SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

[NegInfinity]

I made level 22 for the first time today. The lower levels aren't exactly much fun to visit at that level, so am I actually any better off than I was at level 10? If you continually 100% RCR level 30s you're never going to experience the fun at low levels.

You can always make new level 1, when you feel like it, and play it for a while. I think I have at least three shelved level 8 characters.

Locations I personally find the most enjoyable seems to be within level 14..20 range.

All RCR does is make the pain less for people who've already had a character, and all 100% RCR does is take more of the pain away for those people only. And these people already have a big advantage through muled gear.

Not sure about that. Since (as I mentioned) I treat the obligatory painful leveling process as "paying dues", it is possible to treat already having a character as a proof that the person knows how to behave and what the server is about. Don't know whether it makes sense or not, but it is definitely possible to look at things this way.

As for muled gear.. the muled gear is here because equipment prices are inflated, gold and items are hard to come buy, which is, in turn a consequence of having overpowered homebrewed monsters everywhere.

No, I say it again. What needs to happen is that the peculiar belief that it's virtuous to make it so painful to level should be done away with. That's a much better solution than 100% RCR, because it's inclusive. It will help encourage new players to stay.

I agree with that, but the reason why suggested to keep 100% RCR is because it is less work than rebalancing everything and making things "right".

[NeOmega]

No, I say it again. What needs to happen is that the peculiar belief that it's virtuous to make it so painful to level should be done away with. That's a much better solution than 100% RCR, because it's inclusive. It will help encourage new players to stay.

I wholly agree with this thought process however it has been said time and again that the staff is fine with the leveling at present. In fact the same people pop up on any thread that tries to rectify this through solutions and effectively troll it until getting locked and gets tucked away to never be thought about again until we come to it again the next year.

No, it's not trolling.

It works like this:

What does everybody love and want on this server? XP, XP XP XP. Even the great RP'ers will ask for an XP refund if they feel something went wrong, game crash death, etc.

Secondly, what do people love secondly? LOOT, loot loot loot loot loot. Even the great RP'ers like good equipment.

So, naturally, what do some people seem to think would make them happier if it was easier to get? XP and loot.

It won't make you happier. It will make the rewards feel emptier. In Sigil, I read you can level to 30 in one day if you try.... ...yay!

Now, I have loved as much as the next guy taking my broken builds, and build which the character organically went a different way, and remaking them to represent how I felt they should have been, without XP penalty, especially since a couple had already been RCR'd at 50% penalty once.

But that doesn't mean one should be able to continuously recycle their XP to make a new level 30 character every week, or even every month, or even every year. It also makes it that hard powerful builds that take pain leveling to the power level, can now be built as an early powerbuilder, and then re-crafted into an even more powerful build, where all the weak low BAB classes are added first, then topped off with the various synchronicities.

And I've mentioned this before in this never ending discussion, once you have played for a few years, you will find, you can use the quest system, if done correctly, to hit level 10 in a weekend. Just do them as they were supposed to be done, and you will be getting 25 - 35 XP per kill, along with the quest bonuses.

[NegInfinity]

I made level 22 for the first time today.

Thorsson, if you never had a level 30, then you should try to powerlevel lvl 21 to level 30 at least once.

Then you'll understand why this thread exists. It is just that bad.

[NegInfinity]

In Sigil, I read you can level to 30 in one day if you try.... ...yay!

You can't. Don't believe every lie you read on the internet.

Sigil limits your maximum level based on your ECL (so ecl+1 will only reach level 29, while ECL +8 will only reach level 22). Gold is very hard to come by (merchants have 200 gold for buying items). Oh, right, although level 1 takes 1000xp for everyone regardless of their ecl, ECL affects your xp. So, as level 1 ecl+8 you'll need to fight level 8..10 monsters while having 10 hitpoints. You'll be swarmed often.

Sigil also does not grant direct RP xp for chatting and does not have fishing.
Chatting xp goes to XP pool, which doubles your combat combat xp, until the pool runs out.

Also, sigil has original xp rate from neverwinter 2. Still, geting to level 30 will take about a month there. It is a very different environment with much more dangerous combat.

But that doesn't mean one should

It does.
People have lives, and forcing them to sacrifice too much RL time for making a mistake does not sound right to me.

[Snarfy]

I made level 22 for the first time today.

Thorsson, if you never had a level 30, then you should try to powerlevel lvl 21 to level 30 at least once.

Then you'll understand why this thread exists. It is just that bad.

No, it's really not.

In the last year or so I've been leveling my alts religiously when not playing my level 30 main. Currently they are sitting at:

A level 26 fighter(getting his last 6 levels in the last 3 months) , a level 21 sorcerer, a level 18 ranger, a level 18 cavestalker(RcR'd under the 50% conditions), a level 14 bard, a 7 barbarian, a level 5 monk, and a level 4 cleric.

That's a combined 113 levels gained in a year and a half'ish, and most of that experience was gained via questing and RP. Just imagine if I had the desire to grind or fish at all! So, yeah. Nothing is wrong with the current system for gaining XP, other than perhaps the RP xp being a bit on the low end.

[NegInfinity]

No, it's really not.

In the last year or so

I have two level 30, both of them underpowered semi-RP builds, ECL+1 and one had multiclassing penalty in epics on top of that (before retiring and being rcrd into something else).

Yes, it is bad. Epic level experience was quite negative in general.

There's also matter of situations where you come up with concept you think is cool, waste a lot of time thinking about it, finally roll it out and realize that it simply doesn't work or doesn't "fly" in the setting. People don't react to it, or you overlooked something, etc. So you need to scrap it and take the hit. That as unfun as it gets.

other than perhaps the RP xp being a bit

It is the other way around. Slaying a naga will give you 15xp. *admires a rock* Will get you about 30..60 xp. Then there's the goddamn Devourer Worm, which always grants you solid 9 xp despite being as tough as Wormthrax.

[HappyDays]

On the subject of RP and RCR,

I had several toons, a lvl 30, 2xlvl 26s, and 3 lvl 11ish. These toons were dead, and I had for all intents and purposes stopped playing on BG. The RP was dead, and I was not up for the grind again.

The RCR allowed me to kill all but one of them off, and recreate them with RP/build concepts that were exciting to me. I play nearly every day now.

I do not think the server changes brought as many people back as the 100% RCR pulled people back.

[NegInfinity]

On the subject of RP and RCR,

I had several toons, a lvl 30, 2xlvl 26s, and 3 lvl 11ish. These toons were dead, and I had for all intents and purposes stopped playing on BG. The RP was dead, and I was not up for the grind again.

The RCR allowed me to kill all but one of them off, and recreate them with RP/build concepts that were exciting to me. I play nearly every day now.

I do not think the server changes brought as many people back as the 100% RCR pulled people back.

Yes, this.

I have similar situation.

[Bad Omens]

Hey, anyone have a link to the language bug issue?

[Planehopper]

On the subject of RP and RCR,

I had several toons, a lvl 30, 2xlvl 26s, and 3 lvl 11ish. These toons were dead, and I had for all intents and purposes stopped playing on BG. The RP was dead, and I was not up for the grind again.

The RCR allowed me to kill all but one of them off, and recreate them with RP/build concepts that were exciting to me. I play nearly every day now.

I do not think the server changes brought as many people back as the 100% RCR pulled people back.

My situation, exactly.

[Steve]

In fact the same people pop up on any thread that tries to rectify this through solutions and effectively troll it until getting locked and gets tucked away to never be thought about again until we come to it again the next year.

*raises his hand* Present!

But seriously, this statement falls short of describing the entire situation (or lack of a good situation).

You see, the "problem" with XP Gain Rate on BGTSCC—leveling in general—is not so much the low rate in grinding, nor the need to be religiously doing the Quests (done IC or OOC), or any particular "dissatisfying" method. It is that there are not ENOUGH VARIETY of XP Gain that directly supports/directs the Player to focus on role-play (though I for one do believe that RP can be had during adventuring/quests/grinding/etc....but few seem agree with me ).

One very real and particular reason for this is that there were 2 easy means to exploit the RP XP Chat system and the Fishing XP system. I have read these exploits were fixed by Rasael in some thread some time ago, but I do not know for sure if that is the case, currently (I haven't tried to test it...you can imagine why! )

But at the time the post was made that mentioned these fixes, it was well argued that the RP XP Chat system was improved, meaning firing more often, as well, that the Limit per Reset was increased. The Limit could even be considered for full removal, because since there is no limit on Grinding/Killing XP—which though not impossible is damn hard to do AND role-play vocal interaction with another Character in a duo or worse, a group—why limit the interpersonal, character development of our Toons via chatting?

Well...the argument still stands that "why should a Toon gain mechanical power, melee power, actually Ability score increases, when talking about pie, or dresses, or the skill in roasting marshmellows to the perfect golden brown?" I think that argument is still quite valid, which is why a I proposed that gaining XP should be filtered through some form of readily available NPC Guild training (in short: weekly, a PC can visit a Training Guild and "submit" their PC to training, gaining a pool of XP, such that could replace either the weekly Quest XP, or even just add to RP XP in general). A change to make some effort to related gaining Experience to the Skills/Feats/Abilties our Toons gain, which are 99% directed towards adventuring, combat, challenge and "winning."

But to end my response to Calodan's comment: many, many, many solutions have been presented and reviewed...but if you are unsatisfied with the the changes or lack of, then you should really bring your dissatisfaction up with those that can actually make a difference. When you're there, maybe ask them why nothing has been done, or why nothing IS being done about it?

I play nearly every day now.

I do not think the server changes brought as many people back as the 100% RCR pulled people back.

I do not think anyone has argued that the 100% RCR is NOT the cat's meow. But in being such a "great tool" given to the Players, one should ask what happens if it stays. And the 100% RCR staying is simply more about the reward to Players, versus the RP/reward/challenge/interest of our PCs. 100% RCR does nothing to improve the quality of RP on this Server, which is what this Server is about right? It does make Players more happy, and if that what the 100% RCR is about, then it worked, and it should stay. But that isn't what the 100% RCR was about:

Subject: 100% RCR AVAILABLE - for limited time

7Mar2016 Patch
- RCR NPC in Nexus should give 100% XP restore/transfer, for limited time only - dialog will indicate 50% but should get 100%. Take Screenshot before RCR in case you have problems.

The above is in place for a limited time only to allow players to RCR their PCs to make the most of the recent update.

It allows full RCR; full XP, and no level cap of 20. A level 30 character is recreated into a level 30 character.

We will announce in advance before this function is turned off (likely a week in advance); and it will not be turned off during this period of ironing out post update bugs!

Golem

Now that the recent Big Update is installed, and the "New Normal" is here to stay, the 100% RCR has served its purpose. Simply put, few seem to be willing to accept that!!

There's also matter of situations where you come up with concept you think is cool, waste a lot of time thinking about it, finally roll it out and realize that it simply doesn't work or doesn't "fly" in the setting. People don't react to it, or you overlooked something, etc. So you need to scrap it and take the hit. That as unfun as it gets.

This is a personal issue. By no means does it require the Server to change to fit the individual('s) problem(s).

...if you never had a level 30, then you should try to powerlevel lvl 21 to level 30...

Not what this Server is about! Nor should it ever become this! Though it is "allowed" to do this, what does powerleveling have to do with role-play?!? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Which is exactly the same thing as having 100% RCR for Eternity, on BGTSCC.

Though I have better things to do, I will continue to defend this position as long as Negs and others continue to promote a bad idea. I will defend better values to the bitter end! So I humbly ask the DMs to, once again, make their Will Be Known, and close this issue once and for all, with an Official Statement (even if it has already been stated more than 4 times).

[Thorsson]

On the subject of RP and RCR,

I had several toons, a lvl 30, 2xlvl 26s, and 3 lvl 11ish. These toons were dead, and I had for all intents and purposes stopped playing on BG. The RP was dead, and I was not up for the grind again.

The RCR allowed me to kill all but one of them off, and recreate them with RP/build concepts that were exciting to me. I play nearly every day now.

I do not think the server changes brought as many people back as the 100% RCR pulled people back.

The reason why RCR has brought people back is because (and Neginifinity is correct here) it is so painful to level up in Epics. I note that Snarfy's tale has precious few Epic levels in his 113 (5 in my count). I've never seen one good reason why XP should be so poor in those levels. But reaching 30 shouldn't be seen as any great achievement. In PnP campaigns when characters reach a high level they normally retire and you start again. You don't retire and get another Epic Character.

100% RCR is open to abuse. The only way around that is to put it under DM control and that creates work and I'd rather that DMs did other things than babysat people who chose a wrong Feat 10 levels ago.

I agree that 50% RCR is painful; I've RCR'd plenty, so I have sympathy for everyone that doesn't want to go through the re-levelling process; maybe it could be changed to 80% or something. The only thing I'd say for that is that I would ban RCRing under level 6 (say) if it was a high %. I can see at least two abuses that can be carried out with low level characters and high % RCR (and I don't even look for abuses, so there are probably more). Neither are huge, but my experience says that if there is the possibility of abuse then someone will think it is worthwhile.

[Thorsson]

...if you never had a level 30, then you should try to powerlevel lvl 21 to level 30...

Not what this Server is about! Nor should it ever become this! Though it is "allowed" to do this, what does powerleveling have to do with role-play?!? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Which is exactly the same thing as having 100% RCR for Eternity, on BGTSCC.

Indeed. However I will admit that I have spent an hour grinding when trying to level up an RCR'd character closer to the original level. An hour is about as much as I can take. And I've never caught a fish on BGTSCC (and only once IRL, because it's just as boring there).

I don't understand why people think you can only have fun at level 30. The adventure groups that were just formed show it's not only possible, but very easy, to have great fun from level 1, if you're playing D&D as it was meant to be played - adventuring and roleplaying while you do it.

RCRing level 30s has no purpose that I can see except for someone wanting to be megapowerful as a new character with no work. You could say that it's the very apotheosis of a power build!

[Rhifox]

if you never had a level 30, then you should try to powerlevel lvl 21 to level 30 at least once.

Why do people need to powerlevel 21 to 30?

I personally treat level 20 as a soft cap for my characters. Getting to 20 puts me within 10 levels of the typical long term character on BG, which allows me to participate alongside them without feeling significantly incapable. Honestly, level 20 is where I feel like a legitimately new character: I have the ability to engage in the main server plots alongside the major, established characters while still being able to acknowledge my place as a new player on the scene, and continuing to get the benefit of receiving experience from events and the eager awaiting for reaching a new level.

Levels 1-20 are the ones I don't care for, personally, because those ones feel like they're simply holding you back from the rest of the server until you pay the grinding tax. What tends to change this up is when people make legitimate efforts to spice up the low-level scene with initiatives like the adventuring groups, which is great and something that should be encouraged.

I do agree, mind, that exp shouldn't massively drop off at epic levels (especially when epic levels require so much more exp per level). I've heard there's some desire to actually discourage people from being able to level fast once they hit epic levels, which is just not right IMO. It is, ultimately, just a video game. It's something people want to do for fun.

But constant 100% RCR is not the way to go for that. My personal preference is still one 100% opportunity every 6-12 months. That lets people retire and start up new concepts from time to time, or make RP-inspired character changes, without encouraging quick-recycling and poor planning.

[NegInfinity]

However I will admit that I have spent an hour grinding when trying to level up an RCR'd character closer to the original level. An hour is about as much as I can take. And I've never caught a fish on BGTSCC (and only once IRL, because it's just as boring there).

I don't understand why people think you can only have fun at level 30. The adventure groups that were just formed show it's not only possible, but very easy, to have great fun from level 1, if you're playing D&D as it was meant to be played - adventuring and roleplaying while you do it.

RCRing level 30s has no purpose that I can see except for someone wanting to be megapowerful as a new character with no work. You could say that it's the very apotheosis of a power build!

Thorsson, you're stuck on "level 30" part of it, and ignore all the other levels. Also "you can only have fun at level 30" is a strawman that does not represent my opinion.

You won't have fun at level 30. In fact, you most likely have the most miserable experience on the server, because there will be very few people to interact/party with. Forget that level 30 exists. It is not what it is about.

The important thing is, that if you have level 20, and want to run another idea for a level 20, then thanks to the crazy idea that "leveling must be painful", you'll have waste Months to get to the point where you see if the idea even works as you thought it woudl, and then you'll be severely punished if you misunderstood anything. See limited time. And don't you guys try to pull that "but you should consult people on mechanical power and blahblahblah" argument. Ne0mega, for example, in another thread admitted that he didn't know about epic bonus feats. He played longer than me. I myself at the beginning made a mistake where I thought a sorcerer would get 5 spells every level (yeah, it is silly). The mechanics are big, complex, chance of a mistake is high. And honestly, what's the point of asking another person to make you YOUR character? That's not how it is "meant to be played".

Pugdush Koleck quit after getting to level 24. It was an amazing character and one of the most interesting orcs I met. The problem was leveling process.

I have no idea how many times I need to repeat the goddamn thing and what kind of argument I need to pull that you guys would finally GET it.

As for your "work" argument. It is a game. if it becomes "work", it is wrong. Someone who has level 30 already did a lot of work to get there. You have a lot of free time and enjoy going up from level 1? By all means, keep doing it. It doesn't mean the other people should play the game the same way as you do.

The changes from 100% rcr were positive, as far as I can tell. That's why I proposed that this system will stay.