Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2021)

[yyj]

These changes are great, I hope they are implemented as they are, motld is ridiculous and it has been proven time and time again that it's been deserving of a nerf.

[EasternCheesE]

While i understand that many would find MotLD ripped and ruined because it lost 1 attack, it opens possibilities for other things. Paralyze your enemy and you have way higher chance to land a blow, thus, even more attacks. Kill an enemy with a single usage of ability and it saves you 5 more attacks.

Sure, if you like current MotLD which, currently, takes nothing from Monk but only adds AC, saves and death abilities, you see it as nerf.
But this kit has always been overpowered compared any other kits existing. Every kit loses something for their progression as the kit, be it spellcasting, abilities or some base-class features. MotLD doesn't take away anything that monk has and adds it's own things on top.

While i see why people complain about greater flurry being removed and having AC not stacking with tortoise shell, we are not talking powerbuilds here. If you plan is to make a Mary Sue type of PC who goes bashing left and right dumping 20k gold cost on elixirs, it's obviously a nerf for you.

If you want "Long death" part of "monk" representing actually something aside from "such AC, much good wow", now it went further from being "monk on top of monk" and made it's steps to it's own separate route of a person, who learned to break, kill, torture and mastered death while not swinging em hands 24/7 for 10 years in your PC backstory.

It made it step from "meh powabuild" to it's own RP path where being MotLD makes one different to just monk.
It may be not perfect step, but guys, Rome wasn't built in one day. Today we did a change, later we do more changes if needed, that's how things grow and develop. What i really want from you as a QC and a player is to try it, give us constructive feedback, point strong and weak points. Then, we find the balance in cooperation rather than making "rip class" remarks.
Us spilling acid towards each other is just... Pointless, we are not in PvP situation here.

[yyj]

I have seen the power of pure Wis monks and they are still some of the most powerful characters on the server, MotlD isn't really losing much from these changes honestly number crunching the way it is, it's really not losing much numbers, plus now you have a free amulet slot that you don't need to have as nat AC now which compensates the loss.

There's a 100% rcr right now so you can change your build still, I can safely say today that I can go and make a Wis monk and it will be stronger than 90% of the characters that I already have...This is more of an adjustment than a nerf and saying that the class is deas after this a big exaggeration.

[EasternCheesE]

While i understand that many would find MotLD ripped and ruined because it lost 1 attack, it opens possibilities for other things. Paralyze your enemy and you have way higher chance to land a blow, thus, even more attacks. Kill an enemy with a single usage of ability and it saves you 5 more attacks.

Sure, if you like current MotLD which, currently, takes nothing from Monk but only adds AC, saves and death abilities, you see it as nerf.
But this kit has always been overpowered compared any other kits existing. Every kit loses something for their progression as the kit, be it spellcasting, abilities or some base-class features. MotLD doesn't take away anything that monk has and adds it's own things on top.

While i see why people complain about greater flurry being removed and having AC not stacking with tortoise shell, we are not talking powerbuilds here. If you plan is to make a Mary Sue type of PC who goes bashing left and right dumping 20k gold cost on elixirs, it's obviously a nerf for you.

If you want "Long death" part of "monk" representing actually something aside from "such AC, much good wow", now it went further from being "monk on top of monk" and made it's steps to it's own separate route of a person, who learned to break, kill, torture and mastered death while not swinging em hands 24/7 for 10 years in your PC backstory.

It made it step from "meh powabuild" to it's own RP path where being MotLD makes one different to just monk.
It may be not perfect step, but guys, Rome wasn't built in one day. Today we did a change, later we do more changes if needed, that's how things grow and develop. What i really want from you as a QC and a player is to try it, give us constructive feedback, point strong and weak points. Then, we find the balance in cooperation rather than making "rip class" remarks.
Us spilling acid towards each other is just... Pointless, we are not in PvP situation here.

I really don't want to spill acid at all even if it sounds like it. My character is a monk of the long death and his build is basically calculated to the limits to be like that and you know it because you've seen it.

True part, divinate loses smite evil, crusader loses spellcasting, hunter loses spellcasting. Long death loses greater flurry, adamantine fists, and no longer ac stack so I'd say that 99% of MOTLD builds are ruined with these changes so it's only natural we ask when are the changes going up so everyone can do what they think is the best option. In my case, since it's my main character because all my vault is him and a bunch of lvl 1 characters, I'd like to know to delete it because it won't be him anymore.

One big thing we need to take into account is that MotLD remained broken on many aspects giving way more than it should have. And i don't speak of not losing monk stuff with Motld at all. So, what i say below is related to how MotLD was intended to be vs the recent change and not Current Broken Implementation.

Speaking mechanically, MotLD did lose ability to get 9 natural AC with Tortoise + freedom of movement combo while retaining her 3 Macabre AC. Come on, do you really just go and drink 7k worth of elixirs before every fight and you do it all the time? In return, she received 6 passive natural AC which is near to impossible to get with any other class/spells (aside of tortoise, of course) and it's undispellable. It is just there. No feat investment, no spells cast. Just plain 6 natural armor and free amulet slot for whatever you want to put here.
Then MotLD loses their 7th attack, but gets ability to try to do ~dc 30 paralyze every minute. Have you ever seen Assassin with >26 DC on death attack that didn't sacrifice half of their cons to get it?
On top of that, 5 minute CD no save instadeath ability that is not blocked by deathward... That's a complete death sentence to half the builds on server in PvP once their HP bar goes to half.

Yeah, kit maximum AC was trimmed. But it's minimum AC was increased as well.

[Theodore01]

Speaking mechanically, MotLD did lose ability to get 9 natural AC with Tortoise + freedom of movement combo while retaining her 3 Macabre AC. Come on, do you really just go and drink 7k worth of elixirs before every fight and you do it all the time? In return, she received 6 passive natural AC which is near to impossible to get with any other class/spells (aside of tortoise, of course) and it's undispellable. It is just there. No feat investment, no spells cast. Just plain 6 natural armor and free amulet slot for whatever you want to put here.
Then MotLD loses their 7th attack, but gets ability to try to do ~dc 30 paralyze every minute. Have you ever seen Assassin with >26 DC on death attack that didn't sacrifice half of their cons to get it?
On top of that, 5 minute CD no save instadeath ability that is not blocked by deathward... That's a complete death sentence to half the builds on server in PvP once their HP bar goes to half.

So you're saying it gets both ACs +3 and +6 now ?

The loss of adm. fist, is what breaks the kit for any fister, as we don't have (working) gloves with a material component to overcame dam.resistance.

Death attack requires to be out of combat, doesn't it ? So now the kit requires a dedicated sneaker build to work also .....

[izzul]

would love to test this with my svirf or grey orc monk

please give a date when it will be implemented and if its asap.

for normal PVE monk, i dont want MotLD since its not Lawful Good hence cannot use Holy Sword wand.
It is to offset the low damage against fire giants(Cold Iron DR), Balor
and some special undeads Revenant, Death Knights (Alchemical Silver DR)

[EasternCheesE]

Speaking mechanically, MotLD did lose ability to get 9 natural AC with Tortoise + freedom of movement combo while retaining her 3 Macabre AC. Come on, do you really just go and drink 7k worth of elixirs before every fight and you do it all the time? In return, she received 6 passive natural AC which is near to impossible to get with any other class/spells (aside of tortoise, of course) and it's undispellable. It is just there. No feat investment, no spells cast. Just plain 6 natural armor and free amulet slot for whatever you want to put here.
Then MotLD loses their 7th attack, but gets ability to try to do ~dc 30 paralyze every minute. Have you ever seen Assassin with >26 DC on death attack that didn't sacrifice half of their cons to get it?
On top of that, 5 minute CD no save instadeath ability that is not blocked by deathward... That's a complete death sentence to half the builds on server in PvP once their HP bar goes to half.

So you're saying it gets both ACs +3 and +6 now ?

The loss of adm. fist, is what breaks the kit for any fister, as we don't have (working) gloves with a material component to overcame dam.resistance.

Death attack requires to be out of combat, doesn't it ? So now the kit requires a dedicated sneaker build to work also .....

1) So you're saying it gets both ACs +3 and +6 now ?
Sorry, i didn't get it. The things that are announced by Matelener will come live on next server update only. Currently, it has what it has.

2) The loss of adm. fist, is what breaks the kit for any fister, as we don't have (working) gloves with a material component to overcame dam.resistance.
But, you literally don't have them when you level MotLD to 10 anyway, you only get it after you progress monk again right now.
Though, i see the point here, while there are many other classes that don't use adamantine weapons and still can deal damage

3) MotLD death attack (while sharing same name with assassin one) is an active ability that you have to use on enemy as a full-round action to attempt to paralyse enemy. Enemy don't have to be flatfooted for it to work on MotLD.

[yyj]

Very few things have adamantine DR....Premonition and golems. Yes, so now MotlD is just a bit worse vs those enemies that you rarely ever fight.

[Theodore01]

3) MotLD death attack (while sharing same name with assassin one) is an active ability that you have to use on enemy as a full-round action to attempt to paralyse enemy. Enemy don't have to be flatfooted for it to work on MotLD.

Why not name it different then ? Death Strike or something.

[EasternCheesE]

I have seen the power of pure Wis monks and they are still some of the most powerful characters on the server, MotlD isn't really losing much from these changes honestly number crunching the way it is, it's really not losing much numbers, plus now you have a free amulet slot that you don't need to have as nat AC now which compensates the loss.

There's a 100% rcr right now so you can change your build still, I can safely say today that I can go and make a Wis monk and it will be stronger than 90% of the characters that I already have...This is more of an adjustment than a nerf and saying that the class is deas after this a big exaggeration.

I think monk of the long death is losing a lot with the greater flurry nerf because it's a kit that yes, grants a lot of things, but it also has a lot of skills blocked.

I'm pretty sure that yes, wisdom monk will still be very good. I could notice it when you recommended me Valefort's wisdom monk build from nwn2db when I started here and told me that the only rule against powerbuilding is 3b20, but I think is still a very big hit.

"I think monk of the long death is losing a lot with the greater flurry nerf because it's a kit that yes, grants a lot of things, but it also has a lot of skills blocked."
Getting monk 20/ motld 10 will not block anything from monk feats while adding MotLD stuff on top of it currently. That's another issue with the kit, it doesn't take away anything.

[Rhifox]

To be honest, I would have never made monk of the long death a kit but a PrC, losing 2 epic feats in exchange of the benefits of the class.

It is meant to be a PrC, but due to the way monk mechanics work it's not possible to make custom monk PRCs that progress monk abilities.

[Rain]

Oof, R.I.P motld

[izzul]

yeah, would be nice to know about the date of the change so we can test it.

[Theodore01]

hopefully NOT coming soon

[Kitunenotsume]

To be honest, I would have never made monk of the long death a kit but a PrC, losing 2 epic feats in exchange of the benefits of the class.

It is meant to be a PrC, but due to the way monk mechanics work it's not possible to make custom monk PRCs that progress monk abilities.

I am curious where the decision to give it an AC buff came from, since it's no part of the initial PRC outline: https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... eath.shtml

Hopefully having the initial template from the Player's Guide to Faerun will help context for someone.