Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[arakes99]

That's a big nerf to a lot of builds, not just the FvS. Paladins, BG's and others would suffer a lot.

I'd rather just see a rule that says no EDM on FvS than this. We don't let monk and druid mix, no reason an FvS should be allowed this game breaking combo either. It really is the easiest, most balancing fix. With that in place we would buff up a few other classes in minor ways and really narrow the gap without completely screwing anyone that wants to keep FvS or any other EDM builds.

Like Mentalist said, even without EDM you can still make a perfectly viable FvS.

[fearknight2003]

You have got three base classes (Favoured Soul, Bard and Druid), and a minor pantheon of prestige classes below them (Weapon Master, Dwarven Defender are definite, etc - no prestige class should make a base class redundant, they are meant to be the 3.5 ed version of class kits) that are so out of line with everything else, that these classes ruin the game for anyone who wants to play anything else.

You either bring everything else up to match these few select erroneously favoured arch types, who never should have had dominion over all others, and ruined it for all others. Or you nerf these few down to be in line with the rest, and make the field of play fair.

If nerfing is the route decided on (none of this is ever going to happen) then after this we would be done with phase one and can move on to the Bard and then the Druid, and then the offending Prestige Classes.

Druids, at least, aren't that tough. All the PvP my druid has gotten into involving characters of around the same level ended with the druid losing. One of these was a sorcerer, one was a weird hidey-thingy, and one was a samurai-thingy.

[Garn Greymoon]

Please keep in mind FS has no turn undead. To make matters simple create a restriction that states FS may not multi class with cleric and if taking pain or black guard must have a min. Of 5 or 10 levels.

If the devs see EDM bring a server wide culprit it maybe justifiable to scrutinize it across the board.

In any case clerIc dip with fs seems a bit odd to me. It's be like taking wiz and sorc. It's to cheese the domain festures.

[Boddynock]

Changing Divine Might to properly reflect it's 3.5 Pen and Paper counterpart would probably be just as good.

As per; http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/compl ... index.html

As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to add your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage for 1 full round.

That's it, one round. None of this rounds = to Charisma Bonus crap. They had that in earlier 3.0 versions but nerfed it once they saw how OP it was. If we want to take more of a match pen and paper approach, that would fix a lot of the issues.

Eh, not sure I can get behind this idea. PNP sessions usually involve a handful of encounters with a handful of mobs. Some entire campaigns have less than a dozen combats total. Our online version of D&D is more MMO like, a single event can consist of hundreds of monsters (I have counted) so I don't think that sort of change takes into account the differences between PNP and what we have.

[Steve]

...the many divine powers of a favored soul make members of the class quite powerful. Despite these powers, favored souls are often hindered by a sense of inescapable destiny that surrounds their births. They didn't choose their paths and may not want anything to do with their religion. In this way, the powers of a favored soul can be a burden rather than a blessing.

Take the description. Give them a burden.

[NegInfinity]

Changing Divine Might to properly reflect it's 3.5 Pen and Paper counterpart would probably be just as good.

As per; http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/compl ... index.html

As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to add your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage for 1 full round.

That's it, one round. None of this rounds = to Charisma Bonus crap. They had that in earlier 3.0 versions but nerfed it once they saw how OP it was. If we want to take more of a match pen and paper approach, that would fix a lot of the issues.

That'll kill a lot of builds, including one of mine. Also, there are several versions of divine might. One is in Complete Warrior, and the other one is in Defenders of the Faith which is "charisma bonus per rounds".

It is also worth keeping in mind that Epic Divine MIght feat described here:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp? ... /20031115a

Is supposed to STACK with Divine Might (up to 3x charisma modifier), while neverwinter 2 implementation replaces it.

Meaning you're already using a nerfed version.
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I think the best idea would be application-only, and not trying to "nerf" anyone.

[grymhild]

I believe that Defenders of the Faith is D&D 3.0, while Complete Warrior is D&D 3.5

also the original Epic Handbook is also D&D 3.0

which is probably why there is a difference

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Druids, at least, aren't that tough. All the PvP my druid has gotten into involving characters of around the same level ended with the druid losing. One of these was a sorcerer, one was a weird hidey-thingy, and one was a samurai-thingy.

That's less a fault of the class, and more upon the player. Tzi for example was early 20's full Druid, and was capable of two shotting unsuspecting characters with tremendous amounts of regen and heal resiliency with saves in the mid 30's.

[Zeland]

I say put the resources towards making other classes better, instead of nerfing the good ones. This gives people more options if they are trying to power build or solo bosses. There are so many awesome classes that dont get played because they are under powered. Why not just fix that?

I quite enjoy how Favored souls work mechanically.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Why not just fix that?

Constant power creep, I think. Make Neverwinter Nine Great Again.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Why not just fix that?

Constant power creep, I think. Make Neverwinter Nine Great Again.

As stated before. If given the options of nerfing 1 class or buffing 30+ and rebalancing all content you must consider the workload. Think about it. The QC, DM's, admins, programmer, etc are all volunteers. At the end the results are identical. So why make everyone else RCR just so characters of one class won't have to?

[Selande]

EDM nerf is long overdue anyways. Doesn't matter about whether FVS or whatever is the current concern.

[sweetlikesplenda]

I haven't read through more than a few posts on this ginormous thread, so I'm not really sure what the feelings of the community are towards nerfing the class, removing it, or making it application. But, after playing my main character (Only character really, as I never really got in to playing any others at all) for almost 5 years and actually role-playing a FS, rather than going around and steam rolling the server or whatever people think all FSs do, I'm not sure I will be returning. Not sure if anyone actually cares about that or not.

After so many years of role-playing and developing him on this server, having him lead guilds, involvement in story lines, and involvement in DM/player-run/server-wide events, I am not interested in rebuilding him in to something he isn't. I have played Aaron for 8 years now, between my time here and on a NWN 1 server, where he was first created (Aaron 1.0!). I love the character, which is why I have not given him up and retired him and start a new character after so long of playing him. So, again, not really sure where the conversation is going in this thread, as I cannot go through and read 13 pages of posts and remember who all said what, but if the class gets wrecked or removed (Which seemed to be a main focus point in the few posts I did read), Aaron and I are probably out of here.

I'm not trying to cop a fit or get some sort of special treatment. But, the people who do play the class and have for a long time and have based a lot of RP of their character around the class and abilities, but are more focused on RP rather than face-stomping over everything or stealing the spot light in DM events, are going to be miffed. I'm not interested, personally, in starting a new character or completely changing who my PC is and thus nullifying years and years of role-playing him.

Again, not angry at the conversation, and if I end up going because of this I plan to go quietly. But, just my thoughts on the change suggestion.

[Zeland]

sweetlikesplenda: I agree. I have spent so much time building and rping my fs to what he is today, it would not be worth having to completely restart on his backstory and current story, just because of some stat change. Also you become so accustom to playing a pc a certain way, if something changes, us effected would pretty much have to relearn how to play the character again. Not saying I would quit the server for good, but defiantly not continue as a fs.

From what I have read people seem to understand that favored souls are not the only op class. My experiences in pve and pvp an fs is not some ridiculous power house, I have been beat many times from a variety of other builds that are similar lvl. Any bard or wizard would destroy my fs in pvp. So what is really the problem? pve? because there are also many classes that could do the same as a fs in a dungeon or boss fight.

I think the best option right now for qc is to try and change the description and name of the favored soul class, to help people rp and understand the lore of the class a little more. And for you who want the class removed I could only suggest us who have played the class for so long get grandfathered in. This however seems unfair to new players who would want to make a fs.

[AC81]

I quite enjoy how Favored souls work mechanically.

Of course! Everyone does! Mechanically these things are beasts and nothing short of the White can bring them down in pve. Even then, they are an essential part of a party (or even duo) that is needed for killing the White.
PvP they have some weaknesses, not many though and they really should only lose PvP by running, never by actual death. They have natural counters to Bards (silence and sonic immunity) and they can just outlast dragon druids. Wizards probably don't have the staying power to beat a FS with quicken mantles and SR. Sorcerers should beat FS's and HiPSters might beat a careless FS.
The nerfs proposed (change casting stat to wis) is a good one because it makes a FS choose - they don't get to have their cake and eat it too, just like other classes. I'd also like to see the number of spells per day dropped. This would reduce buffing capabilities and therefore strength. I'd also drop one save to low, maybe reflex. Even with those changes, FS will still be the best 'all rounders' on the server, their spell book is that good. Leave everything else alone, feats, skills, everything. Keep backstory and class description as is and then hold players of FS's accountable. I think this is the most balanced suggestion and easiest to implement.
Calls to not nerf but instead increase power levels of all other classes is silly. That will promote power creep and is just impractical. DnD isn't meant to be balanced.
Like I said earlier, if I had my way this class would be removed but that truly isn't fair on players who have devoted time to their FS PC's. It is also counter to what we are trying to do here on BG. DM app only would be my second option but that also is unrealistic due to the threat of favouritism. So that leaves us with the nerf option. Nerfing must be done so as not to effect other classes. You can't nerf EDM because EDM isn't the problem with FS's and nerfing EDM would hurt other classes. Changing the casting stat is the single most effective nerf to FS's. It will weaken them, but not to a point where they are unplayable and it won't effect other content.
Surely this option is the best ....