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Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:49 am
by Snarfy
NegInfinity wrote:I do not want to be forced to go through the abominable leveling process ever again.
Character growth, both mechanical and story wise, is an integral part of playing on this role-play, and not 100% free XP, server. If you don't like "being forced"( :| ) to go through the leveling process then the solution is very simple: don't play!

But, since I'm the considerate type (*cough*) and I like to...
... think about the other people who are playing the game with you and their possible RL situations...
... let me help you: for only a meager 3 hours out of 168 hours in a week, you can get over 10,000 XP per character, every week, for the rest of eternity, by running quests alone.

Alternatively, you might consider spending more time actually developing your characters through the numerous other means and ways to acquire experience that already exist, rather than standing in the nexus or "spending eternity arguing on this topic", hmm?

Speaking of this topic, why is it even still going? The powers that be already decided that 100% RcR is going to be reverted, end of story. Please moderators, put this dead horse out of it's misery :lol:

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:56 am
by Steve
NegInfinity wrote: Oh you removed RCR? Hope you enjoy interacting with grinding parties, because that's all you'll be getting most of the time. You want everything to be done in "the one the only right perfect logical way"? Enjoy the empty server. You expect to "rebalance xp"? Enjoy the empty server again, because 5 years from now it won't finished.
This is all completely anecdotal arguments.
NegInfinity wrote: Why do you keep ignoring the obvious? Is it on purpose?
The same could be asked of you. A 100% RCR is a Player benefit. Is this Server meant to change to become that paradigm, where it is focused on player benefits over the nature of the game itself? The nature of the game, should you need to be reminded, is this:
D&D departs from traditional wargaming and assigns each player a specific character to play instead of a military formation. These characters embark upon imaginary adventures within a fantasy setting. A Dungeon Master serves as the game's referee and storyteller, while also maintaining the setting in which the adventures occur and playing the role of the inhabitants. The characters form a party that interacts with the setting's inhabitants (and each other). Together they solve dilemmas, engage in battles and gather treasure and knowledge. In the process the characters earn experience points to become increasingly powerful over a series of sessions.
NegInfinity wrote:The RCR exists to accommodate to other players who are not you. The people who have less play time, play game differently, etc. In turn, those people will provide large array of character for YOU to interact with. Encriching YOUR world and making it more believable and enjoyable - for YOU.
Again, anecdotal. First, define accommodate. Is it repair mistakes? Why are you entitled to have your mistakes freely repaired? Is that why and how you play your games, or that you feel it should even extend to real-life, but since that is utter rubbish, at least you demand it in your fantasy experience? Maybe you have conducted some online/offline study we are unaware of, but please do enlighten us on where you have data that shows one must reach certain levels of play time, play style differencs, etc. that currently fit the Server paradigm, and where they don't. And then show us your data projections on how this is factual, thus in return, generate the character role-play that will directly effect each and every one of us, plus, enriching the entire experience of the Server—in all facets employed—as well, create deeper immersion when bi-weekly, a new lvl 30 character is introduced, where I will now experience them over the next and following two weeks, exponentially increasing the enjoyment that I myself should and do have, for the role-play environment I generate, currently. I am waiting, patiently, for your response.

NegInfinity wrote:...think about the other people who are playing the game with you and their possible RL situations.
I do. I accommodate for that every time I try and organize something, or interact with them. THAT has absolutely nothing to do with needing a 100% RCR.

Negs, you continue to equate the eternal XP credit earned by "due paying" as a direct influence to greater role-play. It is, at best, anecdotal. But in the meantime, while we wait to find out if it is beyond anecdotal and true, the actual investment in Character, and the seriousness in which a Character Sheet should be upheld by the Player who is expected to have a certain responsibility to their choices, is eroded. This is/was even true of the RCR when it was 50% up to lvl 20.

If the argument would change to "let there be 100% RCR for rebuilds based on bugs, and in application only instances where a mistake was made," I could see the point as an honest attempt to be kind and caring to the Player base. 100% RCR as it stands now, is just too far beyond what it was initially implemented for (which I quoted a few posts back).

And again, the Staff is going—and probably needs to again—state exactly what the paradigm will be, concerning RCR. Staff, any returning comment?

Lastly, Thorrson has made a good point to consider: if XP gain was increased by X percentage, especially in the epic levels, and the RCR was fully removed, would Players be more inclined to role-play Characters from level 1 up, creating what I would argue is a more living environment?

Just because one could argue in opposition "well starting at lvl 1 doesn't fit my character concept," doesn't justify throwing out the idea that Thor has placed for consideration—why can't it be asked of the Player to fit their concept to the Environment, and/or grow into that concept through the basics of D&D:
...solve dilemmas, engage in battles and gather treasure and knowledge. In the process the characters earn experience points to become increasingly powerful over a series of sessions.

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:17 pm
by NegInfinity
Thorsson wrote:Now we have ad hominem attacks? Really, Neg. Go sit down somewhere and have a nice cup of tea.
Look, I had trouble properly sleeping for the past two weeks, and the last 12 pages of text makes me feel like i'm talking to a wall, except the wall occasionally starts insisting at cherry picking random words from text I spent time writing, and them writes an elaborate 3 page attempt to pervert my originally intended meaning to an opposite using a convoluted logical gymnastics maneuver.

This. Is. Frustrating.

Also, it is not "ad hominem". I said, "resemble". I don't know what you reasoning are, what you think (cause my TCP/IP mindreader is broken) and whether it is rule lawyering or not. It resembles it. Maybe it is one, maybe it is not, I don't know. Try different argument next time, maybe.

The words you posted reminded me of the absolutely ridiculous language learning rules on Arelith (rp for 6 IRL months every day to acquire language, maybe). It is pure insanity and complete disregard of RL life in favor of RP. I wouldn't want anything like that here.

I like the atmosphere. I like that you can walk to a dwarf, talk to him, and the char will have personality, backstory and will react to you inpredictable. I like that you can get killed by a paladin if you tick him off hard enough. I like reaction. The atmosphere improved compared to what it was 1..1.5 years ago. Back then, the experience was slowly changing from blast I had in February to a miserable runnign around for hours trying to find ANYONE to meaningfully interact with, because everybody was grinding. Right now it is no longer the case, and I think it is result of 100% RCR (see multiple people mentioning xp/motivation/grinding problems before), not the update itself. And I'd like to keep this atmosphere.

So how much MORE text should I write so everybody would finally get it?

Your attitude towards rebalancing xp on the server is noble one, but I think it won't be happening in my lifetime, and 100% RCR is more feasible option, because it is already here. Also, I would advise to submit separate proposition for that, instead of trying to promote it in this thread.

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:23 pm
by NegInfinity
Snarfy wrote: Character growth, both mechanical and story wise, is an integral part of
My character can grow just fine without ever gaining a level, thank you.
Snarfy wrote: by running quests alone.
...Are you kidding me?

The quests are as bad as grinding, if not worse.
I'm done with them. With grinding. With fishing. I want meaningful interactions, not this nonsense.

I would gladly murder every quest giver on the server if I could, in the most brutal fashion. I've done them so many times, so by now I hate them all.

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:21 pm
by RagingPeace
For those who might be wondering what those last few pages were about, let me rephase:

Steve: No --> exploits, and because RP. (no)
Thorson: Go away RCR, more XP per kill (no)
Negs: grind boring, quest boring, human mistakes. (yes)

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:59 pm
by NegInfinity
RagingPeace wrote:For those who might be wondering what those last few pages were about, let me rephase:

Steve: No --> exploits, and because RP. (no)
Thorson: Go away RCR, more XP per kill (no)
Negs: grind boring, quest boring, human mistakes. (yes)
Correction/info:
"Negs": grind time consuming, quest annoying, human mistakes, lack of time. (yes)
Calodan: "Agree with thorrson' about XP"
HappyDays: "would be inactive without 100% rcr"/time problems/don't wanna grind, 100% rcr reversed population decline.
Planehopper: "same situation, as happydays".
Rhifox: 100% rcr no more than once in 6 months, "character investment".
Trogers2: "returned because of 100% rcr, Manah build did not fit character, did not want to take hit"/time problems.
Ne0mega: Misinformed about Sigil/did 100% or new features attract people?.
Darkcloud777: "I enjoy interacting with the new people"

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:03 pm
by V'rass
*Sighs* Might be best to close this thread. It seems it's been hijacked by the flame warriors... :(

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:56 pm
by Thorsson
Negs. Try changing the words 'Rules Lawyer' to 'Baboon'. "Your arguments resemble those of a Baboon", say. Not a personal attack? :lol:

It would be a shame if, after 17 pages of managing to avoid such behaviour, it was to end now.

Now, I am hopefully going to post my last piece on the subject of RCR.

Firstly, let me ask why BGTSCC **really** has such a mean-spirited policy on XP? I suspect that it revolves around two things - the thought that if you make XP too attractive then it discourages RP and the second, the PnP-like thought, that when you reach level 30 "the game has ended". I think we can both agree that neither of these is actually true, at least on BGTSCC. In fact, in the case of XP it's the exact opposite - the fact that XP is so hard to come by has led to all sorts of anti-RP practices in the search for XP. And yes, the quests, despite being pretty well done, can be one of those. Most people treat them like foul-tasing medicine. They hate the taste, but they hate not doing them even more.

But why do we have an RCR? Really, if you examine what BGTSCC has purportedly stood for, at least in the 7 years I've been here, then RCR makes no sense at all. RCR is simply a plaster covering a boil. Far better to lance the boil. However, I do understand that we are where we are. And that, as the Irish say, "If I was going there, I wouldn't start from here."

Now you feel that the fact that some people have come back after three years, RCR'd a level 30 character and enjoyed themselves, indicates that 100% RCR should stay. That is really weak logic.

Firstly, I've been having fun at the same time, playing with people who are completely new to the server. So the recent increase in numbers is certainly not wholly down to returning RCRers.

Secondly, the people who gave up last time, might give up again in a few months, once they've exhausted all the classes they wanted to play (which they can do quickly thanks to 100% RCR).

Thirdly, many people more clever and successful than I (e.g. Steve Jobs) have made the point that giving people what they ask for isn't necessarily the road to success (I tried to illustrate this by pointing to the obesity problem and the fact that Gary Gygax said something very similar to me nearly 40 years ago). That they speak true is evidenced by those PWs that have given the players everything they asked for. None of them are as successful as BGTSCC.

100% RCR is not a universal panacea, no matter your wish that it were.

And you still haven't properly addressed the abuse issues.

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:16 pm
by NegInfinity
Thorsson wrote:Negs. Try changing the words 'Rules Lawyer' to 'Baboon'. "Your arguments resemble those of a Baboon", say. Not a personal attack? :lol:
Baboon is not a rule Lawyer. Baboon is a monkey/ape, and rule Lawyer is someone who can wreck damage while being convinced that he/she is doing the right thing. Please explain how thinking that you're doing the right thing equals to being an ape.
Thorsson wrote: Firstly, let me ask why BGTSCC **really** has such a mean-spirited policy on XP? I suspect that it revolves around two things - the thought that if you make XP too attractive then it discourages RP and the second, the PnP-like thought, that when you reach level 30 "the game has ended". I think we can both agree that neither of these is actually true, at least on BGTSCC. In fact, in the case of XP it's the exact opposite - the fact that XP is so hard to come by has led to all sorts of anti-RP practices in the search for XP. And yes, the quests, despite being pretty well done, can be one of those. Most people treat them like foul-tasing medicine. They hate the taste, but they hate not doing them even more.
True about xp becoming MORE attractive, not sure about lvl30 not being a game end.
Thorsson wrote: Now you feel that the fact that some people have come back after three years, RCR'd a level 30 character and enjoyed themselves, indicates that 100% RCR should stay. That is really weak logic.
Proof? You're expressing subjective feeling here. Weak or not, it is still logic (you'd need to prove that weak logicc is bad here. Do you really want to do that?)
Thorsson wrote: Firstly, I've been having fun at the same time, playing with people who are completely new to the server.
Subjective feeling.
I was not having fun when I quit about year ago. For months. The only reason I returned because I didn't need to grind to try a concept I wanted to try. Experience from a year ago left me with burning hatred of quests and grinding. Your experience does not nullify mine. And I'm not you.
Thorsson wrote: So the recent increase in numbers is certainly not wholly down to returning RCRers.
That's jumping to conclusion.
Thorsson wrote: Secondly, the people who gave up last time, might give up again in a few months, once they've exhausted all the classes they wanted to play (which they can do quickly thanks to 100% RCR).
They might or they might not. You cannot predict the future. I would expect the fun to last few months. Time will tell what will actually happen.
Thorsson wrote: Thirdly, many people more clever and successful than I (e.g. Steve Jobs) have made the point that giving people what they ask for isn't necessarily the road to success
However, bgtscc is not a business. So steve jobs words about success of life would not apply to it.
Thorsson wrote: 100% RCR is not a universal panacea, no matter your wish that it were.
That is not a logical outcome of your previous statements. I also was not looking for a universal panacea. I was looking for a temporary useful fix that can be applied right now with zero effort from the staff. Keeping a system that is already in effect is exactly that.
Thorsson wrote:And you still haven't properly addressed the abuse issues.
And you still haven't listed specific abuses you have in mind.
You see, I know specifically how I would use the system, and abuse is not on the list of the intended uses. However, listing absues here would teach people who can exploit them now, because the system is already active.

So, now what?

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:00 pm
by Face
Think we all ran around the Giants map for to many hours by now...
Grinding is bad for the soul and makes your eyes bleed , Rp is fun and lifts your spirit.
Thats how i see it any way.

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:25 pm
by NeOmega
Face wrote:Think we all ran around the Giants map for to many hours by now...
Grinding is bad for the soul and makes your eyes bleed , Rp is fun and lifts your spirit.
Thats how i see it any way.
Actually, I think I have only killed about 20 xvarts and giants combined in my 5 years here. Maybe 100 lizardmen. Maybe 500 stonespear goblins.

And the best RP is levels 1 through 5. Finding a scroll of summon creature IV can be a godsend. A disease actually can be a real problem, and finding a ring with +1 universal saves, or a sword with +2 negative energy damage, feels like something you'll treasure forever.

P.S. One of the reasons few people know any of my multitude of characters, is because when I do have time to actually play, and not just run around before reset or before I go to work, with my merchants is because:

1) I don't grind at cloakwood, stonespear goblins, xvarts, or giants, (for one, I think grinding against living creatures tirelessly is kind of evil, especially when it was lizardmen, so only my evil characters would even think they were great for killing dozens of celestial bears) and spend little time grinding at the graveyard before I try to encourage dungeoneering further and away. But grinding is eventually where much adventuring begins, because *some* people get bored, and eventually someone says, "hey, lets go kill the umberhulks instead!" (Some never do get bored of griniding, don't ask me why).

2) I like to play levels 1 - 10 with new characters. Afterwards, the adventures tend to get a bit meh. Nobody is willing to risk death, therefore take risk, therefore have fun. It's all running around, killing with impunity, and talking about your gods, or worse, getting a bunch of tells about what build you are and other OOC stuff that really just doesn't interest me much.

The quoted statement in this reply seems to be saying grinding defeats RP, therefore endless level 30 for all. Which is just poor logic.

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:38 pm
by Ariella
Why not simply go with 50% RCR but characters can delevel and relevel at 100%, Allows you to fix most mistakes but not to have instant 30's on new characters.

Or you could go with 100% but have the xp delivered over time, Say a set base amount 50% then the other 50% delivered as double xp.

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:53 am
by NegInfinity
NeOmega wrote: Actually, I think I have only killed about 20 xvarts and giants combined in my 5 years here. Maybe 100 lizardmen. Maybe 500 stonespear goblins.
Ne0mega, you pretty much say that you enjoy to play the game certain way and it works for you.

Speaking of sweet spots, the server has several. Those are levels 1..6, several spots around level 10..14, and level 20.
The absolutey worst experinece on the server is level 18-19, and anything 21+. (it starts "bad" at level 21 and gets to "the worst" by level 30).
NeOmega wrote: grinding defeats RP,
It does.
NeOmega wrote: therefore endless level 30 for all
However, the poster never said anything about endless 30s, that's YOUR statement.

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:54 am
by Thorsson
Ariella wrote:Why not simply go with 50% RCR but characters can delevel and relevel at 100%, Allows you to fix most mistakes but not to have instant 30's on new characters.
Well if you can re-level all the way, all you are stuck with is your creation stats/race/alignment/class, but it DOES stop the abuses I can think of. I think this a very good suggestion.

I know de-levelling can be done can be done mechanically because all the training modules have such an option. The question is how you get back the same number of XP. I imagine something similar to the RCR script would work, but someone more technical would have to confirm. Possibly there's a PW out there that already has this.

Re: SuggestIon: Keep 100% rcr

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:55 am
by Steve
Ariella wrote:Why not simply go with 50% RCR but characters can delevel and relevel at 100%, Allows you to fix most mistakes but not to have instant 30's on new characters.

Or you could go with 100% but have the xp delivered over time, Say a set base amount 50% then the other 50% delivered as double xp.
Either of these suggestions are far more in the spirit of the D&D game, and the idea of character development depends on growth through experience. Nice suggestions.

But I would still prefer what Thorsson suggested: exponentially improved XP rate at all levels, varied XP gain sources that promote RP over grinding, and removing the RCR, but allow for DM granted tokens to fix builds, should approval via application be granted. Yes, I expanded on Thor's initial suggestion.