Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Maecius Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:22 pm wrote:...unless it plays a serious role in the plot and its development as a story.

And thus, my point supported, once again, about Permastrikes in relation to Events/Campaigns. Thanks for digging that up for me Hoihe!!

And to that point a death or injury would make a significant role in a plot or story whether it is premeditated or not.

The simple aspect of thinking your mortality is at risk makes not only the event bigger but the RP surrounding it as well. Not only that, what you get to take away from it will be memorable. You survived event (x).

Would I still play? no.

Would it be great seeing how people react when powerbuilds hunt their characters that they have spent up to a decade playing down? no.

Would it be great seeing how people react when a DM spawns an unkillable super monster that wipes out everyone but powerbuilds? no.

Steve wrote:

Maecius Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:22 pm wrote:...unless it plays a serious role in the plot and its development as a story.

And thus, my point supported, once again, about Permastrikes in relation to Events/Campaigns. Thanks for digging that up for me Hoihe!!

aaron22 wrote:And to that point a death or injury would make a significant role in a plot or story whether it is premeditated or not.

The simple aspect of thinking your mortality is at risk makes not only the event bigger but the RP surrounding it as well. Not only that, what you get to take away from it will be memorable. You survived event (x).

The problem my friend is that many of these "It builds the plot!" are just forced there for no reason other than the DM's fancy.

Take for example when a friend of mine rolled a natural 20 on a strength check to avoid falling out of the Crow's Nest in a storm on the Wanderess, and the DM, in all his grand wisdom, decree that their character suffers a permanent muscle injury.

Mind you, Rogues get the ability to mutilate people's muscles and cripple people into paralyzed husks at level 10 with Crippling Strike. I always understood that to work by literally cutting tendons and fibers with the dagger or otherwise damaging them.

Now, (Greater) Restoration can completely heal you up from paralyzed husk whose only working muscles are the heart and the muscles around the lung into a fully working individual. But apparently, pulling your muscles a bit by staying on a ship in a storm and causing a tear can NOT be healed. Why can't it be healed? I quote the DM "Because real life medicine can't heal it and it is more tragic this way!"

Lófaszt. Said DM had a reputation for trying to force permanent mutilation on multiple characters, two of which were ignored as permanent and fixed as it should by the setting should allow fixing.

The so called "tragic" permanent muscle tear had given nothing to further the plot of a relatively simple voyage to Waterdeep. We already accepted that our characters, due to their injuries, end up indefinitely bed-ridden but will fully recover in a few weeks. That gives us RP and a feeling of impact. No need to take it beyond its relevance.

Is anecdotal evidence ever convincing? One unsatisfactory DM experience is hardly substantial enough to say it's "forced DM fancy" that will ruin a paradigm shift into consequences carrying peemastrikes, when in DM Events.

As was pointed out by Xan, any "fancy" that seems forced IS reason to challenge decisions via bringing the case to the Head DMs for review.

i would also wonder if that kind of treatment wasn't a "make up call" on some outstanding transgressions. no matter. while i value your thoughts hoihe, i can only take a story like that with so much validity as we are only getting a piece of the puzzle here. abuse by a DM is something to consider, but cannot be the basis of denial. I have more trust in all of them than that.

Amazing this is still going on XD.

I liked Flasmix approach of allowing people to decide wether they wanted to risk a permastrike or not and giving the incentive of better rewards for those that did... Not sure everyone would agree but I thought it was a good middle ground.

Hoihe wrote:

Mac wrote:Mac wrote:

Unless... you are speaking of strictly RP incidents. In which case the policy as I remember it was that perma-death generally rests in the hands of the player not the staff.

Xanfyrst

The permanent death rule says 3 strikes and you're out. For good. Players doesn't and shouldn't have any voice in it, though they can protest if they believe any of their strikes were given unfairly or by mistake, in which case the staff can review any evidence and/or talk with the DM who was present.

If it's all up to the players, then the rule is useless if not out right pointless. Or poorly written as it clearly says 3 strikes and bai.

I am sure it's happened at some point but perma-strikes are not generally given out for RP, (like they should be) They are mostly used as punishment for rule breaking. God modding guards being the most common. IE. Bentley would of stopped that fight so instead his guards killed you, enjoy the perma-strike. If they were used properly perma-strikes would be a badge of honor. A reminder of the time you tried that crazy RP and failed. Yet still live to tell the tale, At least for now.

Hence the decision to perma-death a character is almost entirely in the hands of the player. Which is as it should be anyhow.

Maecius Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:22 pm wrote:If a player does not want a permanent, long-term disability affecting their character, then it's not the place of any DM to give them one -- unless it plays a serious role in the plot and its development as a story.

Then having the rule is pointless and should be removed.

My issue with it that it creates a safety for characters to attempt stupid crap without any serious consequences. What keeps my character from attempting to kill the Dukes every Sunday in spite of being caught and executed each time? Actions should be accountable and have consequences, including permanently killing off character after 3 cases of warranted strikes.

Obviously, situations that can cause the DM team to hand out strikes should also have corresponding rewards for potential success. Not items, but... fame, influence etc.

Xanfyrst wrote:
Then having the rule is pointless and should be removed.

My issue with it that it creates a safety for characters to attempt stupid crap without any serious consequences. What keeps my character from attempting to kill the Dukes every Sunday in spite of being caught and executed each time? Actions should be accountable and have consequences, including permanently killing off character after 3 cases of warranted strikes.

Obviously, situations that can cause the DM team to hand out strikes should also have corresponding rewards for potential success. Not items, but... fame, influence etc.

How is being executed and not being resurrectable lore-friendly if the individual in question is a PC (who in Forgotten Realms are usually described as being at a fundamental level different from NPCs for being able to achieve levels above 5) and has enough motivation to try killing the dukes three times?

Because then, the adage of "well, their soul refuses the resurrection" doesn't exactly hold up.

One can only imagen the horror and strain on the mind of getting brought back to life over and over and over.

I think it would drive a person mad...Even in a magic world.

Being a PC should not be some sort of plot armor in and of itself. Lorewise, if someone dies, they can't just come back because they will it themselves. Someone has to want and be able to cast a raise dead or resurrection spell. Further, a deity has to grant that spell to the petitioner.

If the dead person in question has tried and failed to kill the dukes multiple times, his allies would eventually question whether it's worth it to bring him back again.

And even assuming his allies have all the gold, time, and energy in the world to continue resurrecting this PC ad nauseum, even the god would eventually stop and say "this is no longer worth my divine essence."

One can only imagen the horror and strain on the mind of getting brought back to life over and over and over.

I think it would drive a person mad...Even in a magic world.

even the god would eventually stop and say "this is no longer worth my divine essence."

I think this happened to almost all of my early char's. Especially in that damn Gnoll cave. Temples should offer a season pass or frequent customer discounts. Maybe something like that punch card you get at coffee houses and car washes. After nine resurrections the tenth is on us! Or a friends and family discount. Ress two dead friends, the third is free!

Easy answer: Absolutely yes.

More complicated answer: Yes, but only if we didn't count 'OOC' deaths like lag deaths, transition deaths, etc. I see progressing my characters without deaths as like a badge of honour.

if it is not lore compliant to be permanently dead than every FR fiction writer has been doing it all wrong in every novel. fact is death...DEATH is nothing more than an inconvenience. we are talking about death here.

aaron22 wrote:if it is not lore compliant to be permanently dead than every FR fiction writer has been doing it all wrong in every novel. fact is death...DEATH is nothing more than an inconvenience. we are talking about death here.

Lots of FR fiction writers take ridiculous liberties at times from lore to be able to tell their own particular story with that particular feel. This includes R.A. Salvatore