Possible QC change - Community input appreciated

[Aelcar]

I had promised a friend I wouldn't post anymore, but he had promised me he wouldn't quit DMing first, so I am sure he won't mind this little...exception.

I read this thread entirely, and I have to agree with those feeling the majority of posts come more from "gut feelings" rather than hard facts or true problems.

- What is currently available

EDM Favored Soul is very strong. However, people tend to underestimate what else is available, often blinded by "that time that guy with a FS did this or that...".

The truth is, a proper Warlock can do pretty much the same things. A proper Dwarven Defender can do the pretty much the same things. A Dragon Druid can do pretty much the same things. A proper Bard can do pretty much the same things. A decent Cleric can do pretty much the same things. Arcane gishes are also more or less there.

The point is, players have alternatives...

- EDM FvS Advantages

We can safely say that EDM Favored Soul is better rounded than the above. For instance, Warlock needs a few items and consumables to perform at that level, whereas a Druid will need even less equipment than the FS itself, but will kill a bit slower. Is this a balance issue? No. When you balance, you have to consider the maximum performance reachable, not the level of commitment needed to reach it.

For example, a caster Wizard will always be harder to play than the above because (among others) of the limited resources and inherent fragility under the buffs, but that doesn't mean it's weak: it just means the player's skill will be a far more decisive factor since the margin of error is narrower. A WM/FB, by comparison, can be played by me and you or someone in irreversible coma with pretty much the same outcome: point, click to attack, repeat. Once it's geared and ready, it becomes rather trivial.

I have read of players very concerned about the Weapon Focus and Specialization feats, the 10 DR, the Resistances, the ca. 3 mins Haste per day. I am pretty sure nobody in QC thought twice about these, because they are largely irrelevant to the overall performance. The reason why EDM FS is so strong, as mrm3ntalist has already pointed out early on, is the melee-oriented Cleric's spellbook (so the WIS-CHA split does not hurt much, offensive spells are not needed to kill) combined with CHA synergies on saves and EDM duration as well as scaling divine dmg increase.

However, unlike some think, EDM FvS is not a perfect machine, and even though they are few, it has chinks in its shining armor. Since this was a legitimate concern, I decided to spend a couple of words on it.

- DMing an EDM FvS (or more)

There is nothing a DM cannot do behind the client, and good DMs have shown this time and time again, demonstrating increasing levels of surgical precision in their events (for example, my personal experience with DM Narshe in the past and even more so DM Bloodlust more recently, until February).

I could explain the concept numerically, but that approach would be impractical for a DM in his or her everyday trade, especially if he/she is not the most knowledgeable as far as mechanics are concerned. Instead, it's much easier to make an example.

If you have a party with a HiPS Rogue, a Fighter type, an EDM FS and a blaster warlock, how do you react? Which kind of encounter will you build? Well...surprisingly enough, it doesn't matter, as long as you offer counterplay.

A DM thinking the EDM FS is the strongest, therefore the enemies need to challenge its stats will only result in the others dying during the "boss fight" (if not earlier), which is, in fact, craptastic: it's like watching a great movie, and leave 20 mins before the end. Terrible.

The right approach is: which character types are weaker, why, and what can their players do to compensate? A very quick glance should tell you the following:

- Big AoE death and control effects based on Will or Fort that ignore LoS are idiotic, because it's almost a death sentence for the rogue (barred light-speed mantling without warning...in a long event, almost impossible to keep that level of concentration, especially if you are busy RPing).

- The enemies need to have a Spot/listen that is manageable for the Rogue's HiPS. Those you plan to be "spotters" should hit softer in order to avoid "one-shot" situations, and be slower than the Rogue to offer counterplay.

- The enemies need to be suited to the Fighter power level, especially AC and AB-wise. This forces the FS to step into the realm of the short-term buffs or be either irrelevant, or worse, in danger.

- Fighter, Warlock and Rogue can fight often without resting. Forbid resting. Make frequent mid-level encounters happen, distanced by 6-8 mins from each other at least (given the time to RP, not a problem) instead of a single megafight where the FS (or every caster, really) can simply just fire everything and profit, forgetting the consequences.

In this fashion, you will discover a couple of things: fighter, warlock and rogue are competitive, challenged and have fun all along. The FS needs to manage its power carefully, for if it roflstomps the first two to three waves, it will run out of spells and be in trouble later on. Once the short-term buffs are no longer so readily available, you might find out that those 300 HP (usually less) aren't so many, that Disjunction at the wrong time really caused irreparable damage or even death, and that AB without Divine Power isn't so high, after all...

- Conclusion

Is the FvS too strong? Is it so strong that is disruptive? Are there other classes and character types capable of performing at the same level? In my opinion, respectively: probably slightly, no and yes. A sensible attempt at balancing was suggested by QC already: that would disrupt the synergy with EDM and BG/Pal in general, but as some pointed out also alter the RP angle significantly (stats are a very important aspect of RP).

Barring FS from cross-classing with Turn Undead classes would be an even more radical solution, and that would suddenly put the FS in "Tier 2" power-wise behind the other aforementioned types. That would be understandable in a general power level reduction strategy (fully against the "BGTSCC caters to every player and playstyle" policy that is a staple of this server's history), which involves an amount of work that is unhealthy for a game with a tad too many bugs to begin with, a few years too many under the belt, a volunteer dev team nobody can expect to work around the clock and a total playerbase of 200 people.

So the question is: why do you want it nerfed?

- If it's the pvp, you are playing the wrong game

- If it's the pve, good players can do basically the same things with many characters. Probably nerfing 40% of the classes and PrCs isn't a good idea.

- If it's the events, it's like being a god and being pissed it's raining. Even Red Wizards can control the weather, not to mention a DM...

- If it's the RP, one of the main server rules is: "Don't be a jerk. Benefit of the doubt for others' RP, don't judge someone else's RP a priori". I have met several excellent RPers playing FSs. I have met several extremely bad paladins who weren't FSs. Classes have nothing to do with anything, really: it is, and always will be, the players.

- If it's the fact another character is more powerful than yours, well...you either are a munchkin (and then my suggestion would be play one, or one of the others mentioned) or I can assure you, there are several more.

I have only played FS to test it in 2012, so it's not like I am sentimentally involved with the class. It's just that I consider wanting to take something away from someone else without valid reasons a baffling attitude, even more so when this is one of the few classes which are NOOB-friendly and can hit top performance levels without much money or equipment.

Happy RPing everyone.

[mrm3ntalist]

There is nothing more to add to Aelcar's post. Covered everything 100%. Begin nerfing for such reasons, then everything goes downhill. Reading the post for the next nerf request, for a build as powerful as an FS, will be very fun to read.

Instead of working on completing the update issues, implement new prcs,classkits, feats, we are wasting our time nerfing a class. Effectiveness at its greatest.

Hidden: show

I had promised a friend I wouldn't post anymore, but he had promised me he wouldn't quit DMing first, so I am sure he won't mind this little...exception.

I read this thread entirely, and I have to agree with those feeling the majority of posts come more from "gut feelings" rather than hard facts or true problems.

- What is currently available

EDM Favored Soul is very strong. However, people tend to underestimate what else is available, often blinded by "that time that guy with a FS did this or that...".

The truth is, a proper Warlock can do pretty much the same things. A proper Dwarven Defender can do the pretty much the same things. A Dragon Druid can do pretty much the same things. A proper Bard can do pretty much the same things. A decent Cleric can do pretty much the same things. Arcane gishes are also more or less there.

The point is, players have alternatives...

- EDM FvS Advantages

We can safely say that EDM Favored Soul is better rounded than the above. For instance, Warlock needs a few items and consumables to perform at that level, whereas a Druid will need even less equipment than the FS itself, but will kill a bit slower. Is this a balance issue? No. When you balance, you have to consider the maximum performance reachable, not the level of commitment needed to reach it.

For example, a caster Wizard will always be harder to play than the above because (among others) of the limited resources and inherent fragility under the buffs, but that doesn't mean it's weak: it just means the player's skill will be a far more decisive factor since the margin of error is narrower. A WM/FB, by comparison, can be played by me and you or someone in irreversible coma with pretty much the same outcome: point, click to attack, repeat. Once it's geared and ready, it becomes rather trivial.

I have read of players very concerned about the Weapon Focus and Specialization feats, the 10 DR, the Resistances, the ca. 3 mins Haste per day. I am pretty sure nobody in QC thought twice about these, because they are largely irrelevant to the overall performance. The reason why EDM FS is so strong, as mrm3ntalist has already pointed out early on, is the melee-oriented Cleric's spellbook (so the WIS-CHA split does not hurt much, offensive spells are not needed to kill) combined with CHA synergies on saves and EDM duration as well as scaling divine dmg increase.

However, unlike some think, EDM FvS is not a perfect machine, and even though they are few, it has chinks in its shining armor. Since this was a legitimate concern, I decided to spend a couple of words on it.

- DMing an EDM FvS (or more)

There is nothing a DM cannot do behind the client, and good DMs have shown this time and time again, demonstrating increasing levels of surgical precision in their events (for example, my personal experience with DM Narshe in the past and even more so DM Bloodlust more recently, until February).

I could explain the concept numerically, but that approach would be impractical for a DM in his or her everyday trade, especially if he/she is not the most knowledgeable as far as mechanics are concerned. Instead, it's much easier to make an example.

If you have a party with a HiPS Rogue, a Fighter type, an EDM FS and a blaster warlock, how do you react? Which kind of encounter will you build? Well...surprisingly enough, it doesn't matter, as long as you offer counterplay.

A DM thinking the EDM FS is the strongest, therefore the enemies need to challenge its stats will only result in the others dying during the "boss fight" (if not earlier), which is, in fact, craptastic: it's like watching a great movie, and leave 20 mins before the end. Terrible.

The right approach is: which character types are weaker, why, and what can their players do to compensate? A very quick glance should tell you the following:

- Big AoE death and control effects based on Will or Fort that ignore LoS are idiotic, because it's almost a death sentence for the rogue (barred light-speed mantling without warning...in a long event, almost impossible to keep that level of concentration, especially if you are busy RPing).

- The enemies need to have a Spot/listen that is manageable for the Rogue's HiPS. Those you plan to be "spotters" should hit softer in order to avoid "one-shot" situations, and be slower than the Rogue to offer counterplay.

- The enemies need to be suited to the Fighter power level, especially AC and AB-wise. This forces the FS to step into the realm of the short-term buffs or be either irrelevant, or worse, in danger.

- Fighter, Warlock and Rogue can fight often without resting. Forbid resting. Make frequent mid-level encounters happen, distanced by 6-8 mins from each other at least (given the time to RP, not a problem) instead of a single megafight where the FS (or every caster, really) can simply just fire everything and profit, forgetting the consequences.

In this fashion, you will discover a couple of things: fighter, warlock and rogue are competitive, challenged and have fun all along. The FS needs to manage its power carefully, for if it roflstomps the first two to three waves, it will run out of spells and be in trouble later on. Once the short-term buffs are no longer so readily available, you might find out that those 300 HP (usually less) aren't so many, that Disjunction at the wrong time really caused irreparable damage or even death, and that AB without Divine Power isn't so high, after all...

- Conclusion

Is the FvS too strong? Is it so strong that is disruptive? Are there other classes and character types capable of performing at the same level? In my opinion, respectively: probably slightly, no and yes. A sensible attempt at balancing was suggested by QC already: that would disrupt the synergy with EDM and BG/Pal in general, but as some pointed out also alter the RP angle significantly (stats are a very important aspect of RP).

Barring FS from cross-classing with Turn Undead classes would be an even more radical solution, and that would suddenly put the FS in "Tier 2" power-wise behind the other aforementioned types. That would be understandable in a general power level reduction strategy (fully against the "BGTSCC caters to every player and playstyle" policy that is a staple of this server's history), which involves an amount of work that is unhealthy for a game with a tad too many bugs to begin with, a few years too many under the belt, a volunteer dev team nobody can expect to work around the clock and a total playerbase of 200 people.

So the question is: why do you want it nerfed?

- If it's the pvp, you are playing the wrong game

- If it's the pve, good players can do basically the same things with many characters. Probably nerfing 40% of the classes and PrCs isn't a good idea.

- If it's the events, it's like being a god and being pissed it's raining. Even Red Wizards can control the weather, not to mention a DM...

- If it's the RP, one of the main server rules is: "Don't be a jerk. Benefit of the doubt for others' RP, don't judge someone else's RP a priori". I have met several excellent RPers playing FSs. I have met several extremely bad paladins who weren't FSs. Classes have nothing to do with anything, really: it is, and always will be, the players.

- If it's the fact another character is more powerful than yours, well...you either are a munchkin (and then my suggestion would be play one, or one of the others mentioned) or I can assure you, there are several more.

I have only played FS to test it in 2012, so it's not like I am sentimentally involved with the class. It's just that I consider wanting to take something away from someone else without valid reasons a baffling attitude, even more so when this is one of the few classes which are NOOB-friendly and can hit top performance levels without much money or equipment.

Happy RPing everyone.

[Xanfyrst]

I don't know what else to say other than the main reason I am for the nerf is that FS have ruined many events for me over the years. I don't care about PVE, I don't care about PVP. I care about RP and I care about events. SO when I get in an event and the DM is clearly catering to keeping the one FS engaged and challenged and ignoring the 10 other players that are repeatedly dying I cannot help but notice this is an issue. Players that play FS may not realize it. I suspect y'all may not care. I do though and obviously many others do.

/rant

That's not the fault of the class, but the DMs. Would it be my fault if a DM catered to me specifically in their events and ignoring everyone else? And DMs also have access to the character sheets of the players in their events. So if they can see someone being significantly more mechanically powerful than others, he/she can have a quick talk with said player about it and ask them politely to "restrict" themselves during the events combat parts.

Isn't that a pretty good sign that something needs to be powered down? :p

I didn't mention FS anywhere, though. Mostly because we have no idea of what class combinations the others were. Was the FS optimised and with classic BG/Pal dip? And were the other classes pure RP classes in comparison?

So again, the fault lies entirely on the DM and not any class or class combination.

As I said previously in this thread, there are classes and class combinations that are on equal footing with FS. (with or without dips)

[Ithilan]

I don't know what else to say other than the main reason I am for the nerf is that FS have ruined many events for me over the years. I don't care about PVE, I don't care about PVP. I care about RP and I care about events. SO when I get in an event and the DM is clearly catering to keeping the one FS engaged and challenged and ignoring the 10 other players that are repeatedly dying I cannot help but notice this is an issue. Players that play FS may not realize it. I suspect y'all may not care. I do though and obviously many others do.

/rant

That's not the fault of the class, but the DMs. Would it be my fault if a DM catered to me specifically in their events and ignoring everyone else? And DMs also have access to the character sheets of the players in their events. So if they can see someone being significantly more mechanically powerful than others, he/she can have a quick talk with said player about it and ask them politely to "restrict" themselves during the events combat parts.

Isn't that a pretty good sign that something needs to be powered down? :p

Not at all.. It means people took their freedom of choice, some to make X build others Y build.
If I went and make a Sunite heartwarder concept that is a pacifist with 8 strengh.. is it time to nerf the fighter with 30 strength and weapons master levels? No.

Power of a build can be immense, the downwards spiral of nerfing stuff for the wrong reasons is starting right here. The argument as to why is still being evaded largely.. "they are on top of the power curve" .. "they solo things while I work" .. "I once heard a FS won in PvP when I was offline".. the pattern of argumentation is selfish, biased and unfounded largely.

I spend a good 20 minutes the other day fighting the Yuan Ti matron on my bard.. level drained to level 17.. without any spells, breached and mordekained to have have 2-3 active spells.. and I won. My favored soul could not have done that, but it is one out of an endless list of possible scenarios, do we start nerfing things on hear say of this occuring? I hope not.

The fact that some people have the nerve to call out generalisations of others playing a certain class and to the extend of saying they are lackluster in their RP, I cant even begin to fathom.

Remove the DR if you like, all the elemental resistances and the haste.. it will not change anything for the FS in truth, you are simply shaving the class down to have less identity on paper. Id be all for it though, replace it with feats like True Beliver, Sacred Wov and things in that line to bring it closer to the deities they belong to.. or some thing along the line of what Boddyknock suggested for the resistances.

But at the end of the day you will still have the very same FS around, a power house of dimensions.. just like the bards and many many other builds out there that you may not have considered.

Nerfing for the sake of nerfing and out of sheer spite for a concept or players of a concept that you will not even give the benefit of doubt is just sad.

[RagingPeace]

Not at all.. It means people took their freedom of choice, some to make X build others Y build.
If I went and make a Sunite heartwarder concept that is a pacifist with 8 strengh.. is it time to nerf the fighter with 30 strength and weapons master levels? No.

Power of a build can be immense, the downwards spiral of nerfing stuff for the wrong reasons is starting right here. The argument as to why is still being evaded largely.. "they are on top of the power curve" .. "they solo things while I work" .. "I once heard a FS won in PvP when I was offline".. the pattern of argumentation is selfish, biased and unfounded largely.

I spend a good 20 minutes the other day fighting the Yuan Ti matron on my bard.. level drained to level 17.. without any spells, breached and mordekained to have have 2-3 active spells.. and I won. My favored soul could not have done that, but it is one out of an endless list of possible scenarios, do we start nerfing things on hear say of this occuring? I hope not.

The fact that some people have the nerve to call out generalisations of others playing a certain class and to the extend of saying they are lackluster in their RP, I cant even begin to fathom.

Remove the DR if you like, all the elemental resistances and the haste.. it will not change anything for the FS in truth, you are simply shaving the class down to have less identity on paper. Id be all for it though, replace it with feats like True Beliver, Sacred Wov and things in that line to bring it closer to the deities they belong to.. or some thing along the line of what Boddyknock suggested for the resistances.

But at the end of the day you will still have the very same FS around, a power house of dimensions.. just like the bards and many many other builds out there that you may not have considered.

Nerfing for the sake of nerfing and out of sheer spite for a concept or players of a concept that you will not even give the benefit of doubt is just sad.

I don't have any issues with peoples' RP on the faovored soul, my problem is mostly during events - and some have stated that it is merely the DM's fault for not being able to deal with builds properly, though I don't believe that is easy work. I've run into the problem a couple of times, where DMs had to suddenly boost mobs to extreme levels, because some druid or favored soul ran to the DM's spawning point and tank/killed all enemies. The result usually being a mega-mob(s) one-hitting my character. It may be a silly mistake from the DM, or something entirely else, all I can say is that it seems to happen often.

I think AlwaysSummer Day's post was right on.

I spend a good 20 minutes the other day fighting the Yuan Ti matron on my bard.. level drained to level 17.. without any spells, breached and mordekained to have have 2-3 active spells.. and I won. My favored soul could not have done that, but it is one out of an endless list of possible scenarios, do we start nerfing things on hear say of this occuring? I hope not.

I've never been able to solo the Yuan TI matron, or any other boss on any of my characters, besides the lizard chieftan, so I can't really comment on that.

[Ithilan]

My post was not specifically aimed at you, only the first part.

I just dislike a lot of the arguments for why FS needs being looked over, not because I particulary enjoy the class. But because this is dangerous territory and a never ending process of nerfs that will follow in its wake if we cave in to the pety reasons ive seen.

And I second Xanfyrst for the third time, DM event balance is on the DM, not the players. The level ranges can be absurb, does that mean we should all lie down before kobolds? No.

Edit: And my point about the Yuan-Ti Matron is more so that I died on the very same character yesterday to a 1 roll on a power word petrify.. so lets not be hasty to judge over dream scenarios.

[NegInfinity]

I don't have any issues with peoples' RP on the faovored soul, my problem is mostly during events - and some have stated that it is merely the DM's fault for not being able to deal with builds properly, though I don't believe that is easy work.

I think it can be fixed by having more diverse no-rest events with anti-magic traps and enemies in them. Same applies to locations.

Nerfing a class because of all this isn't right.

[arakes99]

Every online RPG in the world has to nerf a class on occasion to bring it into balance. The slippery slope argument is silly here. Because we nerf EVERYTHING except FvS and some of the other weaker base classes here as it is and nothing other than the Druid has ever had a helpful boost.

Look at our PrC's and then Google the same PrC on another server, or find Kaedrin's original description and you will see how horribly diminished they are here, for sake of balance, over their original standing. Examples:

Anointed Knight
Warrior of Darkness
Dragonwarrior
DISABLED: RDD

We also do not allow many other PrC's at all that would be more on par with the current FvS than anything else we have.

Bladesingers
Swiftblades
Champions of the wild
etc.

So while yes, bard and druids and even a GISH can almost compete with the FvS, they don't quite. Especially the GISH. And our community is not so nerf free as everyone seems to be trying to point out. It's been done time and time again, and mostly limits those playing non caster types and its been done before the content is ever introduced. The low magic of the setting already gimps non casters as it is, so there has been a secondary, very deliberate nerfing of melee types comparatively to everything else.

The current dispel fix was a more effective nerf to GISH builds than any other type too.

The mention of the FB/WM in this thread is kind of funny too. Have you seen this build try and solo most content? They Only have 40ish AC at best and with the dispel fix in UMD is incredibly expensive and not very reliable. Sure they hit like a train, but they derail just as quick. They are a middle of the road build in almost every respect and really lose out on survivability and any kind of skills points and have aweful saving throws.

While I am very sorry if the suggested change upsets any of you that play the FvS. You are not being singled out through some horrible twisted machination of a few angry players. There is a glaring imbalance here, and while there used to be more prior to the dispel fix, the EDM FvS is now standing in the limelight. MANY people want it out right deleted from the game, which I think is a very harsh step, but so is threatening to quit if ONE class gets ONE tweak for balance, or saying that this will be the end of the entire community is just as drastic and based far more in self interest if you happen to have an FvS. Some of my best friends here happen to play an FvS, but most of them have no posted here and understand a lot of the sentiment against the class.

[Karond]

The slippery slope argument is silly here.

I don't feel it's entirely out of place though. Like, Ithilan has questioned the arguments constantly and few (if any) have noticed. What are they? That they're powerful? Best? Invincible? It's just statements. What exactly are they powerful at? "Everything" is lazy.

My personal opinion based on the mechanical knowledge that I have, is that they are the best class there is at boss slaying. Not much else. Not PvP, not grinding and certainly not DM events. Boss slaying is intimately tied in with looting. Some might get a looting route down quicker, but might be limited in where that route can go, unlike the FS. Well, to a point. Many classes can go down the same routes. The difference for them is more in speed. It takes a shorter amount of time for an FS to kill some things than it does for others.

Is it right for us to nerf, or even remove, a class because of this special thing? What about other special things? Few tank like a dwarven defender or a dragon druid. Noone clears waves of enemies like a warlock repeatedly. Are they not frowned upon because their skillsets aren't loot-based?

Looting is key to a lot of people. Many people want better equipment, and its *the* method to get it most of the time.

I worry that most people dislike on FS because of this in the back of their minds. Like they're believing that it will somehow reduce looting, and thus magically increase quality RP as if they were directly opposed to one another.

[arakes99]

However you slice this argument opinion is tied to it. There is always a counter to every argument, some creatively better way to do one specific thing than another.

Are FvS the only powerful class? No, they just have the most advantages in the most categories. Sure, some things will be better than they are at specific tasks, but nothing is better than they are at a larger swath of tasks. That to me is the issue with them, and why they are so common.

"Is it right?"

Is nerfing every PrC we add to the server right? Is low magic in the setting right? Is 3b20 right? We are a community, communities ideally make decisions based on the overall feeling toward an issue. While I do not claim to know the entirety of the 200+ posts this thread currently has, I have seen a very large outcry to bring this class into line.

Ignoring all those opinions in a community, just because they are "Negative" or "Harmful" to some would definitely not be Right.

[mrm3ntalist]

Every online RPG in the world has to nerf a class on occasion to bring it into balance. The slippery slope argument is silly here. Because we nerf EVERYTHING except FvS and some of the other weaker base classes here as it is and nothing other than the Druid has ever had a helpful boost.

Silly is wasting time for a failed perception of balance. Look at the dispel fix. 6 months after and there are still issues with it. At the same time, the balance hasnt shifted at all other than destroying umd builds that were at the bottom or even middle of the food chain. The same thing will happen with the FS nerf. What you think will happen with every nerf that ahs been discussed here or in the QC forums? Even if you take out EDM, the DR, the fighter feats, the immunities, nothing will happen other than upset some people and waste the time for developing and testing.

Here is an example, not from me but a friend proving a point.

with what an ultimate FS looks like (to me at any rate). Look at this:

27 FS, 3 Rogue

30 STR
9 DEX
8 CON
13 INT
8 WIS
16 CHA

Able learner, Improved Power attack, Luck of Heroes, PSC, Luck of heroes, Extend Spell, Improved Knockdown, Expose Weakness, Ability feats.

Mystra (provides exotic and the useless shuriken).

54 AB, 51 AC, 32-50 damage (before most spells).

Azuth's spell shield: SR 50.

----

The result is a near magic immune FS, with exotic weapons, good statistics and a strong knockdown. Statistically it will ruin other FS powerbuilds and perform better than them at most things. All without using charisma feats, charisma classes or even the FS weapon feats. Arguably it isn't even using the DR, since stonebody is up the entire time.

It just uses the spontaneous casting.

We will spend time nerfing the class with any suggestion mentioned here and the FS will stil lbe on top. Time that we can use solving the update issues, test new areas, finish the new classes.

But no. We want "balance". Even if we remove FSs there are other builds ready to take its place at the top of the pyramid. Good times...

[arakes99]

And that's probably why some people don't think nerfs are enough.

I do apologize for wasting everyone's time though.

[mrm3ntalist]

And that's probably why some people don't think nerfs are enough.

And that is the flawed logic. The mentality of "It is OP lets remove it"

There will always be a strong build for those looking for it. A build to kill bosses, grind, loot like a champ. Most players that i know who grind continuously dont even have an FS.

Even if you take drastical measures and remove the class, there will be another OP build for BG. What have you gained after this other than upseting some and doing nothing for the rest?

[Moltrazahn]

...

Is this thread going anywhere productive? I got lost 4 pages ago.

Have the QC gotten the feedback they were looking for? Is it a good feedback? Will it help with the final decision?

Right now it seems like a lot of fact tossing but no middle ground. Or I'm missing it.

[mrm3ntalist]

Right now it seems like a lot of fact tossing but no middle ground. Or I'm missing it.

You dont miss it. There is no middle ground.

Either we nerf something ( anything really ) upset players and spend time that we can spend on other things and achieve nothing regarding the reasons of why this nerf was asked

Or

We do nothing and use the time to fix bugs, test classes finish the disguise framework.