Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2020)

[chad878262]

Some texts are in french, too (like "you are in a full pvp area now" or "feat aquired: evasion")

Sneaky Valefort...trying to change the official common tongue of BGtSCC to French... Soon he will have all of us bowing to the new overlord. Vive la Valefort!!!

[yyj]

First off: splendid that it's up!

Server transitions seem not working at the moment.

Farmlands -> Thundars Ride and Sharpwood -> Deeper Sharpwood returned the message "error: could not load module" and the game crashed.
Some texts are in french, too (like "you are in a full pvp area now" or "feat aquired: evasion")

EDIT: Characters that crashed during such a transition seem to receive the "could not load module" error upon next login and therefore cannot be used after such a crash.

That is just a missing area, try a different character otherwise server reset or area getting added later, but that is just my educated guess.

[Valefort]

Hmm try connecting to 86.253.172.101:5122 directly maybe

[VillageGreenWitch]

Hmm . . logged in on another char (which happened to be a gray orc), could at the surface only spawn in Soubar (which is intented, I think), trans to Boareskyr Bridge worked, the transitions to Troll claws west (?) and Thundars Ride were not named, I took the right one and was ported back to the Nexus.

EDIT: at this second attempt the spawning at BG harbour worked with the gray orc.
EDIT to the EDIT: trans to farmlands worked fine, trans to Thundars crashed, "error loading module".

[Hoihe]

This thingy seems to affect the treasure chests found from treasure maps too.

Found a treasure map pointing to Ulgoth's, tracked it down and found 40 gold.

[Tanlaus]

This thingy seems to affect the treasure chests found from treasure maps too.

Found a treasure map pointing to Ulgoth's, tracked it down and found 40 gold.

I’m not sure that’s any worse than any of the buried treasure I’ve ever found.

To you’re point though I do feel like buried treasure maps should lead to top tier chests. Makes it worth the effort of finding them.

[Winterborne]

I for one think that the mindset of "adventuring should never guarantee profit" is an antiquated one that is not fun or viable in the current landscape. Should at least make enough vendor trash to cover consumable use and if this isn't done via adding loot it should be done by reducing cost of consumables.

There should never be so much variance that you have to wonder if your high level chest is broken or you just rolled bad. A bad roll on a good chest should always still provide you enough that you know it's not bugged out out of your level range. Full stop.

[zhazz]

I for one think that the mindset of "adventuring should never guarantee profit" is an antiquated one that is not fun or viable in the current landscape. Should at least make enough vendor trash to cover consumable use and if this isn't done via adding loot it should be done by reducing cost of consumables.

There should never be so much variance that you have to wonder if your high level chest is broken or you just rolled bad. A bad roll on a good chest should always still provide you enough that you know it's not bugged out out of your level range. Full stop.

I don't fully agree with this stance. Adventuring is taking a gamble. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

What I do agree with, however, is that on average over time there should be a profit from adventuring. The real issue lies with how that average is defined. If the average doesn't generate profit before 20 attempts, then it is far too punishing and discouraging. However, if the average generates profit after 5 attempts, then it might be more enjoyable.

Which brings another issue entirely:
Just how big of a profit is to be expected on average?

If the profit for CR27+ on average after 5 attempts is only 2,000 gold (10,000 total), then it is likely to feel just as bad as making 20 attempts before generating profit. Obviously the average profit shouldn't be ridiculously high either. Maybe 5,000 gold on average (25,000 total over 5 attempts).

Obviously this is a difficult metric to not only define and compute, but also to program. Yet I cannot help but feel that such is necessary in some small way.

[Theodore01]

Durlag's Labyrinth Level 3 is a CR 22 area.
However, the Elemental Challenges down there are labeled as CR30.

Are the chests inside these challenge rooms set correctly for CR30 rewards?

[Snarfy]

Got bored, did another quick run:

Nashkel mines chests:
~ 41 gp, silver necklace
~ 46 gp, amethyst
~ 57 gp, +3 heal kit
~ 23 gp, Shuriken(61) +1
~ 296 gp
~ 13 gp, Ring of protection +2, Arrows of lesser slowing(220)
~ 690 gp, bone wand
~ 49gp, Tools +1, fire agate
~ 704gp
... didn't do pit fiend room.
---------------------------------

Crystal Caves chests:
~ 288 gp, potion of deflection
~ 146 gp, Longbow +1/+2 CON/Mighty +2, +10 heal kit
~ 490 gp, Gloves of the Yellow rose
~ 34 gp, topaz
~ Boss chest ~ Gloves EB +2, Half Plate of ??? (I left it there)
~ 724 gp
---------------------------------

[gedweyignasia]

As one can see from this 3rd run, and the previous 2 runs, chests are not providing me with anything great, or even valuable except as trash sells for coin.

I know that 3 runs can feel like a lot to players, but from a statistical standpoint, this sample is about 10x too small to draw any inferences from.

[Steve]

As one can see from this 3rd run, and the previous 2 runs, chests are not providing me with anything great, or even valuable except as trash sells for coin.

I know that 3 runs can feel like a lot to players, but from a statistical standpoint, this sample is about 10x too small to draw any inferences from.

I’ll go for 10 then...and when my eyes start bleeding and my brain explodes, I’m coming over to you!!

[chad878262]

Got bored, did another quick run:

Nashkel mines chests:
~ 41 gp, silver necklace
~ 46 gp, amethyst
~ 57 gp, +3 heal kit
~ 23 gp, Shuriken(61) +1
~ 296 gp
~ 13 gp, Ring of protection +2, Arrows of lesser slowing(220)
~ 690 gp, bone wand
~ 49gp, Tools +1, fire agate
~ 704gp
... didn't do pit fiend room.
---------------------------------

Crystal Caves chests:
~ 288 gp, potion of deflection
~ 146 gp, Longbow +1/+2 CON/Mighty +2, +10 heal kit
~ 490 gp, Gloves of the Yellow rose
~ 34 gp, topaz
~ Boss chest ~ Gloves EB +2, Half Plate of ??? (I left it there)
~ 724 gp
---------------------------------

Assuming selling the bone wand on the AH for 3,000 gold and everything else to Blunt and without considering what the half plate might have been worth I estimate this to be a total value in gold an items sold to be just over 15,000 gold. Is that considered not good enough? It honestly matches up with about what I average for going through Frost Giant Keep, Lich Cave and Elite Lizard Cave plus 3 exterior chests in cloudpeaks (by chests I mean the locked holes where the giant wyrm-like things spawn). I consider that to be a decent amount of gold, but perhaps I am wrong?

As one can see from this 3rd run, and the previous 2 runs, chests are not providing me with anything great, or even valuable except as trash sells for coin.

I know that 3 runs can feel like a lot to players, but from a statistical standpoint, this sample is about 10x too small to draw any inferences from.

I’ll go for 10 then...and when my eyes start bleeding and my brain explodes, I’m coming over to you!!

My personal opinion is that you can thank removal of item restrictions, constantly shrinking player base, muling and epic shops for this, it is not an issue with the loot itself. Finding a +2 item with extra's, outside a few very rare exceptions (most of which come from the RIG, rather than loot table) is no longer going to sell on Auction House, so it is now vendor trash/not interesting. I am not saying you are 'wrong' Steve, but I do think that there is very little that can be done about it. When I calculate out your 3rd run based on what you sell to Blunt it comes to about 21,000 gold without including the two +4 shields. When I calculate out the estimate of the value of your 2nd run (the worst of the 3) I come up with about 13,000 gold, so for the best and worst runs the average is 17,000 gold, plus 2 epic items (low epic, but +4 shields are still considered epic by the loot table, as they should be). Same question I asked Snarfy, is this not considered 'good enough'?

I am not sure what folks are looking to get from adventuring in general, but taking these two examples (and I can look at others if it's needed, but I imagine it is likely somewhat consistent) it matches with my experience which I personally feel is pretty fair. However, I make no claim to speak for all of you and I am just wondering subjectively if folks feel like ~15K for clearing a full epic area on average is not enough?

[yyj]

15k for clearing an epic dungeon but also having lost the ability to make the same gold in a low level dungeon is gone is what I think is the problem.

Looting a rare item feels nice as opposed to silver rings and that, and some people have to spend gold in order to complete dungeons and these days you cannot just go to hilltop to recover.

Epic shops are great because they are an option for rare items, otherwise we would be paying millions, or even more for those items and the gap would be even bigger.

This is not an MMO so solutions that apply to that don't work here, OOC mechanically restricting player options for getting gold is basically what stirred up the pot and made many people uncomfortable, me included when the changes were new.

I am not saying I am angry or mad now, just trying to explain exactly why 15k gold for looting an epic area is rather lackluster, not because of the gold itself but all the context.

I think it's just a matter of time before an stability is found again. I am trusting Steve crafting system, when implemented, will help out with this.

[chad878262]

Thank you yyj, I appreciate you providing some context, though I personally don't feel the need to support that particular style, I do understand it. I am going to use your post to give some thoughts, but understand these are my personal opinions to the general statements which are probably mirrored by other folks as opposed to a staff response specifically to you. If anything I tend to consider you one of the folks that was initially very unhappy, but perhaps has come around to understanding and maybe being somewhat ok with the changes, if not 100% in agreement with them.

15k for clearing an epic dungeon but also having lost the ability to make the same gold in a low level dungeon is gone is what I think is the problem.

Personally I have absolutely zero interest in supporting this type of play. While I understand *some* high level PCs would RP with lower levels my personal experience was having epic toons blaze through and past me, kill bosses/clear areas making it essentially just a chest gathering exercise for my appropriate level PC which is not what I want to play, nor those who were in my party. However, seeing as most of those I group with, like me only play an hour or two we can't just sit and wait for 15-20 minutes until bosses respawn. While I agree with the idea of figuring out mechanics for alternate ways to earn gold without doing dungeons, I will never agree with supporting mechanics that encourage players to OOC dungeon run no risk areas. (especially when I have personally witnessed such players later IC'ly bashing 'adventurer' PCs about to go to a dungeon while explaining they would never go to such places).

Looting a rare item feels nice as opposed to silver rings and that, and some people have to spend gold in order to complete dungeons and these days you cannot just go to hilltop to recover.

This is the issue I called out in response to Steve... It used to be nice to find a pair of +3 dodge boots or +3 deflection item. It used to be really nice to find a +3 weapon with extra's that made it better than a plain +4 item. The issues called out in my previous post have made it so the nice to find/rare items are less possible to find even though the chance for epic items has increased. Greater items are no longer rare or interesting since almost everything is just not good enough for anything besides Blunt. So a +2 item or a +3 item with extra's are essentially all with 1,400 gold. item level restriction removal, muling between PCs, fewer players and, of course epic shops are the cause, not the looting itself. This is not opinion but objective fact, considering that all the +3 items that have been posted would be worth far more if folks couldn't buy full sets of hellshop gear and mule them to level 1 PCs.

Epic shops are great because they are an option for rare items, otherwise we would be paying millions, or even more for those items and the gap would be even bigger.

Epic shops were very much needed when they went in. However, they were supposed to 'bridge the gap' by providing for +4 items, maybe with a couple other bonuses. Instead they are better than all, but a very few exception items from the Loot table. Outside of those few exceptions the only thing that can be found which competes or occasionally might be better than epic shop gear is stuff you might get (if you are super lucky) from the RIG, which mostly comes from boss drops, not chests.

This is not an MMO so solutions that apply to that don't work here, OOC mechanically restricting player options for getting gold is basically what stirred up the pot and made many people angry, me included when the changes were new.

Fair enough, and I know that there are multiple ideas on the table to address alternative ways to earn gold IC. However, the idea of gold accrual is and has always been that you should not get something for nothing. Risk should closely align to reward so there is not a desire to just populate gold to PC's for logging in.

just trying to explain exactly why 15k gold for looting an epic area is rather lackluster, not because of the gold itself but all the context.

My subjective opinion is that it's a case of 'careful what you wish for' not for individual players, but the server population as a whole. That 15K, 4 years ago would have amounted to a lot more, because there was value in items besides epic level gear. Greater gear was the norm, and thus folks would pay 30-100K for such items. Heck, a Silver Longsword +3 w/ 1d4 fire damage was worth 600K gold! Now, that is ridiculous, but unfortunately what occurred is a 180 too far in the other direction, which there is no easy way to fix. This is why we try to take more measured approach to changes and request feedback to address where possible.

Thank you again for the candid feedback, it is very much appreciated and I hope others will give their opinions as well.