Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[Mallore]

posted this in the QC discussion, but thought I would place it here to see what the community thinks.

What if we came up with rules around FS that restricted multi-classing? some examples:

- FS cannot take Blackguard/Cleric/Paladin Levels (i.e. no EDM FS)
- FS cannot take any base class, PRC only (downside is only evil FS can get EDM)
- Come up with list based on Deity of classes/PRC's allowed for FS (i.e. Mask allows rogue type classes, Tyr allows Paladin, Bane allows BG, etc)

Any thoughts from the community? Like/hate/meh?

Thumbs up to this. Plus there is a ton of other flavor rp stuff. Such as a gods favored weapon. A gods dogma regarding certian classes or alignments.

It also falls into line with the servers rule of play your sheet. So it's not anything new.

[Xanfyrst]

I played a Favoured Soul for a few years and though I rarely went out to kill anything, I do know they're powerful. But my WM/FB was more powerful. My bard was more powerful. Mages are powerful. Lots of classes and class-combinations are more powerful than the FS with BG/Pal/Cleric.

I suppose where the FS differs is staying power. They may not hit like a WM/FB, but they can stay in a fight for a lot longer. I think the dragon-druid might be the only other class that may rival it on that point.

PvP-wise I'd pick other builds. Not that they're weak, but there's better ones out there. Yes, besides mages.

I don't like class-restrictions to a base class for no other reason to limit their power. Then it's better to nerf it. However, you could put restrictions on those class combinations based on RP. But I suppose that forces an application upon it and the DM team have to check up on it frequently.

[arakes99]

I think some simple rules as above to limit certain combinations is the easiest route to go, it doesn't break the class and it doesn't invalidate any past characters.

[Garn Greymoon]

Out of curiosity will there be a post about other class combinations with restrictions as well?

[V'rass]

Too many class restrictions to begin with... we dont need any more.

[aaron22]

ok. there are two problems with the FvS class that we are discussing here.

1: RP is shallow. sounds like that is mostly the players fault, but limiting the class combinations to the class is only going to make that harder and make most future FvS's too similar... Hello cookie cutter FvS.

2: the class is out of balance power wise. this could be addressed in all sorts of ways. but the ONE that makes the most sense is making it fall in line with the other caster/sister-caster combinations we have and the Wisdom should be the spell book and the Charisma be the DC. drop the DR too to give it a big vulnerability and mash a ST like reflex to knock it down further and i think you would be right in line.

P.S. who cares what it is called? each PC is it's own idea and the titles are just a generalization. call it foot washer or messiah. it makes no difference IMHO. just because you take monk class doesnt mean you HAD to spend time in a monestary. as long as it makes sense it doesnt matter because creativity shouldnt be that limited

[Garn Greymoon]

By switching to wisdom to the spell book and eliminating some of the class festures it's just a subpar cleric with no domains.

I know i didn't have any intention of creating a cleric for Garn. Charisma in dnd ( at least PnP ) can be derived as a force of personality not just hey I'm good looking.

I'd like people that are suggesting temove this or that to think about how that affects the flavor of the class and what a suitable replacement could be. It's all too easy to cry temove this or that when it's not affecting your character.

[DM Galatea]

The RP arguments im seeing are absolutely redicueless, since when are we policing how everyone plays their class? Shall we start nitpicking on everyone who dips in to a class for a few levels Galatea? What about the myriad of fighters build out there with 3 rogue or bard levels for skill points and evasion witth expose weakness?

I dont get where this contempt comes from

Give me half a chance and I would. I am a DnD purist and a Hitler with multiclassing. However I am in the minority here. Favoured Souls are just the overpowered red headed stepchild.

[aaron22]

By switching to wisdom to the spell book and eliminating some of the class festures it's just a subpar cleric with no domains.

no. that would be like saying that a sorc is just a subpar wiz. its a different way to achieve similar results

I know i didn't have any intention of creating a cleric for Garn. Charisma in dnd ( at least PnP ) can be derived as a force of personality not just hey I'm good looking.

right. no one is arguing that

I'd like people that are suggesting temove this or that to think about how that affects the flavor of the class and what a suitable replacement could be. It's all too easy to cry temove this or that when it's not affecting your character.

well changing the flavor is EXACTLY the point. cause that flavor is OP. i am not saying that your character is a MIN/MAX super dip with all the gadgets, but the character can be built into a juggernaut that has vertically no weaknesses. that would be MOST UNLIKE all the other builds and should be addressed.

[Garn Greymoon]

Right but to iterate the point sorcerer isn't based off of intelligence. That's one of the very interesting things a out a FS it's the only divine caster nwn2 made based off of that.

If it's just the idea of being a chosen of God x y zthen who cares change the class name and call it a good day. People will rp the way they want to without having to do a compete rebuild or scrap the whole character. For simplicity sake any class is a power house when it's dipped with the right classes. FS isn't an exclusive. Do we need to teally make a list of. Hilda to get the point across?

[Calodan]

Give me half a chance and I would. I am a DnD purist and a Hitler with multiclassing. However I am in the minority here. Favoured Souls are just the overpowered red headed stepchild.

With this kind of talk I am surprised you are a DM. I know I personally will step out of every event you run at this point after seeing the venom you have spit here for RP of certain individuals willing to play a class. Also calling yourself a purist can be construed as ELITIST. Perhaps next time you should post from your real account on public opinion as of this moment I am saddened by such a view and a venomous one at that. I personally do not find your comments witty or even amusing considering the issues this server already has retaining new players and that kind of attitude from a DM would certainly turn me off to the server pretty quickly.

So many classes here and so many minds attempting to RP those classes and put together storylines for us all to enjoy. All I know is that I am thankful for this server the way it was and is becoming. The people here are doing everything they can to provide an environment of fun for us and I just want to say thanks! This thread is running its course and at this point I think the community has shared their thoughts including some of the most prevalent FvS' on the server. I will admit I am still saddened that we would change this class and just elevate the Bard builds above everyone else at this point (coincidentally this will also mean more traveling stories everywhere and everyone talking in poetry or singing conversations since there will be a influx of Bards at that point......) I think it is pretty clear that there are numerous other builds with similar power but since I have never actually played an optimized FvS I have no clue. I would like to state that my particular build can solo every dungeon yes but the only reason it can solo Balor or Dracolich is with a ton of scrolls. It costs me over 5k every time to do those dungeons with Kory solo. In the VOD I get dispelled 2-4 times per level that eats up about 12 charges of Bless weapon for the magic damage against undead that is needed to kill bony things with piercing weapons. In the Grey Peaks the Balor is just a wrecker and I need a ton of healing up there so I quaf at least 5-10 Healing pots at 1k a piece in a battle with him. Oh did I mention the need for mirrors, displacement and ethereal visage to help tone down the need for the healing pots? Look without EDM or another route like WM a FvS is not that powerful compared to other builds. In fact Kory stats are like this STR 24 DEX 14 CON 10 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 17. That is right people Kory is a STR FvS. A less than desirable build for FvS. Many of the builds are like that unless you mix in EDM then they are different. As in MIN-MAXED As you can see Kory is not like that I put points into everything and made sure he was a believable build. In fact all my builds even if built mechanically sound are not MIN-MAXED anymore. I guess what I am saying is this. It is the super classes that make cheasy sub par weapons aka the SPEAR worth it to build concepts with on this server do to the immense types of DR here against piercing weapons.

[RedLancer]

I personally do not find your comments witty or even amusing considering the issues this server already has retaining new players and that kind of attitude from a DM would certainly turn me off to the server pretty quickly.

They turned me on, so I guess it's a wash.

[LISA100595]

Lets look at this from a different perspective for just a moment... a business standpoint.

Lets say the server is our "Business" the "Classes" are our product and the players are our "Customers"

You know when you go to the store or company and they no longer have the item you want or like to purchase or they have reduced the quality of that product? Do you continue to shop there or do you go somewhere else that Has that particular item or similar item of similar quality? This has happened to me time and time again and I'm sure it has to all of you as well.

Less Customers (players) = Less chance of Donations coming into the server to keep it up and running and Less chance to RP in this example.

by the way the DM's are Customer Service

[chad878262]

Lots of great points made in this thread, but also seems to be a lot of defensive / aggressive posts. As a reminder QC does not consider things like class flavor or non-optimized builds. IMO the simplest comparison to FS is to look at what a Sorc is vs. a Wizard and then look at FS vs. Cleric...

Sorc gains more spells per day and spontaneous casting, but loses spells known, a feat every 5 levels, skill points from INT based casting and ability to be a 'specialist'... There is no reason to multi-class w/ wizard as the 'specialization' wouldn't help Sorc spells, any more than 4 WIZ levels would hurt Sorc CL with no benefit, etc.

On the other hand FS gives up very little. The Cleric Spell list is not as vast as the Wizards so losing out on knowing all the spells is not really that big a penalty...Sure you lose a few spells you might otherwise enjoy, but nothing that is really a key power. In any case, the FS loses domains, turn undead, ability to know all the spells and heavy armor, but all of these are available by taking 1 level of cleric and, outside of domains by taking 3 BG or 4 Pal... Dipping one of these three classes instantly makes FS better in every way to a similarly built Cleric (except for the rare DC Cleric and the even rarer (and fairly useless) Turn Undead Cleric. In addition to the fact that a small dip where the FS can still get Full CL, they now gain 3 weapon feats, Energy Resistance, Damage Resistance and Haste 3/day... For me this is where I kind of cock my head and squint my eyes, Sorc doesn't get any super cool extra abilities for what it gives up yet the FS, while giving up arguably less (nothing when you consider the small dip required to gain everything back besides 'knowing all the spells') gets the equivalent of what would take MANY feats to equal (3* for a cleric to gain Martial Weapons, WF, WS / several feats to get equivalent Energy resistance and then gaining 10DR which would require 3 epic feats plus other requirements, not too mention the 3/day character level haste!)

This is why from a balance perspective, to me the FS fails... It is supposed to be the clerical answer to the wizard / sorcerer question, but instead it overshadows everything the cleric does.

[Calodan]

This is why from a balance perspective, to me the FS fails... It is supposed to be the clerical answer to the wizard / sorcerer question, but instead it overshadows everything the cleric does.

I don't think so IMHO. For example a FvS is the true fighter of the two but a cleric built for DCs and given maximized meta magic and empowered meta magic with tons of sun spells and such is a undead wrecking crew where a FvS has to use its plethora of mass healing spells to effectively kill undead en masse like a cleric can. I say that TURN UNDEAD is more valuable than many people realize other than for EDM pre reqs. Consider for one second that it is possible for a Cleric/Hierophant/Morning Lord to just wave a hand and turn the Balor. No FvS is going to do that. No other class can do that. Only a Cleric can. The balor is the second hardest boss in the PvM realm we have.