Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[Garn Greymoon]

Please keep in mind the design element of FS. It has the weapon feats built in to imply that it's aimed towards a melee user. Thus the resistances and DR are class festures in lieu of heavy armor, domains and turn undead.

I can agree on haste that's one class feature I don't really get it feels unthematic.

Getting rid of any of the above drastically changes the class intention and design.

[Blackman D]

I don't think so IMHO. For example a FvS is the true fighter of the two but a cleric built for DCs and given maximized meta magic and empowered meta magic with tons of sun spells and such is a undead wrecking crew where a FvS has to use its plethora of mass healing spells to effectively kill undead en masse like a cleric can. I say that TURN UNDEAD is more valuable than many people realize other than for EDM pre reqs. Consider for one second that it is possible for a Cleric/Hierophant/Morning Lord to just wave a hand and turn the Balor. No FvS is going to do that. No other class can do that. Only a Cleric can. The balor is the second hardest boss in the PvM realm we have.

while turn undead is the most powerful ability a deity can grant someone, so rightful credit there, i think you are giving turning a balor a bit too much credit for how turning actually works

clerics and paladins can turn a balor, BG will never be able to turn anything without cleric levels because turning is primarily HD vs HD; 10 BG - 2 is only 8 HD vs a 20 some odd HD balor

[chad878262]

Fair point Kory, but also consider that is one enemy... There has been, in the past, some discussion in QC about making Turn Undead more useful, but as it stands now many mobs are completely immune to it or vastly improved over what they should be. Unfortunately it is a damned if you do/don't situation as that hand waving can allow for a server breaking ability to 'grind' XP if you make it too useful, but as we have it now, much like many rogue type abilities, it borders on useless.

DC Clerics can be powerful, but are kind of one trick ponies...what about non-undead? Evocation is probably the only truly 'viable' specialization for DC Clerics and the spell list is a bit limited, if powerful. A DC Cleric that can also Turn Undead well would be cool, but again would require some reworking of undead mobs on the server. However, none of this really outdoes the simple fact that a Wizard is generally a better DC Caster then a Sorc, while the Sorc is certainly a better blaster, mostly because the Wiz can have various spells with different save requirements while a sorc's spell list will be more limited and require careful selection while still having some gaps. On the other hand a FS with 3 cleric levels can wear the same armor, get the same abilities, cast more spells, get domain feats/powers while also gaining all the other stuff I mentioned. It gets TOO much without giving up really anything... Sure, it can't be a really good DC Caster, except it can... Asimar would be the simplest, but even with human it would be totally viable to go max Wis, get to 16/17 CHA and have the same DC's as a Cleric with very similar spells/day (sure, low CHA hurts, but they get more spells / day base which makes it pretty even.) Same issue as Sorc in limited spell selection, but considering Cleric spell list is pretty limited anyway they really just need to focus on evocation and they are as good a DC caster as the Cleric... The only real benefit cleric has is ability to get extra spells via air domain for more damage options.

[Garn Greymoon]

Fair point Kory, but also consider that is one enemy... There has been, in the past, some discussion in QC about making Turn Undead more useful, but as it stands now many mobs are completely immune to it or vastly improved over what they should be. Unfortunately it is a damned if you do/don't situation as that hand waving can allow for a server breaking ability to 'grind' XP if you make it too useful, but as we have it now, much like many rogue type abilities, it borders on useless.

DC Clerics can be powerful, but are kind of one trick ponies...what about non-undead? Evocation is probably the only truly 'viable' specialization for DC Clerics and the spell list is a bit limited, if powerful. A DC Cleric that can also Turn Undead well would be cool, but again would require some reworking of undead mobs on the server. However, none of this really outdoes the simple fact that a Wizard is generally a better DC Caster then a Sorc, while the Sorc is certainly a better blaster, mostly because the Wiz can have various spells with different save requirements while a sorc's spell list will be more limited and require careful selection while still having some gaps. On the other hand a FS with 3 cleric levels can wear the same armor, get the same abilities, cast more spells, get domain feats/powers while also gaining all the other stuff I mentioned. It gets TOO much without giving up really anything... Sure, it can't be a really good DC Caster, except it can... Asimar would be the simplest, but even with human it would be totally viable to go max Wis, get to 16/17 CHA and have the same DC's as a Cleric with very similar spells/day (sure, low CHA hurts, but they get more spells / day base which makes it pretty even.) Same issue as Sorc in limited spell selection, but considering Cleric spell list is pretty limited anyway they really just need to focus on evocation and they are as good a DC caster as the Cleric... The only real benefit cleric has is ability to get extra spells via air domain for more damage options.

I feel like if you don't take cleric for the above then this issue falls apart. Either we are looking at being a munchkin or judging the class impartially based solely on it's features. You can't have it both ways without having that same scrutiny applied to every class and it's design intention.

[NegInfinity]

On the other hand a FS with 3 cleric levels can wear the same armor,

The problem here is that you are talking about one specific build/class combination, while proposition in the first post affects ALL favored souls and not just specific build you mentioned.

I think it isn't right to implement a change that will affect every user of the class, when you only want to eliminate a specific combination.

[chad878262]

Not sure I understand your point... The reason I use Cleric is because FS is the 'Sorcerer' of the Cleric class so comparing the two is, IMO reasonable. Sorc gives up to get different stuff... Everything the FS gives up in regards to being a Cleric it can gain back with a one level dip (or 3/4 if you take BG/Pal in consideration, but that still allows them to reach CL30).

[aaron22]

Not sure I understand your point... The reason I use Cleric is because FS is the 'Sorcerer' of the Cleric class so comparing the two is, IMO reasonable. Sorc gives up to get different stuff... Everything the FS gives up in regards to being a Cleric it can gain back with a one level dip (or 3/4 if you take BG/Pal in consideration, but that still allows them to reach CL30).

exactly +1

look at what it is and what it is supposed to be and there is where you see the rather lopsided difference.

[Garn Greymoon]

It's only sorcerer as far as being tagged off of charisma with the spontaneous casting and dc based off of wisdom other than that see my earlier post a out class design.

With that I've said all i wanted with it dancing around in a circle. Feel free to pm me if you want a private conversation about class design I'd be happy to talk a out or for an hour on skype.

[DM Galatea]

Give me half a chance and I would. I am a DnD purist and a Hitler with multiclassing. However I am in the minority here. Favoured Souls are just the overpowered red headed stepchild.

With this kind of talk I am surprised you are a DM. I know I personally will step out of every event you run at this point after seeing the venom you have spit here for RP of certain individuals willing to play a class. Also calling yourself a purist can be construed as ELITIST. Perhaps next time you should post from your real account on public opinion as of this moment I am saddened by such a view and a venomous one at that. I personally do not find your comments witty or even amusing considering the issues this server already has retaining new players and that kind of attitude from a DM would certainly turn me off to the server pretty quickly.

So many classes here and so many minds attempting to RP those classes and put together storylines for us all to enjoy. All I know is that I am thankful for this server the way it was and is becoming. The people here are doing everything they can to provide an environment of fun for us and I just want to say thanks! This thread is running its course and at this point I think the community has shared their thoughts including some of the most prevalent FvS' on the server. I will admit I am still saddened that we would change this class and just elevate the Bard builds above everyone else at this point (coincidentally this will also mean more traveling stories everywhere and everyone talking in poetry or singing conversations since there will be a influx of Bards at that point......) I think it is pretty clear that there are numerous other builds with similar power but since I have never actually played an optimized FvS I have no clue. I would like to state that my particular build can solo every dungeon yes but the only reason it can solo Balor or Dracolich is with a ton of scrolls. It costs me over 5k every time to do those dungeons with Kory solo. In the VOD I get dispelled 2-4 times per level that eats up about 12 charges of Bless weapon for the magic damage against undead that is needed to kill bony things with piercing weapons. In the Grey Peaks the Balor is just a wrecker and I need a ton of healing up there so I quaf at least 5-10 Healing pots at 1k a piece in a battle with him. Oh did I mention the need for mirrors, displacement and ethereal visage to help tone down the need for the healing pots? Look without EDM or another route like WM a FvS is not that powerful compared to other builds. In fact Kory stats are like this STR 24 DEX 14 CON 10 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 17. That is right people Kory is a STR FvS. A less than desirable build for FvS. Many of the builds are like that unless you mix in EDM then they are different. As in MIN-MAXED As you can see Kory is not like that I put points into everything and made sure he was a believable build. In fact all my builds even if built mechanically sound are not MIN-MAXED anymore. I guess what I am saying is this. It is the super classes that make cheasy sub par weapons aka the SPEAR worth it to build concepts with on this server do to the immense types of DR here against piercing weapons.

My main pc is a near pure paladin with more skill points in useless crud than I know what to do with. She's also never PvPed. Ever. She doesn't even PvE. I have other things to do, but did even before I was a DM. She's also a paladin with (I think) 14 INT. No combat expertise. Uses a longsword. Not because it is a good weapon but because that was the weapon I chose. Your argument about crazy overpowered classes making RP 'work' is flawed in one grand sense - they work anyway, they just aren't strong. Well - to be blunt - tough. Nerfing one powerful class will bring the power dynamics of the whole server down a lot. It'll mean we need to look at encounters without the FvS distorting the balance. That is a good thing for RP.

Yes. I hate multiclassing. I think it dilutes characters. The classes in a class based RPG represent their skill sets. Except now we have literally hundreds of them and people use them to fill out stat sheets. I like to imagine characters have a reason for their progression. They rarely do.

If you wish to have some comeback on me because I 'insulted' your class (I said nothing about concepts - Hoar is in fact missing a worthy PrC for cases like yours) then please don't hesitate to send a complaint to the HDMs. However I think personally you wanted a powerful character and the FvS was your way in. To be blunt - your right to have a strong character doesn't subsume everyone else's rights to have a fairly balanced server.

[Blackman D]

A DC Cleric that can also Turn Undead well would be cool, but again would require some reworking of undead mobs on the server.

there is nothing to be done to mobs to make turning any easier... ease comes with stat/build selection

the single worse thing anyone can do to hurt their ability to turn undead is simple cross class into something that has no turn progression, if you dont end with 27 (paladin), 28 (cleric/BG), or 30 (cleric) turn level progression then you should not be surprised if you have issues

if you only have a 10 cha you should not be surprised if you have issues

[arakes99]

The more I hear, the more it only makes sense to block Paladin/Cleric/Blackguard multiclasses. Because it doesn't effect balance at all to allow FvS to stay charisma based on its own. Its only when they dip one of these three that it becomes ridiculous.

So we get rid of that, people that want an FvS can RP being charismatic all they want, but don't get to hit like freight trains while never even considering the possibility of dying. While I am very sorry this thread is so upsetting to some, the rest of the classes on this server get punished for your overwhelming power in DM events, random spawns, virtually everything because the FvS has no weaknesses and no limitations.

[chad878262]

A DC Cleric that can also Turn Undead well would be cool, but again would require some reworking of undead mobs on the server.

there is nothing to be done to mobs to make turning any easier... ease comes with stat/build selection

the single worse thing anyone can do to hurt their ability to turn undead is simple cross class into something that has no turn progression, if you dont end with 27 (paladin), 28 (cleric/BG), or 30 (cleric) turn level progression then you should not be surprised if you have issues

if you only have a 10 cha you should not be surprised if you have issues

Nothing to be done? BMD, please go back and look at the list Karond posted in regards to turn resistance. While some are PnP accurate, many are NOT and make bosses and even some mobs unturnable when they should not be. This is simply a modification on the server that makes turning less useful arbitrarily as it is not lore / setting accurate.

Sorry folks, QC only, but posting link as to where I'm coming from BMD:

http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=197&t ... ad&start=0

[Calodan]

My main pc is a near pure paladin with more skill points in useless crud than I know what to do with. She's also never PvPed. Ever. She doesn't even PvE. I have other things to do, but did even before I was a DM. She's also a paladin with (I think) 14 INT. No combat expertise. Uses a longsword. Not because it is a good weapon but because that was the weapon I chose. Your argument about crazy overpowered classes making RP 'work' is flawed in one grand sense - they work anyway, they just aren't strong. Well - to be blunt - tough. Nerfing one powerful class will bring the power dynamics of the whole server down a lot. It'll mean we need to look at encounters without the FvS distorting the balance. That is a good thing for RP.

Yes. I hate multiclassing. I think it dilutes characters. The classes in a class based RPG represent their skill sets. Except now we have literally hundreds of them and people use them to fill out stat sheets. I like to imagine characters have a reason for their progression. They rarely do.

If you wish to have some comeback on me because I 'insulted' your class (I said nothing about concepts - Hoar is in fact missing a worthy PrC for cases like yours) then please don't hesitate to send a complaint to the HDMs. However I think personally you wanted a powerful character and the FvS was your way in. To be blunt - your right to have a strong character doesn't subsume everyone else's rights to have a fairly balanced server.

I think we got off in the wrong direction and that is my fault.

I want a fair and balanced server. I want people to be able to play in a PvE event and not have to have some over balanced skill somewhere to survive. I crave a server where all the parts are equal to the whole of what is happening. Where there is no need for such powerful characters to not spend your days in Fugue hell in PvE. I have been one of the most accepting of this thought process. I do not relish that true, but it is what it is in the interest of what is good for the whole server.

On a more personal note I am sure there are many reasons why the DM team brought you on and I of all people should know better than to get all up in arms over some ones opinion. You are entitled to it just as I am mine. I guess this is a sensitive subject more to me than I am willing to admit as it is just a few bits of electronic data in the end. For me I can not just re-build another concept of similar RP. I would have to move on to something else. Maybe use the same gear and all but the RP would have to change. Kory is just now entrenching RP into the realm here. It took years. That is the scope of this server. It took years to establish his contacts, friends, foes and all the nuances that flesh a PC out and create a story. So in ending I apologize for calling you out publicly like that.

[arakes99]

In all fairness Calodan I see no reason to nerf non EDM FvS. They aren't too far out of line with bard/clerics/druids and others anyway.

[Calodan]

Oh yes it has been established already this change only changes how you have to build a EDM FvS really. It is the switching of base stats needed for DC and spells. WIS for spells. So in order to cast level 9 spells you need 19 WIS instead of 19 CHA. This changes Kory's RP. It also changes gear. I have a +3 CHA item to cast level 9 spells. So in essence is does cause a change for me. I would just retire him at that point and move on. I am okay with this. If that is what is good for the server then so be it. I do have reasons I want to see it stay as is and just limit it by other means but I am not so selfish as to want this for a PC that I have attachment issues to. In fact it may be good for me to have to retire him finally and move on. Therapeutic of sorts......