Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[chad878262]

It should also be noted for Kory and other FS players that any changes would likely be on the relatively small side and would probably be done in 'baby steps'... These changes are also a ways off if they come at all, considering right now discussion is more about if any changes should be made. Once that decision is made, if it is determined we should make a change there is the long process of discussing what change(s), what is the impact on dev? impact on DM staff? players? etc... As stated previously I am in favor of reduced/removed ability of FS to get TU ability and, thus EDM. However, that doesn't mean that is a 'majority' or even semi-popular opinion. So for FS players my advice would be to provide your opinions, certainly, but understand that it is entirely possible that any change (if any at all) may not even impact your character, specifically. The idea of switching out CHA/WIS for casting is a discussion item, but not the only one so thinking in terms of that or any other change as 'going to happen' is at the very least premature.

Again, as the title indicates we are looking for input and opinions, if there are any left that remain unsaid. We are not trying to argue the validity of anyone's RP or character build decisions. QC is about the numbers, we try very hard to leave lore, rp, etc. elsewhere, or to at least dismiss anything not related to balance/numbers from the decision making process.

Enjoy your RP everyone.

[Akroma666]

After reading peoples views I feel the following:

1. The stat change is NOT and option at this point because of rp and play styles
2. The spells known drop won't do anything but limit RP (the class is piegon whole rp anyways) and should be pushed through.
3. The DR 10 is clearly unbalanced as normally this would take a heavy feat and attribute investment, this should be removed.
4. While people somewhat complain about the EDM, I think its unrealistic to limit the classes by saying no crossclassing with paladin, cleric, BG. The ability is a god channel more or less and these classes are a embodiment of their gods.. Let it go and let them have EDM and crossclass.
5. Haste on this caster is icing on the cake. Needs to be removed for balance and can be replaced with a feat that is more appropriate to wings. Maybe access to fast movement +10 and the ability to give themselves visable wings based on your alignment? That way they open themselves up to PvP rp? Quick fix: remove.
6. Fighter feats are a minor problem, leave that up to QC to remove or leave, but I would leave them alone for the first round of nurfs and see bow the balance to the class is received.

The class is strong mechanically.. Not a lot we can do without neutering it outright. I think we can do a few minor tweeks to bring it down (listed above), but overall it should be left alone.

[RedLancer]

If you removed the innate DR, energy resistance, and Haste ability, it would still be comparable to Cleric.

[Boddynock]

Yes. I hate multiclassing. I think it dilutes characters. The classes in a class based RPG represent their skill sets. Except now we have literally hundreds of them and people use them to fill out stat sheets. I like to imagine characters have a reason for their progression. They rarely do.

Well, this still rings of a very jaded point of view, and not really supported by lore (Elminster has levels in 5 classes, Drizt in 3, Simbul in 3, for example). The fact of our situation is we don't have characters that develop organically because this isn't a table top campaign where everyone plays together all the time and we all know what is going on etc. It is an MMO that we do a very very good job of turning into a roleplay experience.

Us doing a good job doesn't change the fact that a character's backstory is often already written before they are created, and that they often are not created at level one. So when you hold the view that people are "just doing it to fill a stat sheet" that may be true in some cases, but you are making the choice to hold that point of view and all it will net you is aggravation. Choose instead to give people the benefit of the doubt and ask what the backstory is. Or learn about their toons ICly, develop a friendship.

And back to the topic of FvS, I have already shared my views on the implementation of the class...but from a purely mechanical standpoint I don't really care that they are powerful, some classes are by default more powerful than others, but some of the things could stand to be scaled back or reworked. 5 DR instead of 10? One energy immunuty instead of 3? *shrugs* NOthing neesd to outright get pulled, just revamped. It would also be very very cool if some of the choices that FvS got to make were taken out of the equation. FvS are favored, they aren't picking what gifts they are blessed with, it should be based on deity. The DR type and energy resistance(s) should be automatic based of deity, and that decision based off whatever might hep the FvS fight enemies of the faith/deity/dogma.

For example, Lathander is a popular religion, and Lathander hates undeads... A FvS of Lathander should get to level 5 and be granted negative energy resistance, because that is likely to be used by undead and necromancers, Aurilites would get fire resist, Kossuthians would get ice...see where I am getting with this? Would going in and coding that be a LOT of work? Probably, but would it make more sense RPly and be something that could be done in conjunction with the work of scaling them back? Absolutely.

[RedLancer]

If you rip out, completely, the DR, Haste ability, and Energy Resistances, the class is still in the upper echelon of power scaling. How do we keep coming back to "toning it down" or sweating EDM?

[Boddynock]

If you rip out, completely, the DR, Haste ability, and Energy Resistances, the class is still in the upper echelon of power scaling. How do we keep coming back to "toning it down" or sweating EDM?

Because someone will always be at the top. Having a class at the top is not justification for a nerf. If it is so far ahead of the pack it can be brought down a bit without ripping off the top entirely.

I don't care if FvS are still winning the power race, if they are only winning by inches. General consensus now is that they are winning by miles. Get rid of the miles, problem solved, but someone will still be at the top of the heap, I don't really care if it is them or not.

[aaron22]

And back to the topic of FvS, I have already shared my views on the implementation of the class...but from a purely mechanical standpoint I don't really care that they are powerful, some classes are by default more powerful than others, but some of the things could stand to be scaled back or reworked. 5 DR instead of 10? One energy immunuty instead of 3? *shrugs* NOthing neesd to outright get pulled, just revamped. It would also be very very cool if some of the choices that FvS got to make were taken out of the equation. FvS are favored, they aren't picking what gifts they are blessed with, it should be based on deity. The DR type and energy resistance(s) should be automatic based of deity, and that decision based off whatever might hep the FvS fight enemies of the faith/deity/dogma.

For example, Lathander is a popular religion, and Lathander hates undeads... A FvS of Lathander should get to level 5 and be granted negative energy resistance, because that is likely to be used by undead and necromancers, Aurilites would get fire resist, Kossuthians would get ice...see where I am getting with this? Would going in and coding that be a LOT of work? Probably, but would it make more sense RPly and be something that could be done in conjunction with the work of scaling them back? Absolutely.

i like this. i dont know about the programming aspect of it and it sounds hard, but seems cool. maybe even narrow it down to have the haste buff instead of the DR and Resistances if it would fit into the dogma moreso than the others and DR instead if the deity is mre inline with that. etc etc. i still think it needs to use wis for spellbook and cha for DC's but otherwise it sounds more intersting. i would just hope that we didnt see alot of the FvS all from one deity because it gives the highest mechanical advantage.

[Boddynock]

i like this. i dont know about the programming aspect of it and it sounds hard, but seems cool. maybe even narrow it down to have the haste buff instead of the DR and Resistances if it would fit into the dogma moreso than the others and DR instead if the deity is mre inline with that. etc etc. i still think it needs to use wis for spellbook and cha for DC's but otherwise it sounds more intersting. i would just hope that we didnt see alot of the FvS all from one deity because it gives the highest mechanical advantage.

It might be possible to start with a group of like minded faiths. Like all LG faiths get the same benefits, all NG, all CG. If you do it by alignment you start with nine basic groups instead of doing it for each and every deity, that cuts down on the work load. Then you make exceptions only when and where they need to be made. Like (just as a ranom example) CG FvS might get energy resistance fire 10, but favored of Sune might get acid and fire 5, cause fire and acid would scar and defile their beauty. There is a lot of potential there to have FvS fit in on the powerscale, have more appropriate gifts to their faiths, and they still get to keep the favoured soul "I'm special"ness that they have going for them right now.

Edit: Just as an addition, if we wanted to explore this route, it wouldn't have to be limited to energy resistance and DR. A favored of Ilmater might get augment healing and skill focus: heal, instead of weapon focus and spec, for example. It might sound like a lot, but if we are going to open the floor for discussions on how to really make this class fit in mechanically and still be fun to play, I think exploring options like this is the way to do it. Make the class support the RP and I wager people will still want to play it because it will be cool, regardless of where it ends up on the power spectrum.

[Garn Greymoon]

Here's a brief comparison of the divine casters:

Favored Soul:

BAB Medium
Saves: High: F/W/R
Spellcasting: Charisma (Spells) Wisdom (DC)
Deity's Weapon
Deity's Weapon Focus
Deity's Weapon Spec
Energy Resist (3)
Damage Reduction 10
Haste

Cleric:

BAB Medium
Saves: High: F/W Low: R
Spellcasting: Wisdom (DC & Bonus Spells)
Turn Undead
Domains (2): Additional Spells, Additional Abilities, or Additional Feats


So looking at the above you've got some pro's and con's.

Pro:

Cleric: 1 dump stat for casting
Cleric: Heavy Armor = Higher AC
Cleric: Turn Undead = the much beloved divine might / shield pre-req
Cleric: 2 domains, these can be extremely powerful such as allowing you to re-roll failed saves
FvS: 3 Energy Resists
FvS: 10 Damage Reduction
FvS: 3 Feats aimed at 1 weapon
FvS: 3 high saves

Con:

Cleric: Need to sacrifice some stats if you want to cheese divine might
FvS: if you want to be a spellcaster you need high CHA & WIS
FvS: low armor class w/o taking a feat for heavy armor
FvS: need to multi-class to get the cheesy divine might

So apples to apples, the two classes both are quite different and if you want to continue the argument how powerful a FvS, i suggest you took a look at any build that abuses dump stats.

How about:

Bard + Paladin / Blackguard
Sorc + Paladin / Blackguard
Cleric + Monk

If you guys think a FvS is OP right now, try a bard. Also why are we really complaining about it when there's what...3, maybe 4 players on the server that may play one on a regular basis? Once again if you really want to min-max and be a munchkin this can be done pretty easily on any class.

If there's going to be a re-work of the class if you take something away, replace it with something in kind that's relevant to it's design.

[jordanreiss89]

I have to disagree with you Garn. The cons for the cleric opposed to the favored soul i think should look a little more like this.

Cons
FVS: No Heavy armor.
FVS: No domains **IMO biggest con.
FVS: No Turn Undead
FVS: Two stats for casting (but i barely consider this a con considering its the melee power/survive ability people are saying is overpowered. and I believe most FVS or melee oriented.)
FVS: Less spells to select from but they have enough to get all the good ones plus some RP spells (So again i barely consider this a con. i actually added it as an after thought just to try and cover everything. )

Most of the FVS cons con be removed with a 4 level dip in cleric, pally, or BG.

C: No DR
C: No WF
C: No WS (fighter only feat)
C: 3 less energy resistances
C: No reflex save
C: No Haste 3/a day
C: Far less spells per day (more available spells but their list of spells only has so many really good ones.
C: far less synergy with Paladin/BG to gain Charisma to saves*** Which just to get EDM you have to have 21. so 24 with a +3 stat. So +7 to saves.***

Now i haven't played a FVS from level 1 to 30. But i did RCR one of my lvl 30 toons into the class to see how powerful it was. It made running the server bosses so much easier than with any other build i tried. (i have not tried the bard). Now you can say that its only broken from cross classing or what not. but the fact is most people do due to the difficulty of the server. My main character is a F/WM/Tempest/WD. and i do kill enemies faster unless they have Crit immune or high DR. Then i am stopped in my tracks. And my survive ability is no where close to the FVS. I even made a F/FB/WM and same as my build. Kills quicker. does not have the survive ablilty. The list goes on. many power builds.. but not as powerful as this build.

I understand people don't want to change the character they have put so much time into. But from what i have seen this class is so powerful it takes the fun out of it for everyone not playing one when this class is around and tanking. :/ Just my opinion.

[Garn Greymoon]

Here's the thing I'm judging this class solely as is with NO multi classing. Also yes agreed it's got great survivability but each combination offers a different thing in play. Some combinations are faster at killing monsters some are more durable.

If we are judging class synergies lets do so to all classes as we will find a lot of broken builds if we want to scrutinize. I can start linking to builds if I need to cite some examples.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I want to ask one thing though. What is a favored souls weakness? When built properly it has fantastic Reflex, Fortitude, and Willpower. It buffs its AC so high and has such fantastic DR that even Dwarven Defenders are put to shame. It has such great AB and damage that Weapon masters stare in awe. It's HP is solid enough that no divine trap will ever surprise it. It has spells for days and plenty of room for RP spells. It has the important armor and weapon proficiencies (medium for mithral anyone?).

IT HAS NO WEAKNESS

Dragon druids lack significant damage output but can tank for days. FB/WM can hit fast and hard but can not stay in the fight forever. Hipsters always have at least one low save. What I am getting at is all other classes (save perhaps Bard) can face adversity whether in PVP, PVE, or Events. A FS never faces adversity. Nothing poses a challenge unless it is a clear attempt to TPK by a DM or the ancient white dragon.

Arguments against nerfing are all based on a few points.

"Well nerf this now and the nerf bat will strike down classes until the server is ruined" - fear mongering. The fact this took 8 years is proof the QC has enough control not to do this.

"FS is only one strong class amongst many" - deflecting. It is by far the strongest class and totally in a league by itself. They are not talking about making it Barbarian weak. They are talking about making it only marginally the best class on the server.

"If my class is changed I will stop playing" - guilt trip. Nobody will have to quit unless they only play because they are the best. An inability to min-max attributes on an ooc character sheet does not destroy IC RP. All current builds will remain possible and totally viable.

"I invested RP into this" - The first solid argument I have heard but it is not against nerfing at all. It is against renaming the class. Perhaps they could nerf all the FS as proposed but let players grandfather in the class name?

"It affects what gear I use" - The second solid argument. I don't think it is a huge issue but maybe a DM could offer fair exchanges for a limited time? +3 cha ring for +3 wis ring or some such? The exchanges would have to be limited to a few types of items though so people don't try to abuse it.

I don't know what else to say other than the main reason I am for the nerf is that FS have ruined many events for me over the years. I don't care about PVE, I don't care about PVP. I care about RP and I care about events. SO when I get in an event and the DM is clearly catering to keeping the one FS engaged and challenged and ignoring the 10 other players that are repeatedly dying I cannot help but notice this is an issue. Players that play FS may not realize it. I suspect y'all may not care. I do though and obviously many others do.

/rant

[Xanfyrst]

I don't know what else to say other than the main reason I am for the nerf is that FS have ruined many events for me over the years. I don't care about PVE, I don't care about PVP. I care about RP and I care about events. SO when I get in an event and the DM is clearly catering to keeping the one FS engaged and challenged and ignoring the 10 other players that are repeatedly dying I cannot help but notice this is an issue. Players that play FS may not realize it. I suspect y'all may not care. I do though and obviously many others do.

/rant

That's not the fault of the class, but the DMs. Would it be my fault if a DM catered to me specifically in their events and ignoring everyone else? And DMs also have access to the character sheets of the players in their events. So if they can see someone being significantly more mechanically powerful than others, he/she can have a quick talk with said player about it and ask them politely to "restrict" themselves during the events combat parts.

[Tsidkenu]

I did set forth the suggestion in the QC forums that I felt a good way of balancing out FS multiclasses with Pal/BG/Cler for EDM was to cap Divine Might/ Divine Shield and also CHA to Saving Throws at 1 point (still x2 for EDM) of Damage/AC/Saves per class level that grants Turn Undead.

This has the byproduct of affecting all such dip builds, including Bard/BG, while leaving pure classes relatively untouched (because by the time a Pal/BG/Cler has 8+ levels they're pretty much getting their whole CHA bonus to those abilities following the above formula).

A FS 26/Pal 4 will only get +4 to saving throws and +4 AC/ +4 (+8 EDM) damage for divine shield/divine might. Useful still, but not as great as it was.

It leaves FS players the choice of increasing their dip to compensate for the potential loss (with the flip-side of pushing their CL below 30, practised spellcaster considered), or just accepting the minor boost a 3 or 4 level dip would grant. Note that this would affect ALL dips involving (E)DM/DS, so that's something that needs to be weighed against.

[RagingPeace]

I don't know what else to say other than the main reason I am for the nerf is that FS have ruined many events for me over the years. I don't care about PVE, I don't care about PVP. I care about RP and I care about events. SO when I get in an event and the DM is clearly catering to keeping the one FS engaged and challenged and ignoring the 10 other players that are repeatedly dying I cannot help but notice this is an issue. Players that play FS may not realize it. I suspect y'all may not care. I do though and obviously many others do.

/rant

That's not the fault of the class, but the DMs. Would it be my fault if a DM catered to me specifically in their events and ignoring everyone else? And DMs also have access to the character sheets of the players in their events. So if they can see someone being significantly more mechanically powerful than others, he/she can have a quick talk with said player about it and ask them politely to "restrict" themselves during the events combat parts.

Isn't that a pretty good sign that something needs to be powered down? :p