a nice day.

NegInfinity wrote:

Thorsson wrote:I fail to see what real life commitment has to do with RCR.

Basically, it goes like this:

With limited playtime:

Starting at level 1 and going to level 30 for me is viable if it can be done in 40 to 120 hours. Then I would kill off the concept and start over. That would also require decent gold source (there isn't one to my knowledge, at the moment), and sane equipment prices from PnP.

The point of RCR100% is to reach the level you find comfortable, and adventure there, most likely without ever advancing the level (well, you could hope for it, but realistically you would expect it to never happen). My level 18 character from the last year recently advanced to level 19. It took four weeks and I had to run those damnable quests once.

And even that was most likely too much time spent playing (I think I would need to cut the time 4x..5x times). So, if you do the math, advancing to level 30 at this rate will take from 2 to 10 years (if I reduce playing time as I wanted). I do not treat games as THIS kind of commitment. Sure, if preserving same character through the years is fune for you, go ahead. I do not find this entertaining. See, there are at least 30 different concepts I could try out. That would take me from 60 to 300 years.

This is the root of the issue. So, yes, I treat this as dues. I had a lot of lowbie chars, so I no longer enjoy it. I also remember few times where I tried a concept, it didn't work out, and I had to re-roll it back with a loss. How does triple-rcr sound to you? It is a major pain and it is completely unfun.

Those kind of concerns were voiced before many times, and as far as I can tell, they're mostly ignored. I remember meeting a fairly interesting dwarf that said "I'm stuck on level 10 for two months". I also remember several people quitting due to low progression. They included an absolutely amazing Orcish Druid which I really enjoyed partying with.

So the "keep 100% RCR" was offered as a compromise - so once someone is done with the "rite of passage" (meaning their XP proves that they have been around, know how to behave/act and what the whole server is about), they can try different concept without being punished for that. The system is active now, and it seems to be working well, as far as I can tell. Once the initial rush ended, and people stopped rcring 50 times per day, I now see more characters I didn't meet before, they have personalities, and the world feels more alive compared to the times where you could wander aroudn for two hours without finding anyone to interact with because they were all grinding giants or nagas and you couldn't approach the area.

As some other poster said, 100% rcr is the best thing that happened to this server. Which is why I proposed to keep it.

Thorsson wrote:It means he got a certain amount of XP.

Thorsson, you're hung up on level 30, and seem to be forgetting that your level determines options available to your character. Level 20 can visit larger number of areas than level 1, without getting slaughtered.

I made level 22 for the first time today. The lower levels aren't exactly much fun to visit at that level, so am I actually any better off than I was at level 10? If you continually 100% RCR level 30s you're never going to experience the fun at low levels.

What I see above is that it's too hard to level, which I agree with. That's not the same as RCR. All RCR does is make the pain less for people who've already had a character, and all 100% RCR does is take more of the pain away for those people only. And these people already have a big advantage through muled gear.

No, I say it again. What needs to happen is that the peculiar belief that it's virtuous to make it so painful to level should be done away with. That's a much better solution than 100% RCR, because it's inclusive. It will help encourage new players to stay.

No, I say it again. What needs to happen is that the peculiar belief that it's virtuous to make it so painful to level should be done away with. That's a much better solution than 100% RCR, because it's inclusive. It will help encourage new players to stay.

I wholly agree with this thought process however it has been said time and again that the staff is fine with the leveling at present. In fact the same people pop up on any thread that tries to rectify this through solutions and effectively troll it until getting locked and gets tucked away to never be thought about again until we come to it again the next year.