Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

What happens if you have a cleric bereft of the true believer feat then? I thought clerics and paladins were true believers by default!

The original question had to do with characters who were not already favoured by their god in some way. "True Believer" is a confirmation of faith that yes, clerics/priests/FS/DC/pally's etc would already have - the ability for other players to take this feat means to me that there can also be some kind of divine revelation whereby anyone could become a TB. Taking the feat alone without having the ability to cast magic spells (given to the character via prayer/worship/devotion, etc. by their god) to me really only means that that character really believes in their heart that their god exists - no powers given. If you are going to take this feat on this kind of character then I would assume you are doing it for RP purposes only.

Continuing the thought of divine magic though, does a cleric who forsakes their god lose the TB feat? What happens if it is accidental as in a palidon unintentionally killing a good person? Would they lose their divine power (spells, etc.) but retain the TB feat?

It's weird for this type of a game to have a feat determining (limiting) character's behaviour. I thought behaviour was the RP stuff dependable solely on the player? Does that mean that if I don't have 'noodle lover' feat, I hate noodles and cannot RP otherwise?

DM Arkanis wrote:Continuing the thought of divine magic though, does a cleric who forsakes their god lose the TB feat? What happens if it is accidental as in a palidon unintentionally killing a good person? Would they lose their divine power (spells, etc.) but retain the TB feat?

I suppose that would depend on the character. A paladin can presumably fall but still continue to worship their former patron, in which case they'd be no different from a fighter who took the feat, or they could push back against the deity who has forsaken them, and lose it.

One thought this topic has raised - surely characters with the true believer feat should be forbidden from using the deity change NPC in the Nexus?

DM Arkanis wrote: Continuing the thought of divine magic though, does a cleric who forsakes their god lose the TB feat?

Until a new god eventually grants the cleric his/her favour, yes. I'd say so.

DM Arkanis wrote:What happens if it is accidental as in a palidon unintentionally killing a good person? Would they lose their divine power (spells, etc.) but retain the TB feat?

Paladins don't fall from grace by accident, I think.

I RP a cleric character quite heavily focused on the religious aspects and it is interesting questions about the True Believer feat. I actually discussed it with another player quite recently, how we should view it as we did not think it was very clear.

DM Arkanis wrote:Continuing the thought of divine magic though, does a cleric who forsakes their god lose the TB feat?

I would say yes. True Believer requires utter devotion and not wavering in one's faith. A deity would not grant the boon to someone who was questioning their faith (the feat being more a boon in PnP terms). I would not advice anyone to RP having doubts in their character's faith if they had this feat - it should not happen. The only exception being if something major occurred that rocked the character's foundations. So something like a character flaw where the character doubts his faith in difficult situations is not really proper... A deity change should also not happen unless something major occurred.

DM Arkanis wrote:What happens if it is accidental as in a palidon unintentionally killing a good person? Would they lose their divine power (spells, etc.) but retain the TB feat?

This is a bit of an unclear area. In PnP, a paladin can get immediate feedback from the DM (god/church). As I understand it, it is the cleric and not the deity that decides the penalty. In the most heinous violations, a deity may strike against the paladin directly. When it comes to a paladin falling from grace, I am unsure if it is the deity who immediately decides to cut off the powerline or the cleric who decides that it should happen. In some violations, being stripped of -some- powers is listed as an -option-, kind of hinting at that there is a choice and that someone has to make that decision. Is anyone able to clear that up...?

So, does the paladin lose his powers and the TB feat? I would say no. He can still be utterly devoted, a careless action has consequences which he understands even though his actions were not deliberate - he did not directly act against his church or god. The god may see this and that the paladin wishes to atone. Thus True Believer is retained. If however the paladin has no intentions to atone and continues to act against the church and the god, the deity would be far less pleased and TB would be revoked. In essence, I see the feat as a mutual thing that the character and the deity both recognize. Loss of paladin powers and retaining TB is possible, as long as the character continues to act in line with the deity's dogma.

((I had a section of if a paladin should fall if he unintentionally killed someone but my PC froze so its gone. Basically, the conclusion I came to was that in PnP it would be easier to sway to YES as paladins have Detect Evil, which we do not have on the server. I would rather be lenient than harsh due to that fact. If the paladin unintentionally killed a good person due to carelessness he may fall or not have access to -some- of his powers (carelessness is heavily penalized). If it was a nearly unavoidable situation, days of prayer or a heavy tithe seems proper. Perhaps including apologizing to the victim's family in person (depending on what the situation was).))

Hat if we call it "Steadfast believer" and let it grant a +1 to will saves and a lvl 1 bonus spell slot?

Wasn't it added as a pre-req for a Prc? I don't think it needs anything added. Mechanically it is payment for what you'll get later. Techsmith requires the craft wondrous items feat which is also mechanically purposeless here, just prepayment on future power imo.

Servin wrote:It's weird for this type of a game to have a feat determining (limiting) character's behaviour. I thought behaviour was the RP stuff dependable solely on the player? Does that mean that if I don't have 'noodle lover' feat, I hate noodles and cannot RP otherwise?

http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Feat:_True_Believer

Possessing this feat means that your character has almost unshakable faith, is less prone to doubt. It does not a-contrario mean that characters without this feat are not true believers. They are merely more prone to doubt. This feat confers no benefits because faith is its own reward.

I must confess, I often find the most entertaining RP I derive from divine types, is when they're in doubt or shaken... Playing the untouchable and unshakable who never hesitates or harbour doubts, is fun and all in the short run. But never running into any bumps (either up or down), would take a lot of fun out of the divine RP for me.

I'm not suggesting that clerics should switch their allegiance to a new deity like the rest of us switch our underwear (i.e. once a month)... but gradually over months, maybe even years, of RP and a hectic servitude as both an adventure and a servant of a god, you'll find some clashes or injustices so profound that it would be inhuman not to question yourself.

Some people just share their deities outlook on life as their own. It doesn't mean you won't doubt or ever change your mind. Just that you are very resilient against such influences, precisely because your own beliefs perfectly overlap with the deity. They can still disagree with church dogma though. The Church doesn't always interpret the deity correctly. They can have arguments over dogma, how to act in a practical sense to apply the deities teachings, and so forth.

For most clerics and believers having such a perfect overlap of outlooks with their deity wouldn't be the case. They would still be true believers in the deity though. You don't entirely need to agree with your deity to be a Cleric. You're allowed to have a different opinion. Just not on matters that are so fundamental that they would put you at odds with your deity. Because in that case the deity will normally abandon you. Then you turn to another deity who matches better, or become faithless.

Would Joan of Arc be a good example of a real-life, True Believer?

Sure, by all acounts she was resolute in her faith. Though I won't go so far as to say that she embodied the christian deity

Perhaps a better example would the prophet of each major real life religion. Abraham, Jezus, Mohammed. Perhaps consider Buddha as well. You could rightly call each of them a zealot for their particular outlook on life and sprirituality. That's what True faith as a feat is. But it doesn't mean other people can't believe or be zealots. They're just not quite SO zealous.

Which you could also consider a more sane approach to life. As Considerate writes. But lets veer away from real life examples now.

Planehopper wrote:Wasn't it added as a pre-req for a Prc? I don't think it needs anything added. Mechanically it is payment for what you'll get later. Techsmith requires the craft wondrous items feat which is also mechanically purposeless here, just prepayment on future power imo.

If I am not mistaken, it is a pre-req for Shadow Adept.

If I am not mistaken, it is a pre-req for Shadow Adept

It is also a pre-req for Silverstar of Selune and the upcoming Solar Channeler PRC