Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2020)

[gedweyignasia]

It seems pretty clear from the responses that players are still adjusting to these changes. If your old strategy is no longer viable, you will need a new strategy. That might mean less reliance on wands and potions if you can no longer grind through Hilltop Ruins to fill your purse. It might mean trading for items instead of using the Epic Shop, since gold is a bit less available and epic items are appearing more from chests.

The system has changed, and it will not be adjusted for some time so that players can adjust. Your best bet is to adapt to the new system and learn how to thrive under it. Read your posts and reflect on how you might improve things for yourself.

[Tanlaus]

I merely just wanted to share what I did from A-Z and how I felt afterwards. Correct however that the part about the wands is not a merit of claim.

However keep in mind I had to recharge the wand and when I did the price for it plus potions, scrolls, other magic devices, takes me to a negative. From what I made in that series of looting. Had I not needed to recharge a wand we looking only at about an 8k profit total.

That does not even amount to the effort and time honestly. I rather strong arm or blackmail someone it will have more fun in it. Please note I have no expertise regarding mechanics of this topic. Im just saying simply as a player who looks forward to logging in and catching some nice to awesome rp and spend a little time looting just to make sure I have enough ammos and potions and what not for the day. I am no longer feeling that I can only spend a little time looting. I fell I must beastmode every possible epic instance within ever reset to make a decent enough profits. That will lead to mindless looting and grinding. And quickly bring forth boredom. I have played numerous mmos, and im sure others can agree with me. When changing loot systems, its a very sensitive matter. In a mmo you have your merchants, you have your cashers and you have your farmers. (Glad BG don't have cashers.) Merchants need the farmers to bring product, farmers need the merchant to buy the product. Tippin that scale to one side causes problems.

I’ve been going through areas pretty extensively to look for possible issues in regards to chest balance. But for sure I have not hit every area or even half of them.

What level character have you been running around on and what areas?

Also where did he/she used to loot before the change?

I’ll try to look through both with level appropriate characters to see if anything feels really off.

[RagingPeace]

It seems pretty clear from the responses that players are still adjusting to these changes. If your old strategy is no longer viable, you will need a new strategy. That might mean less reliance on wands and potions if you can no longer grind through Hilltop Ruins to fill your purse. It might mean trading for items instead of using the Epic Shop, since gold is a bit less available and epic items are appearing more from chests.

The system has changed, and it will not be adjusted for some time so that players can adjust. Your best bet is to adapt to the new system and learn how to thrive under it. Read your posts and reflect on how you might improve things for yourself.

As a fighter focused non-spell casting build, I'm not sure how to manage without wands and potions... especially when I don't have evasion. If I lower the number of wands and potions I need, the gold will simply have to be used on heal potions (which... I guess are still potions...) or heal kits instead. Alternatively, I'll need to get someone to buff me every time I go somewhere with risk, which is most places.

[Hoihe]

It seems pretty clear from the responses that players are still adjusting to these changes. If your old strategy is no longer viable, you will need a new strategy. That might mean less reliance on wands and potions if you can no longer grind through Hilltop Ruins to fill your purse. It might mean trading for items instead of using the Epic Shop, since gold is a bit less available and epic items are appearing more from chests.

The system has changed, and it will not be adjusted for some time so that players can adjust. Your best bet is to adapt to the new system and learn how to thrive under it. Read your posts and reflect on how you might improve things for yourself.

As a fighter focused non-spell casting build, I'm not sure how to manage without wands and potions... especially when I don't have evasion. If I lower the number of wands and potions I need, the gold will simply have to be used on heal potions (which... I guess are still potions...) or heal kits instead. Alternatively, I'll need to get someone to buff me every time I go somewhere with risk, which is most places.

Perhaps the server could be rebalanced to accomodate a nonbuffing playstyle ?

Either by increasing CR or lowering enemy stats.

[RagingPeace]

Just did a few runs and wrote down my findings:

// Level 26

North, The reaching woods

1. Chest: 38 gold, Fluorspar

Buried Treasure: 299 gold

Skeleton: 50 x throwing axes (purple light), shortbow (+4 mighty)

Boss chest: 193 gold, greatsword (+1 EB, light bright: Purple, Mithral)
Boss drop: Book (Advanced abjuratives), scroll flamestrike (7), potion: false life, mace 1d4 piercing, 20 SR, 342 gold

Gnoll corpse (skeleton): 18 gold

Goblin corpse: 15 gold

Hidden stash: 722 gold

Amn, Cloud Peaks (Cloudpeakmountainpass)

Random drop: Dagger: +1 AC, AB vs Evil +1, Damage Bonus Electrical 2 and 72 gold
Random drop: 139 gold

1. Wormhole: 18 gold, Sapphire
2. Wormhole: 46 gold, bloodstone, potion of lesser vigor


Amn, Cloud Peaks Descent, Lizard cave

1. Skeleton: 91 gold
1. Crate: 42 gold, Full plate: (not enhanced), Amulet: +1 dex

Lizard boss: Scroll: Primal speed
Boss Chest: 38 gold, Hide Armor +2
Skeleton: Helmet: +1 AC, Light Dim Yellow, Spell Immunity: Grease

Chest: 35 gold, scroll: Searing Light, Healer's kit +1, Thieves Tools +10

Crate: Helmet: AC vs Bludgeoning +1

Random drop: Darts (50): +3 mighty


Consumables used:
2 x Keen from Whetstone,
1 x Improved Mage Armor (wand)
2 x Heroism potions
6 x Heal potions (nasty lizard shamans )

Frost giants Exterior
Chest: 892 gold, Fullplate: +1 AC, Improved saves mind +1, Material (Umber Hulk)

Frost giants Interior
Random Drop: Studded Leather Armor: +6 hitpoints, Improved Saving Throws reflex +1

1 Chest: 64 gold, raise dead scroll
2 Chest: 689 Gold, Potion of Owl's Wisdom, greater
3 Chest: 33 gold, potion of blurry eyes, Scythe: +2 EB
Bag of valuables: 44 gold, Scroll3: Feeblemind

Didn't do boss room too difficult

Consumables used:
4 x Heal potion
1 x Greater resistance (wand)
1 x Heroism(potion)
1 x Improved Mage armor (wand)
1 x Lesser restore (potion)
2 x least spell mantle (wand)

Sold for: 160 + 8 + 1400 + 738 + 235 + 35 + 22 + 100 + 15 + 1400 + 396 + 17 + 660 + 538 + 1400 + 991 + 53 + 41 + 90 + 1400 + 161 + 1400 = 11260
11260 + 3830 (gold found) = 15090
Heal potions alone: 7600
That's a profit of 7490

I haven't counted wand and potion usage (except heal potions of course) in this since I don't remember what I paid for them, but the profit is definitely lower with them included
I also did not include the mace I found since I thought it might sell for a little more on auctions, with some luck.

The frost giants were obviously a gamble since it's high CR for me but I didn't get any surprises, and naturally, I skipped the boss room.

These runs took me about 2 hours and some.

[Hoihe]

Swashbuckler 13 /Wizard 5 /Duelist 8 /shadowdancer 3

A ridiculously cheesy build that allows me to reach:

57 AC vs everyone (plus random +1/+2 AC from One weapon) without buffing
60 AC vs current foe (plus +1/+2 AC from One Weapon) without buffing
a comfortable 52 AC using Improved Mage Armor (50 without)
65 AC with buffing
Has a +2 EB 3 vampiric regen weapon
3 clickies to make healing cheaper.
Expose weakness
HiPS

Led me to losing over 400 HP to traps that ignore evasion , once forcing me to drink 2 potions of Heal (-2K gold).

And some 300 HP to frost giants and drakes due to having 35-38 AB, forcing me to cast Mirror Image and Improved Mage Armour (and switch from Shield rapier to vamp regen, thus also cast Shield). I could do this as I got 5 levels of wizard. If I was a pure swash, I'd have paid a bunch in wands.

The only reason I could solo this dungeon in fact was the combination of ridiculous cheese (Expose Weakness + HiPS on a tank build being exploited to the maximum), a stupidly rare item I acquired by random chance that is practically impossible to acquire (3 vamp regen), and the only reason it only cost me 2000 or so gold was due to hoarding items like Ring of Untherite generals, Mad gent's gloves and stupidly high AC (remember when 48 AC was enough to only get hit on 20 except for bosses?)


I have a modifier of 10 in Open Lock. I can afford this because I have a stupid amount of skill points and very high dex. It used to be more than enough for every chest. Now? I couldn't pick a single chest. I either dump my 30th level's skillpoints into Open Lock (and thus damage the veracity of my RP by diminishing my Lore Religion just to be able to do something while server is dead) or only go looting when I find a rogue. The Rogues I find tend to be highly incompatible with my character, and the one who are compatible I rather RP with rather than smack monsters to make gold to recharge my wands.


Results:

https://imgur.com/a/SOftoNK


Conclusion:

"I would be better off not logging in at all."

[yyj]

Well when you solo an area that is designed for party, don't get surprised if you don't profit.

And try not judging an area just in one single run. Maybe after running the same area 10 times you can get more accuraten stats.

[Snarfy]

11260 + 3830 (gold found) = 15090
Heal potions alone: 7600
That's a profit of 7490

These runs took me about 2 hours and some.

Ouch, I feel badly for builds that rely on consumables.

Your best bet is to adapt to the new system and learn how to thrive under it. Read your posts and reflect on how you might improve things for yourself.

Other than hoping you hit the rare auction item jackpot, there's really not many ways for players to adapt(please dont say "find a party"), consumables aren't cheap, and adventuring will require many players to use them. Given what I saw during my looting blitz, I almost immediately knew that this was where players were really going to feel the pinch, recent examples in this thread should give a clearer idea.

As for thriving... I'm a pretty experienced player, and if I can't even crack 90,000gp in a week of running 25 to 30+ epic zones, using minimal consumables(stealth ftw), how is everyone else going to fare?

[Hoihe]

Well when you solo an area that is designed for party, don't get surprised if you don't profit.

And try not judging an area just in one single run. Maybe after running the same area 10 times you can get more accuraten stats.

Issue:

Only areas I can go to for a chance of loot are cr 18 and above.

Spirit troll cave I can't judge for loot as I couldn't find chests before having to retreat due to high DR, crit immune spellcasters with Save or Die and evasion ignoring AoE DoTs.

Nahskel mines are likely not worth the effort considering it's 18 CR.

Reaching Woods might offer me something minor.

Serpent Hills is a very long time investment, although I can solo that without cost (only due to vampiric weapon)

Grey Peaks is worse than frost giants so it's an out.

Lizard cave is so-so whenever I tried.

Durlag's requires Restoration or Death Ward.

Frost Giants can solo but costs 2000 gold per last run.

[Tanlaus]

Swashbuckler 13 /Wizard 5 /Duelist 8 /shadowdancer 3

A ridiculously cheesy build that allows me to reach:

57 AC vs everyone (plus random +1/+2 AC from One weapon) without buffing
60 AC vs current foe (plus +1/+2 AC from One Weapon) without buffing
a comfortable 52 AC using Improved Mage Armor (50 without)
65 AC with buffing
Has a +2 EB 3 vampiric regen weapon
3 clickies to make healing cheaper.
Expose weakness
HiPS

Led me to losing over 400 HP to traps that ignore evasion , once forcing me to drink 2 potions of Heal (-2K gold).

And some 300 HP to frost giants and drakes due to having 35-38 AB, forcing me to cast Mirror Image and Improved Mage Armour (and switch from Shield rapier to vamp regen, thus also cast Shield). I could do this as I got 5 levels of wizard. If I was a pure swash, I'd have paid a bunch in wands.

The only reason I could solo this dungeon in fact was the combination of ridiculous cheese (Expose Weakness + HiPS on a tank build being exploited to the maximum), a stupidly rare item I acquired by random chance that is practically impossible to acquire (3 vamp regen), and the only reason it only cost me 2000 or so gold was due to hoarding items like Ring of Untherite generals, Mad gent's gloves and stupidly high AC (remember when 48 AC was enough to only get hit on 20 except for bosses?)


I have a modifier of 10 in Open Lock. I can afford this because I have a stupid amount of skill points and very high dex. It used to be more than enough for every chest. Now? I couldn't pick a single chest. I either dump my 30th level's skillpoints into Open Lock (and thus damage the veracity of my RP by diminishing my Lore Religion just to be able to do something while server is dead) or only go looting when I find a rogue. The Rogues I find tend to be highly incompatible with my character, and the one who are compatible I rather RP with rather than smack monsters to make gold to recharge my wands.


Results:

https://imgur.com/a/SOftoNK


Conclusion:

"I would be better off not logging in at all."

Get a pair of open lock rings and gloves, that’ll give you 11 more points. Should be plenty.

My rouge carries a full set of gear to swap on when he goes into the netherese ruins where lock DCs reach the mid 80s.

I also have 4 pearly white ion stones and 4 pairs of mad gents gloves. They pop up pretty cheap in the auction semi regularly. I tend to sell the extras I find now that way as well. Sounds like you have healing covered but I’m just reiterating this for others who may not be taking advantage of the x/day healing items.

Also, like yyj said, soloing the Frost giant keep is not an easy task. Yes there are a few very powerful builds that can run through it but that’s the exception not the rule. If you’re doing that without blowing through resources you’re in pretty good shape.

Loot-wise you’re still at the mercy of RNG but you’ve got more than double the chance of pulling epic items than you did before.

[Hoihe]

Swashbuckler 13 /Wizard 5 /Duelist 8 /shadowdancer 3

A ridiculously cheesy build that allows me to reach:

57 AC vs everyone (plus random +1/+2 AC from One weapon) without buffing
60 AC vs current foe (plus +1/+2 AC from One Weapon) without buffing
a comfortable 52 AC using Improved Mage Armor (50 without)
65 AC with buffing
Has a +2 EB 3 vampiric regen weapon
3 clickies to make healing cheaper.
Expose weakness
HiPS

Led me to losing over 400 HP to traps that ignore evasion , once forcing me to drink 2 potions of Heal (-2K gold).

And some 300 HP to frost giants and drakes due to having 35-38 AB, forcing me to cast Mirror Image and Improved Mage Armour (and switch from Shield rapier to vamp regen, thus also cast Shield). I could do this as I got 5 levels of wizard. If I was a pure swash, I'd have paid a bunch in wands.

The only reason I could solo this dungeon in fact was the combination of ridiculous cheese (Expose Weakness + HiPS on a tank build being exploited to the maximum), a stupidly rare item I acquired by random chance that is practically impossible to acquire (3 vamp regen), and the only reason it only cost me 2000 or so gold was due to hoarding items like Ring of Untherite generals, Mad gent's gloves and stupidly high AC (remember when 48 AC was enough to only get hit on 20 except for bosses?)


I have a modifier of 10 in Open Lock. I can afford this because I have a stupid amount of skill points and very high dex. It used to be more than enough for every chest. Now? I couldn't pick a single chest. I either dump my 30th level's skillpoints into Open Lock (and thus damage the veracity of my RP by diminishing my Lore Religion just to be able to do something while server is dead) or only go looting when I find a rogue. The Rogues I find tend to be highly incompatible with my character, and the one who are compatible I rather RP with rather than smack monsters to make gold to recharge my wands.


Results:

https://imgur.com/a/SOftoNK


Conclusion:

"I would be better off not logging in at all."

Get a pair of open lock rings and gloves, that’ll give you 11 more points. Should be plenty.

My rouge carries a full set of gear to swap on when he goes into the netherese ruins where lock DCs reach the mid 80s.

I also have 4 pearly white ion stones and 4 pairs of mad gents gloves. They pop up pretty cheap in the auction semi regularly. I tend to sell the extras I find now that way as well. Sounds like you have healing covered but I’m just reiterating this for others who may not be taking advantage of the x/day healing items.

Also, like yyj said, soloing the Frost giant keep is not an easy task. Yes there are a few very powerful builds that can run through it but that’s the exception not the rule. If you’re doing that without blowing through resources you’re in pretty good shape.

Loot-wise you’re still at the mercy of RNG but you’ve got more than double the chance of pulling epic items than you did before.

I'll try to carry lockpicking gloves/capes, however, that's -3 lbs I can carry. The healing clickies are a similar matter.

It wouldn't really be that troublesome if I could afford to get higher strength without dumping my charisma (which would lead to dumping my background feat, which holds RP relevance).

Presently, with my wands/weapons/potions/clickies I have 55 lbs and get encumbered at 90 lbs.

My class loses almost all its abilities (-2 AC, -7 damage) if I am encumbered.

And because the only really available dungeons are long ones far from traders, weight is even more of a concern.

[zhazz]

As for thriving... I'm a pretty experienced player, and if I can't even crack 90,000gp in a week of running 25 to 30+ epic zones, using minimal consumables(stealth ftw), how is everyone else going to fare?

I guess we all better start rolling some Con-locks for those solo loot runs to bosses



Jokes aside (although semi-serious too, maybe?), I think the new system is fine. It just needs some polishing and balancing. As has been requested repeatedly in this thread already, the lower value item/gold drops in a high loot bracket zone should be higher than the median for zones in a lower loot bracket. Thus allowing for some overlap, where a good roll in bracket 5 can still be worth more than a bad roll in bracket 7; but at no point can a bad roll in bracket 7 be worth less than the lowest roll in bracket 6.

Something along the lines of (for gold drops only!):
Bracket 1 — CR 0 to 3 — 25 to 75 gold
Bracket 2 — CR 3 to 7 — 45 to 110 gold
Bracket 3 — CR 7 to 12 — 70 to 170 gold
Bracket 4 — CR 12 to 17 — 105 to 250 gold
Bracket 5 — CR 17 to 22 — 155 to 360 gold
Bracket 6 — CR 22 to 27 — 225 to 490 gold
Bracket 7 — CR 27 to 30 — 310 to 700 gold

How I would then imagine it working, is that for every level a character is above the maximum CR of a bracket, the maximum value is reduced by a proportionate percentage, while the minimum value is kept

For example, if the proportionate percentage per level is 5%, then for a level 30 character going to a bracket 5 area (17 to 22), their maximum value in that area is reduced by 40% (8 levels higher than maximum for the bracket). That puts the value range for a level 30 in a bracket 5 area at 115 to 216.

If the same level 30 character goes to a bracket 1 area (0 to 3), they would just straight up get the minimum of 25 gold at all times, since the reduced maximum would be less than the minimum, and thus cap out.

[Steve]

If you haven’t picked up on The Point, which is the Rebalance was made in order to use up more PC coin than before in consumables AND lesser coin returns so that gold starts having more value/meaning again, then...you’re missing the point.

Also, you don’t need to read between any lines, because Ged explicitly stated: adjust your gaming expectations, and your gaming habits.

That’s the pill you need to swallow folks!

[Tanlaus]

I feel you on weight. It’s something I struggle with as well. Constantly. I tend to stick to pairs of daggers when loot running over harder hitting weapons just to save on weight.

I do carry a wand of bulls which I almost only use when I find really valuable armor. Otherwise I’m notorious for leaving a trail enchanted armor behind me.

Also, you can get gloves of lesser restoration from the epic shop. Also 1/day. Or Mad Gent’s Boots have full restoration on them if it’s level drain that concerns you.

If I’m going into Durlag’s I just carry a shadow shield scroll with me. Only need it for the the room with the skeletal wizards. However, there’s only one chest in there and with the number of slime pools below plus the challenges I usually just skip it. Never can carry everything from that place anyway.

[chad878262]

First off I want to thank everyone for continuing to provide feedback, it is not falling on deaf ears and I fully understand there are many different experiences which is caused by different levels of understanding and comprehension. We as a staff are trying to address an issue that needed to be addressed (I hope we can all agree that it should not be MORE profitable for a level 30 PC to run Hilltop than it is for them to go through Greypeaks?) With this premise in mind I am going to share what I have 'heard' reading all of the posts and begin trying to come up with a compromise which allows us to promote the idea of better reward for more risk while alleviating some of the issues voiced in this and other thread.

1. Looting CR appropriate area's is not profitable enough. This doesn't mean every chest needs to contain an epic item, but essentially we need to raise the floor. Way I see it based on your posts and my own experience is epic area's chests seem to either give less than 100 gold or nearly/more than 1,000 gold with little to no in between. If possible we should a)raise the floor so that the chests are giving over 100 gold consistently and b) find a way to ensure the randomization is not favoring the floor and ceiling.

2. Some difficult area's are either not accurate with regard to the CR rating (such as Sharptooth Orc Cave with warlocks, Durlags, Ice Caves and Nashkel Mines, if I missed any feel free to reach out to me). We should endeavor to make certain that an area that is challenging even for epics is also rewarding for epics.

In the short term I am hoping we can come up with a way to still align the PvE looting experience with the server vision where risk and reward are better aligned. Long term I am hoping we can come up with tools that allow builders and developers to go even farther in providing a unique experience both from an exploration and PC growth perspective. I hope everyone can understand that when any of us posts a response we are not trying to be condescending or diminish what you have told us. There are always differences in how I may read what I type vs. how the recipient reads it. I do hope everyone at least accepts that we are trying to make the overall experience better and we did say their will be some bumps along the way. Rarely is anything worth it easy to do.

Cheers everyone, please do keep your feedback and thoughts coming. I hope this post finds you all well and we can work together to come up with something that is enjoyable for all of us.