SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

[NegInfinity]

Why do people need to powerlevel 21 to 30?

Some concepts require epic level mechanically.

The underpowered RP-build I mentioned (the one with ECL+1 and leveling penalty) - it only became playable at level 25. I didn't rcr the character even once.

When you play concept without rolling back your choices all the time, the only way to fix the build is to level up.

But constant 100% RCR is not the way to go for that. My personal preference is still one 100% opportunity every 6-12 months.

Make it 1 month or two weeks, and I'll agree with it. 6 months is too much RL time to spend just to be allowed to do something in a game.

[Thorsson]

Thorsson, you're stuck on "level 30" part of it, and ignore all the other levels. Also "you can only have fun at level 30" is a strawman that does not represent my opinion.

You won't have fun at level 30. In fact, you most likely have the most miserable experience on the server, because there will be very few people to interact/party with. Forget that level 30 exists. It is not what it is about.

I'm stuck on nothing. If the 100% RCR is only suggested to level 20 then I would not mention level 30 at all in respect to RCR. You may not have fun at level 30, but that doesn't seem to be the viewpoint of others who support the retention, it's level 30 that they're focused on.

As for your "work" argument...

Semantics. Call it effort, if that makes you feel better. My point is that you have a different relationship with a character that you have nurtured from level 1 than you do with one that you simply RCR'd at level 30. And the two characters will have a different relationship with the rest of the server too. Do you deny this?

The changes from 100% rcr were positive, as far as I can tell.

Some were positive; others not. Don't get me wrong. I have taken advantage of the 100% RCR and I understand the relief that comes from both being able to rescue a concept that no longer works in the Brave New World and also to replace a character I had gotten bored with. But I don't expect this to continue and I think that unlimited 100% RCRs is already a bad idea, even if only for a relatively short time. It should have been a one time only for each character, although I can understand why that wasn't the case.

Unlimited 100% RCR is open to abuse. Now you could say that it doesn't matter; after all the abusers are only having fun, eh? No, I'm not ascribing that view to you, but rather making the point that an individual having fun cannot be the only consideration here.

[NegInfinity]

Semantics. Call it effort, if that makes you feel better. My point is that you have a different relationship with a character that you have nurtured from level 1 than you do with one that you simply RCR'd at level 30. And the two characters will have a different relationship with the rest of the server too. Do you deny this?

Hmm, let me think. Yes, I'll go ahead and deny it.

It would be largely the same thing for me (meaning if the story is worth it, I'll permakill the char).

Your relationship with server depends on the actions and you'll have plenty of time to interact with people as either char (actually you'll have more time to act as rcrd char).

So, a week or two for rcrd char to make initial impression and build connections, and it will be pretty much the same thing as sudden return of established character that has been shelved for last 3 years.

However, I'll be more likely to be frustrated with "nurtured" char and said character is very likely to be frustrated about disappearances of many friends/acquiantances he/she met in the past.

No, I'm not ascribing that view to you,

Then why bother mentioning it at all? Ban abusers for life. It is simple.

[Rhifox]

Why do people need to powerlevel 21 to 30?

Some concepts require epic level mechanically.

I disagree.

But constant 100% RCR is not the way to go for that. My personal preference is still one 100% opportunity every 6-12 months.

Make it 1 month or two weeks, and I'll agree with it.

If you do 2-4 weeks, then you might as well not have any delay at all. If you're needing to RCR a character that often then you've either not planned out the build well or you're not committed to the character.

You won't have fun at level 30. In fact, you most likely have the most miserable experience on the server, because there will be very few people to interact/party with. Forget that level 30 exists. It is not what it is about.

What? I find a ton of level 30s (or within a few levels of 30) to interact and party with. What I don't find is low level characters. Oh there's a lot of low level faces, but how many of those are characters? How many are worth interacting with and getting to know if they have an expectancy of no longer than two weeks (since they apparently need to RCR that often)?

I leveled up from 1 to 26 over the course of the last 3 months. Of the various low level characters I met while leveling, there are only two that I still semi-interact with (and one of those was just an RCR50%'ed high level, not a legitimate low level). The rest either quit the server, quit the character, or had the character die. Characters in the epics however have typically been committed to their character, have really gotten into their character, and aren't (or weren't, before 100% RCR) likely to disappear on a whim, and thus have made up the bulk of my interactions even since I was under level 10.

[NegInfinity]

I disagree.

As you wish.

or you're not committed to the character.

o_O that's your opinion, and I don't agree with it.

If you do 2-4 weeks, then you might

Nope. 2-4 weeks is enough to figure out if the concept is working or not. 6 months is way too long.

What? I find a ton of level 30s (or within a few levels of 30) to interact and party with.

That does not match my experience. Then again, I played level 30 mostly over a year ago.
Not playing good alignment or social characters might have something to do with that.
After 100% RCR was introduced, finding people to RP became easier. Then again, these days I pretty much grab them by the throat regardless of what they were doing before. It is much more efficient than dropping hints and passive emotes and expecting someone to react to RP hook.

What I don't find is low level characters. Oh there's a lot of low level faces, but how many of those are characters?

You can walk up to them and start interacting. Then you'll find out.

How many are worth interacting with and getting to know if they have an expectancy of no longer than two weeks (since they apparently need to RCR that often)?

Can't vouch for others, but I think any char I control would be worth interacting with. FR is not a safe place, people come and go, visit and die. Anyone your character interacts with can die hour later. Something that is worth keeping in mind. I had positive encounters with lowbie newbie players this year. Anyone who's not silenrty running in circles in graveyard can be quite interesting.

[Thorsson]

Then why bother mentioning it at all? Ban abusers for life. It is simple.

Except that it isn't. There are abuses that could not be proved, or only proved with great difficulty. Banning doesn't tend to do much for the server population either. It's far easier not to allow 100% RCR. As I said, many of these go away if you make it, say, 80% RCR (not that I'm making that suggestion, just pointing out that several abuses I can think of are there because of unlimited 100% RCRs).

[NegInfinity]

Then why bother mentioning it at all? Ban abusers for life. It is simple.

Except that it isn't. There are abuses that could not be proved, or only proved with great difficulty. Banning doesn't tend to do much for the server population either. It's far easier not to allow 100% RCR. As I said, many of these go away if you make it, say, 80% RCR (not that I'm making that suggestion, just pointing out that several abuses I can think of are there because of unlimited 100% RCRs).

I don't agree with you.

I also don't agree with this kind of logic, because I saw it applied many times before. "let's not improve anything for the better, because we're afraid of cheaters that can possibly surface".

Basic delay for RCRing into a new concept and no delay for someone who never left nexus should be sufficent.

It is not a MOBA/MMO/whatever game constantly being attacked by endless of waves of scriptkiddies anyway.

The game is very very niche, and a small group of people still keeps playing it. So the best idea would be to cater to that group and attract more people instead of being afraid of exploits.

[Rhifox]

Nope. 2-4 weeks is enough to figure out if the concept is working or not. 6 months is way too long.

One should be deciding on the concept before even rolling the character, as I see it. For my own part every character I've made I spent 2-3 weeks messing around with builds on JEGs/NWN2db and considering background ideas before I ever rolled the character on BG proper. I want to be sure about my character before I roll it, not after.

Not playing good alignment or social characters might have something to do with that.

I don't play either, myself.

Then again, these days I pretty much grab them by the throat regardless of what they were doing before. It is much more efficient than dropping hints and passive emotes and expecting someone to react to RP hook.

Yes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[NegInfinity]

One should be deciding on the concept before even rolling the character, as I see it. For my own part every character I've made I spent 2-3 weeks messing around with builds on JEGs/NWN2db and considering background ideas before I ever rolled the character on BG proper. I want to be sure about my character before I roll it, not after.

Well, Jegs is currently completely unusable, and glitches fifty times per round.
Also, Jegs does not predict reaction you get from the server.

It is also possible to roll mechanically strong character, make bio, test build, put it into game and realize that it is completely unfun for whatever reason. Or that there's some fundamental problem you've overlooked despite all the testing.

I had at least four occurrences where a character I spent a lot of time thinking about didn't "click" with the environment one way or another. One of them was utter disaster and ended in me losing a month (and a half, I think) of time invested into character. That's with build, bio, etc, taken care of. All because someone broke PvP rules. It was a pity, too. The concept had a great potential in it.

[Thorsson]

I also don't agree with this kind of logic, because I saw it applied many times before. "let's not improve anything for the better, because we're afraid of cheaters that can possibly surface".

That's hardly my logic, because I don't agree it's for the better. I still think that more XP while levelling and no RCR at all is a better course. But then I like developing the character over time, rather than jumping straight in with a fully-formed character with a made-up history.

[trogers2]

I do not think anyone has argued that the 100% RCR is NOT the cat's meow. But in being such a "great tool" given to the Players, one should ask what happens if it stays. And the 100% RCR staying is simply more about the reward to Players, versus the RP/reward/challenge/interest of our PCs. 100% RCR does nothing to improve the quality of RP on this Server, which is what this Server is about right? It does make Players more happy, and if that what the 100% RCR is about, then it worked, and it should stay. But that isn't what the 100% RCR was about:

...Kinda; RCR sits on the fence on the one side you have people rebuilding their toons all the time, which is NOT healthy for the server - and on the other hand you have its RP value which is:

- Using it for character development e.g. A fighter becoming a paladin (RCR over time)
- Fixing glitches, invalid feats, skill points etc...
- Character changes e.g. Hair colour, facial hair etc... etc...

As long as the character stays canon, I fail to see what damage this can do - HOWEVER, policing it is the big issue.

Well, Jegs is currently completely unusable, and glitches fifty times per round.
Also, Jegs does not predict reaction you get from the server.

As it has been said time and time again; not everyone gets it right first time - a build should sing in harmony with a character; and sometimes it simply does not. The reason, I feel you do not hear more about this is because a) the rules b) this 'put up or shut up' attitude and c) Because players feel their is no support.

I've been driven away by this before (3 years ago) and when I came back; I was playing Manah with a build that didn't match her character - I didn't want to take the 50% RCR hit; a very common theme - and if you read the last few pages of this thread you'll see other people stepping forward with the same story.

The XP system is slow, rough, hard and yes it is painfully difficult to level to at 300k exp at 30 kill that is over 10,000 monster kills or just under at 5 sec a kill; that works out at (around) 2.3 years of solid grinding, as well as the other xp sources.

But does that matter? NO! This server is not about the xp or the leveling - it is about RP; does leveling play a part? Hell yeah!

I want the RCR to stay, but it should be done via a simple system that stops people from abusing it - a player can ask a DM for a 'token' (already in place) and can tell the DM why they are RCRing, this way we can all meet in the middle and players who are unhappy with their characters can fix said flaw.

If there is one thing we do not want to do; it is to drive players away - leveling and builds are part of RP; and help in DM events as well there is nothing worse than feeling powerless, and this is made worse if you have built a character who is supposed to be a strong leader, but you can not RP that, death and the slow exp are already painful enough - but to punish those for wanting to change their build - I don't think is healthy, and can (will) drive new players away.

[NegInfinity]

I also don't agree with this kind of logic, because I saw it applied many times before. "let's not improve anything for the better, because we're afraid of cheaters that can possibly surface".

That's hardly my logic, because I don't agree it's for the better. I still think that more XP while levelling and no RCR at all is a better course. But then I like developing the character over time, rather than jumping straight in with a fully-formed character with a made-up history.

Well, when you start at level 1, you also have fully-formed character with made-up history. And when you'rehigh level you can still develop your character without ever gaining a level. You know, by changing their ppersonality and behavior in response to events that happen.

[V'rass]

I prob wont be going over lv 21 anyway. 15xp per kill for the several billion xp needed to reach each lv after 21 is simply not worth the time and effort. My build is already a beast at lv 15, able to tank even lv 30 mobs relatively well when fully buffed. Don't have much in dps but that is a perfectly fine trade for being nigh unhittable. Lv 21 should be more then enough for me.

[NegInfinity]

I prob wont be going over lv 21 anyway. 15xp per kill for the several billion xp needed to reach each lv after 21 is simply not worth the time and effort. My build is already a beast at lv 15, able to tank even lv 30 mobs relatively well when fully buffed. Don't have much in dps but that is a perfectly fine trade for being nigh unhittable. Lv 21 should be more then enough for me.

I'm not sure if the balance has changed, but there were several very high CR areas you may want to check out.

Basically, "Sun Mountains" or whatever they're caled which are connected to Corm Op. Back when the area was introduced, the party I was in (included Shifter Druid and a Stormlord, levels around 23) wandered in and got slaughtered in seconds. Then there's the whole passage to the Underdark, and you have "The Great White Death by Dragon Fire". Forest of Wyrms used to be decent challenge, depending on the build you were running, not sure if that's still the case.

Also, current xp rates causes epics to become more cowardly when they're nearing next level (should probably be the other way around - with high levels being more sure of themselves, and lower levels being non-suicidal). One hit can set you back a week, easily, and non-combat means of gaining xp start outmatching combat ones. On other hand I saw people grinding lizardmen non-stop for weeks too (I sincirely hope they were having fun in the process).

[Thorsson]

Well, when you start at level 1, you also have fully-formed character with made-up history. And when you'rehigh level you can still develop your character without ever gaining a level. You know, by changing their ppersonality and behavior in response to events that happen.

Actually I don't. I only know certain things about my character at level 1. They're not complete personalities; that comes as they develop. By level 20 they are pretty complete and a Druid doesn't suddenly want to become a Paladin.

I contend that RCR is only here because of the ridiculous XP curve. If you could easily reach level 30 in a month (not that I'm setting that as a target) what would be the point? Have you ever RCR'd an Epic character in PnP?

OFC you can RCR IRL. Hang on, a Teacher can't suddenly decide to be a Doctor - there's the small point of 7 year's medical training (you might equate that to levelling...). Nor can you switch from being very wise to being strong and charismatic. I wish you could...