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Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:29 pm
by aaron22
Flasmix wrote:I fully agree with Aspect of Sorrow at this point on what we should do with the UD
for the ZERO that it is worth. i agree as well
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as far as the total disrespect for the rules and leeway granted by the admin. this is where i still stand on punish the offenders not the whole. how are the offenders going to respect the rules when the punishment is handed out to everyone. from my humble perspective, it is more of the same leeway but in the form of punishment. the actual offenders can feel a bit of companionship in the punishment because the whole server is being punished. singled out and shown the error of their ways to the whole is brutal, but effective.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:32 pm
by Israe
I said what aspect said a while ago and got slammed for it lmao. I still think that.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:39 pm
by NegInfinity
Flasmix wrote:adobongmanok wrote:
I see another point being ignored here, Upperdark is part of Underdark lore-wise, yet there's a rule that imposes Upperdark as neutral zone. Another is that UD races are kill on sight in every single surface cities/towns. Yet, the biggest city in UD (Sshamath), surfacers are not KoS. Talk about the huge disparity here.
So using the same argument, Surfacers should be Extreeeeemely rare in Upperdark. So we should lessen the surface playable toons then in the Uppderdark area?
It's interesting how people hide behind the reason of rules and lores, yet when something is against their interest they are quite bending of it. As understandable as it is, it is clear that this mechanic change does not fix its intention to lessen the PVP aggression which seems to be the root of the problem prior the implementation of the system.
I would say, come play a dedicated UD toon and see the problem yourself. It is easy to watch from the ivory towers of surfacers, not notice the growing problems in the UD. There are people who are trying to make it great and I applaud them as they do not get enough credit.
Dude, you don't know what it used to be like. Imagine the Underdark without the Upperdark added on. You know what you have there? You have what we had to deal with until 2 years ago. For 7 years, all we had to do was kill Duergar, Duergar and more Duergar after you reach a certain level. The Oghrann ruins got added in and we got a small change of pace, a new area.
Now, up until this time, we didn't have any Drow on the surface. The Netherese Maze was EXTREMELY hard to travel through and thus it was extremely rare to get up top. The Upperdark was added in as a neutral meeting ground, where both the surface and Underdark could meet and socialize without any KoS rules. After 7 years, we finally got something new, something we could go to! It was exciting! We had a place where we could meet up with surfacers and actually RP.
My Orc Wirg, being an Orc, could go both to the surface and UD. I started doing business for Bregan D'aerthe on the surface because obviously, you don't want a Drow going up there. It was a great time!
Then in the past year, more and more Drow started to abandon the Underdark to go live permanently on the surface. With the UD now being near abandoned, people stopped logging on as most of the Drow were now RPing primarily on the surface. Deathgrowl had a Drow longer than you've been on the server. He was a member of Bregan D'aerthe before the days of the Upperdark.
All this is, is a showing of the times. The players have lost any respect for the rules we have, the leniency the staff has shown. The reward for it all is complete and utter disrespect for the staff. To be given a foot and to then further demand a mile. We never had what we have now, you came into the server after the truly terrible times and you even went ahead and insulted a person who's been in Bregan D'aerthe longer than you. Someone who's been in the Underdark for longer than you and you know what? They stayed in the Underdark.
I fully agree with Aspect of Sorrow at this point on what we should do with the UD.
And once again, it is all about drow and not UD.
All things considered, it looks like a good idea would probably be to make drow application only, like red wizard, and maybe restrict then go non-good alignments as well.
Then add the "no spell resistance on surface" thing.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:46 pm
by Flasmix
We don't reveal offenders to the public. If someone does something bad enough to get banned, it's discussed behind closed doors and quietly taken care of. People often don't know unless the banned person talks about it, same goes with disciplining PC. Public shaming isn't something that's ever been done.
And again, I must ask... How does preventing grinding on the other side go after people who aren't breaking rules? They are, by in large, breaking the rules if they want to grind and loot.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:58 pm
by Empoweredfan
For the next people to comment here, please read Flasmix's last post. Because that is basically the the answer to this debate.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:18 pm
by aaron22
Flasmix wrote:We don't reveal offenders to the public. If someone does something bad enough to get banned, it's discussed behind closed doors and quietly taken care of. People often don't know unless the banned person talks about it, same goes with disciplining PC. Public shaming isn't something that's ever been done.
i know you don't.. well i guess i should say i very much figured as much.
And again, I must ask... How does preventing grinding on the other side go after people who aren't breaking rules? They are, by in large, breaking the rules if they want to grind and loot.
this doesnt apply to all and i know that. what i will speak on is personal as this is what i am most familiar. i don't know how it is for everyone else.
anyway. because dm attention is low (almost void) for orc RP, i take it upon myself to use the AI and environment to create quests and scenarios for players in my guild. keep something moving for each one to progress with. stories if you will. this is great and sometimes requires a group effort in stages. well my guild consists of not just surface, but UD orcs and it is still ebb and flow with participation (expected and not complaining). i cannot hand out xp so without too much detail, this is a big handicap. it is when you also have a bigger story and you will need to add things that dont belong in the story. or it segregates us now into two factions that further cripple a group that historically struggles.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:28 pm
by Flasmix
Aaron, you know I love Orc RP. If you submit a request asking for an event for your guild, I can start looking into something for the Orcs. Events usually don't fall in people's laps most of the time. The one I'm doing with CK now, it was discussed about for a month before hand.
Most events are done by people requesting something. Just keep that in mind.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:31 pm
by NegInfinity
Flasmix wrote:We don't reveal offenders to the public. If someone does something bad enough to get banned, it's discussed behind closed doors and quietly taken care of. People often don't know unless the banned person talks about it, same goes with disciplining PC. Public shaming isn't something that's ever been done.
And again, I must ask... How does preventing grinding on the other side go after people who aren't breaking rules? They are, by in large, breaking the rules if they want to grind and loot.
You emerge from the cave, see the sun for the first time in your life. Eventually disorientation and dizziness passes, and you manage to make sense of your environment.... and follow tracks of some creature, only to be accosted by a pack of surface animeals, likes of which you haven't seen.
You learn nothing from the encounter.
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This is, to put it bluntly, insulting.
When you have an RP reason to go somewhere, overcome high dangers along the way, survive by a miracle, and for all your effort the game spits in your face.
That's how I see it.
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By the way, alternative options have been proposed, and so far people continue to stubbornly ignore that: The issue seem to be only related to drow (and not UD) and grinders (and not everybody else), and proposed measure punishes everybody for no reason, instead of dealing with specific people who break the setting.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:58 pm
by aaron22
i know you would and i am sure that other DMs feel the same way. i have just built a foundation upon not needing DMs for everything. i have made requests and it is typically us that falters. the ebbs and flows. as someone who is fairly good at creating stories (not saying they are good stories), i should use this and ask a DM when the time is right. but only when it is needed.
i am not complaining. the rule is in place and i will adjust. one of the good things about orc status was that being unaccepted in both the UD and surface we were actually a part of both. this script just adds another term of acceptance that orcs will have to endure to go along with all the other handicaps.
yes i know. i am the worst recruiter ever. wanna join the tribe anyway.. PST.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:56 pm
by adobongmanok
NegInfinity wrote:Flasmix wrote:adobongmanok wrote:
I see another point being ignored here, Upperdark is part of Underdark lore-wise, yet there's a rule that imposes Upperdark as neutral zone. Another is that UD races are kill on sight in every single surface cities/towns. Yet, the biggest city in UD (Sshamath), surfacers are not KoS. Talk about the huge disparity here.
So using the same argument, Surfacers should be Extreeeeemely rare in Upperdark. So we should lessen the surface playable toons then in the Uppderdark area?
It's interesting how people hide behind the reason of rules and lores, yet when something is against their interest they are quite bending of it. As understandable as it is, it is clear that this mechanic change does not fix its intention to lessen the PVP aggression which seems to be the root of the problem prior the implementation of the system.
I would say, come play a dedicated UD toon and see the problem yourself. It is easy to watch from the ivory towers of surfacers, not notice the growing problems in the UD. There are people who are trying to make it great and I applaud them as they do not get enough credit.
Dude, you don't know what it used to be like. Imagine the Underdark without the Upperdark added on. You know what you have there? You have what we had to deal with until 2 years ago. For 7 years, all we had to do was kill Duergar, Duergar and more Duergar after you reach a certain level. The Oghrann ruins got added in and we got a small change of pace, a new area.
Now, up until this time, we didn't have any Drow on the surface. The Netherese Maze was EXTREMELY hard to travel through and thus it was extremely rare to get up top. The Upperdark was added in as a neutral meeting ground, where both the surface and Underdark could meet and socialize without any KoS rules. After 7 years, we finally got something new, something we could go to! It was exciting! We had a place where we could meet up with surfacers and actually RP.
My Orc Wirg, being an Orc, could go both to the surface and UD. I started doing business for Bregan D'aerthe on the surface because obviously, you don't want a Drow going up there. It was a great time!
Then in the past year, more and more Drow started to abandon the Underdark to go live permanently on the surface. With the UD now being near abandoned, people stopped logging on as most of the Drow were now RPing primarily on the surface. Deathgrowl had a Drow longer than you've been on the server. He was a member of Bregan D'aerthe before the days of the Upperdark.
All this is, is a showing of the times. The players have lost any respect for the rules we have, the leniency the staff has shown. The reward for it all is complete and utter disrespect for the staff. To be given a foot and to then further demand a mile. We never had what we have now, you came into the server after the truly terrible times and you even went ahead and insulted a person who's been in Bregan D'aerthe longer than you. Someone who's been in the Underdark for longer than you and you know what? They stayed in the Underdark.
Once again, the missed point there is that not to remove Upperdark in neutral zone area, but rather increase the neutral zone area over the surface area. Since it is "lore-wise" acceptable to have many surfacers running around in the Uppderdark which is considered Underdark, it should be acceptable as well to have many drows running around near Soubar area in return.
If I have insulted someone with my remarks, I won't apologize since I have backed it with reason and logic.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:11 pm
by Steve
"Many Drows" around Soubar is just not Lore-supported. I am all for promoting RP between Players, and really, the Upperdark was this big fat addition to the Server for where the Middledark and the Surface characters could meet and do whatever RP they need to do, under some semblance of Forgotten Realms lore.
The Upperdark should be dangerous, seriously dangerous, but alas, a combination of Low CR areas and limited NWN2 engine mechanics, make it only remotely so.
The Middledark should be dangerous as in "expect to die there" unless born there. This has been said so many times now!
Lowerdark is just impossible!
The Surface should be like the Middledark for ALL BEINGS BORN OF THE UNDERDARK. One should remember that it took Drizz't YEARS to be able to adjust to the Surface. Right now, it just takes "making a level."
But the Surface cannot be inherently so, since it is mechanically limited by CR.
The only thing left, after trying to teach with Lore and trying to teach with hand-slaps and trying to add OOC Rules is mechanics designed to dissuade and prevent what wasn't learned. That sucks, yes, but what else is left?
I mean, maybe what can be done, instead of taking away the Loot/XP from being on the "other side" is to have Othersiders auto-receive a YUUUGE penalty, like Light Blindness on Speed, and Darkness Suffering on Speed, so that while possible to do your OtherSide runs, you're actually seriously crippled...like how it should be in Lore outside of our limited game mechanics.
How about that?
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:15 pm
by Deathgrowl
Steve wrote:Light Blindness
White screen and 10 fire damage per round during day time! "Ach! The sun! It buuuuuuurnsssssss!"
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:17 pm
by adobongmanok
Steve wrote:I mean, maybe what can be done, instead of taking away the Loot/XP from being on the "other side" is to have Othersiders auto-receive a YUUUGE penalty, like Light Blindness on Speed, and Darkness Suffering on Speed, so that while possible to do your OtherSide runs, you're actually seriously crippled...like how it should be in Lore outside of our limited game mechanics.
How about that?
If Daylight Adaption counters/lessens the effect, should be fine. It'll be weird that you have adapted to Daylight, and you still suffer due to it.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:26 pm
by Flasmix
adobongmanok wrote:Since it is "lore-wise" acceptable to have many surfacers running around in the Uppderdark which is considered Underdark,
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Upperdark
It was here where the surface dwellers and those in the Underdark most often meet.
It is lore appropriate.
Re: Game Mechanics Discrimination
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:04 pm
by aaron22
Flasmix wrote:adobongmanok wrote:Since it is "lore-wise" acceptable to have many surfacers running around in the Uppderdark which is considered Underdark,
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Upperdark
It was here where the surface dwellers and those in the Underdark most often meet.
It is lore appropriate.
***needs citation***