Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Steve wrote: I do not think anyone has argued that the 100% RCR is NOT the cat's meow. But in being such a "great tool" given to the Players, one should ask what happens if it stays. And the 100% RCR staying is simply more about the reward to Players, versus the RP/reward/challenge/interest of our PCs. 100% RCR does nothing to improve the quality of RP on this Server, which is what this Server is about right? It does make Players more happy, and if that what the 100% RCR is about, then it worked, and it should stay. But that isn't what the 100% RCR was about:

I am going to argue that having someone to RP with improved the RP on the server. The population decline accelerated last year and we all know it. That seems to have reversed, and it should be thought about long and hard before tossing out the changes that resulted in the reversal.

Thorsson wrote: OFC you can RCR IRL. Hang on, a Teacher can't suddenly decide to be a Doctor - there's the small point of 7 year's medical training (you might equate that to levelling...). Nor can you switch from being very wise to being strong and charismatic. I wish you could...

But Thorsson...this is fantasy!!! In fantasy land, a fighter can reach epic experience in their "field" then, become a Paladin! And not just any beginner Paladin, but an equally experienced Paladin to their Fighter-ness.

Oh! And there is even more wacky-ness Class/PrC changes just fully fantasizable waiting, out there, in the Big Bad Forgotten Realms. Thank the disinterested, unknown and older than dirt Ao, for giving us an OOC Tool to make this happen!

HappyDays wrote:

Steve wrote: I do not think anyone has argued that the 100% RCR is NOT the cat's meow. But in being such a "great tool" given to the Players, one should ask what happens if it stays. And the 100% RCR staying is simply more about the reward to Players, versus the RP/reward/challenge/interest of our PCs. 100% RCR does nothing to improve the quality of RP on this Server, which is what this Server is about right? It does make Players more happy, and if that what the 100% RCR is about, then it worked, and it should stay. But that isn't what the 100% RCR was about:

I am going to argue that having someone to RP with improved the RP on the server. The population decline accelerated last year and we all know it. That seems to have reversed, and it should be thought about long and hard before tossing out the changes that resulted in the reversal.

I do enjoy having new people to rp with.

Thorsson wrote: If you could easily reach level 30 in a month (not that I'm setting that as a target) what would be the point?

The story. No, really. An epic journey of someone who goes and adventure, grows and power, and then dies horribly in a ditch somewhere. Glorious!

Thorsson wrote: OFC you can RCR IRL.

-_-
Are you seriously comparing real world to a game that has dragons, magic and absolute morality? Those two settings have very little in common.

HappyDays wrote:I am going to argue that having someone to RP with improved the RP on the server. The population decline accelerated last year and we all know it. That seems to have reversed, and it should be thought about long and hard before tossing out the changes that resulted in the reversal.

Yes. The reversal wasn't as big as Sigil's coming back from the dead few years ago, but it is important. This game is not exactly popular, and the servers that treat XP seriously (like Alfa) usually have peak population of 3 people.

Basically, as thorsson said, RCR is here because of low xp rate, but because the effect of 100% rcr was positive, and because rebalancing the server would take eternity, it is a good idea to keep it.

NegInfinity wrote: Basically, as thorsson said, RCR is here because of low xp rate, but because the effect of 100% rcr was positive, and because rebalancing the server would take eternity, it is a good idea to keep it.

Was it the 100% RCR, or all the new changes, maps, and goodies? Afterall, it was a HUGE update.

NeOmega wrote: Afterall, it was a ..

As you saw on previous pages, at least some people returned due to 100% RCR.

NeOmega wrote:

NegInfinity wrote: Basically, as thorsson said, RCR is here because of low xp rate, but because the effect of 100% rcr was positive, and because rebalancing the server would take eternity, it is a good idea to keep it.

Was it the 100% RCR, or all the new changes, maps, and goodies? Afterall, it was a HUGE update.

The new changes are wonderful, a breath of fresh air. They certainly dispelled the smell of death that hung in the air.

But without the RCR I would have remained relatively inactive. Character concepts flawed, played out, no longer fun. No motivation to grind it up again. All the class changes in the world would not have changed that. Especially with them all stuck on the "old" things.

NegInfinity wrote:Are you seriously comparing real world to a game that has dragons, magic and absolute morality? Those two settings have very little in common.

Oh, I agree. That was a joke. I notice that you've twice ignored my comparisons to PnP though.

I also note that you've twice ignored my point that why not go for a point between 50% and 100%, which removes the option for abuse, but also significantly reduces the pain of RCR. It's no good saying 'ban abusers' because you have to catch them, which would be difficult or impossible and waste a lot of valuable DM time.

NegInfinity wrote:Basically, as thorsson said, RCR is here because of low xp rate, but because the effect of 100% rcr was positive, and because rebalancing the server would take eternity, it is a good idea to keep it.

While I think that there still needs to be a rebalancing of this server to cater for different character types, the main thing that's needed here is the removal or change of the Epic XP dampening. That cannot be a huge task.

Thorsson wrote: Oh, I agree. That was a joke. I notice that you've twice ignored my comparisons to PnP though.

I also note that you've twice ignored my point that why not go for a point between 50% and 100%, which removes the option for abuse, but also significantly reduces the pain of RCR. It's no good saying 'ban abusers' because you have to catch them, which would be difficult or impossible and waste a lot of valuable DM time.

Well, it is not PnP. PnP has you and party, DM and the world, and one story centered around your party. The server has multiple people with conflicting interests, and many stories. It would not be the right idea to compare the server to PnP games.

I hit 4 bad rcrs in the row once (went from 23 to 8), so I do not think that "below 100%" will be that much of a good idea or that much of a difference. I do not want to be forced to go through the abominable leveling process ever again. And I don't want any good character that returned only because 100% rebuild having to do the same.

If you enjoy particular level range, sure, feel free to ask a DM to delevel you or start from scratch. Having Additional RCR with a loss as an option is also possible

Thorsson wrote: While I think that there still needs to be a rebalancing of this server to cater for different character types, the main thing that's needed here is the removal or change of the Epic XP dampening. That cannot be a huge task.

While it may not be a huge task, it can easily take up to 3 or 5 years with BGTSCC average development speed. 100% RCR is available now. Rebalanced XP is not. It is this simple.

NegInfinity wrote: I do not want to be forced to go through the abominable leveling process ever again.

Forced? FORCED?!? You really seem to have a backarsewards understanding of why to play this game. Considering no one, and I mean no one, is forcing you to play on BGTSCC, to state the above...is so removed from the general reality...it boggles the mind.

Oh, and by the way:

NegInfinity wrote:I do not have eternity to spend arguing on this topic.

Steve wrote:

NegInfinity wrote: I do not want to be forced to go through the abominable leveling process ever again.

Forced? FORCED?!? You really seem to have a backarsewards understanding of why to play this game. Considering no one, and I mean no one, is forcing you to play on BGTSCC, to state the above...is so removed from the general reality...it boggles the mind.

Oh, and by the way:

NegInfinity wrote:I do not have eternity to spend arguing on this topic.

Apart from the very nature of a human being that wants to improve, you want punishment for that?! I too have to admit that i am not as gifted as you, i do mistakes and my nature is forcing me to correct mistakes....

NegInfinity wrote:It would not be the right idea to compare the server to PnP games.

Nevertheless it is done more often than not. My point is that there is no basis for RCR. And equally, while D&D is not real life, there is a logical consistency. The only way RCR could happen is through divine intervention, something of extreme rarity. Casually RCRing at will removes the magic, the divine becomes mundane. And if through this divine intervention a Druid did become a Paladin, I doubt very much if he would spring, like Pallas Athene of old, fully formed from the Druid's breast.

NegInfinity wrote:I hit 4 bad rcrs in the row once (went from 23 to 8), so I do not think that "below 100%" will be that much of a good idea or that much of a difference.

I think that you must be exceptionally bad at envisaging your characters! I don't think this experience is typical and so it should not be the basis of any decision. Moreover you are quite wrong to say that anything less than 100% is as bad as 50%. 50%^4 = 6.25%. 80%^4 = 40.96%, a difference of over 6 times.

NegInfinity wrote:100% RCR is available now. Rebalanced XP is not. It is this simple.

100% RCR has no basis in lore, contravenes game logic, can be abused, and contrary to what has been said, has not been earned. Rebalanced XP OTOH is supported by lore, contravenes no logic, does not lead to abuse, and has to be earned. It's that simple.

It's not better to jump from the frying pan into the fire (i.e. to go from one bad thing to another). And giving people what they say they want is not always the best measure (GG said as much to me once), as can be evinced by the number of people who are obese.

Thorsson wrote:My point is that there is no basis for RCR.

Why do you keep ignoring the obvious? Is it on purpose?

The RCR exists to accommodate to other players who are not you. The people who have less play time, play game differently, etc. In turn, those people will provide large array of character for YOU to interact with. Encriching YOUR world and making it more believable and enjoyable - for YOU.

Oh you removed RCR? Hope you enjoy interacting with grinding parties, because that's all you'll be getting most of the time. You want everything to be done in "the one the only right perfect logical way"? Enjoy the empty server. You expect to "rebalance xp"? Enjoy the empty server again, because 5 years from now it won't finished.

You reasoning resembles a lot "rule lawyering". The only thing a rule lawyer ever achieves is ruining the game for everybody else and alienating people. And instead of thinking of "logical reasons in lore", think about the other people who are playing the game with you and their possible RL situations.

NegInfinity wrote:Why do you keep ignoring the obvious? Is it on purpose?

Because it's not obvious?

NegInfinity wrote:The RCR exists to accommodate to other players who are not you.

Not true. I've already said I've used RCR. I just think that it's not the best solution. And 100% RCR is definitely not the best solution.

NegInfinity wrote:The people who have less play time, play game differently, etc.

Well if they got to level 30, they probably have more time. Although, to be fair, I have more time currently by far than I've ever had since I first came to BGTSCC. But still, I don't see that it's time related. My views haven't changed on this since the months when I had no time to play at all. I have no idea if they play the game differently, but I fail to see why that should make them want 100% RCR. I bet Steve plays the game differently to me too.

NegInfinity wrote:In turn, those people will provide large array of character for YOU to interact with. Encriching YOUR world and making it more believable and enjoyable - for YOU.

Some may be. Others may be playing the game too differently. But it seems a bit of a red herring to me. There's no proof that we wouldn't have just as many people if levelling was easier and RCR didn't exist at all. Nor that we'd lose any appreciable number if RCR ws dialled back from 100% to (say) 80%. Of course those who want 100% RCR are likely to say otherwise, it's in their self-interest to do so...

NegInfinity wrote:Oh you removed RCR? Hope you enjoy interacting with grinding parties, because that's all you'll be getting most of the time. You want everything to be done in "the one the only right perfect logical way"? Enjoy the empty server. You expect to "rebalance xp"? Enjoy the empty server again, because 5 years from now it won't finished.

This is a straw man. I only said that I would prefer no RCR and rather easier levelling in Epics. I already acknowledged that without the rebalancing then RCR would need to remain. I am simply against 100% RCR. This has been clear from the off. As for it taking 5 years to do, that is solely your opinion. It probably won't ever get done, but I think if the will was there, it would take considerably less than that. But that's just my opinion, as well. It's no better than yours, but no worse either.

NegInfinity wrote:You reasoning resembles a lot "rule lawyering". The only thing a rule lawyer ever achieves is ruining the game for everybody else and alienating people. And instead of thinking of "logical reasons in lore", think about the other people who are playing the game with you and their possible RL situations.

Now we have ad hominem attacks? Really, Neg. Go sit down somewhere and have a nice cup of tea.

I understand that some people think that they want 100% RCR for ever. Many of those wouldn't deliberately abuse the system. It's moot whether that would be good for the long term health of the server. It might just be a short-lived wonder. Be careful what you wish for, Neg...

I don't like to moderate with a heavy hand but after 17 pages I am not really seeing any fresh points being raised here over and above whats already been said.

I'll leave it open but unless something new is added perhaps its best this thread remain as is.