Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Alyssia gets a little boost because she wields arcane magic (sorc).

Kelsfar wrote:Yes Eilistraee does in fact have a temple in Sshamath

Is that server lore or FR lore? I ask because I read about everything I could find Sshamath over that very question and found no mention of an Eilistraeen temple. Seem to remember something about them visiting, but not usually lasting long in the city b/c they break its laws pretty quick.

Gotta disagree Sel. I don't feel that you should roleplay out combat because there's a huge system in place for dealing with it. It's sort of what makes up the vast majority of the rulebooks and is a simple way to prevent the annoying God-mode fighting that pure roleplay degenerates into in the hands of immature gamers trying to decide who wins.

By making a number system that you can fall back on to get roleplay results, such as political intrigue, I would argue that you're reducing roleplay into something akin to the combat mechanics.

I don't think that's necessary. But sure, more power to those who want to play along with all that. Just don't be surprised when the vast majority of UD players have no idea what we're talking about when refer to our 'station score.' I suspect a large portion of our players don't frequent the boards.

As for creating a background that gives you a better station score, you don't really sacrifice a whole lot for that. If you build a powerbuild, you usually sacrifice social skills. But anybody can say there a noble and there's not much of a drawback.

I do like the idea, but Egg Shen is correct, it'll get ignored and/or turn into yet another thing to argue about.

Actually only a few of the UD players have even weighed in on this thread. Probably a bad sign about forum reading.

eggshen wrote:By making a number system that you can fall back on to get roleplay results, such as political intrigue, I would argue that you're reducing roleplay into something akin to the combat mechanics.

It's not a purely mechanical system. You still have to roleplay and do things in game to affect any change on your own or others station. What it would provide is a measuring system so you know where you and others currently stand in relation to one another. I don't see how it would remove any roleplay and I can see several ways in which it would facilitate new roleplaying between characters.

raetin wrote:I do like the idea, but Egg Shen is correct, it'll get ignored and/or turn into yet another thing to argue about.

It's supposed to be argued about and fought over, just in an in-character way.

Actually only a few of the UD players have even weighed in on this thread. Probably a bad sign about forum reading.

Yeah, I thought we had more based on the 3 pages in Kelsfar's pirate thread but now that I look at it I see it's a lot of surfacers asking if they could participate in it and only a very few underdarkers.

Hi all, i havent read through this entire thread in depth so forgive me if my post recounts some previous post.


1). Rank is everything to drow.
2). In Sshamath rank is conferred in a drastically different manner than other drow societies.
3). Charisma has almost nothing to do with rank.
4). In general any casters that receive their magic natively without study are regarded as amateurs and looked down upon. This includes sorcerers, clerics etc.

In Sshamath going from top down:

1: Conclave member (head of a school)
2: Higher ranking member of a school of magic (a master if you will).
3: Head of a recognized church (head priestess of lolth, head priest of vhaeraun etc. Some drow churches operate in Sshamath in secret and so would not fall into this hierarchy of rank, for example Ellistrae & Ghaunaduar).
4: Member of the Charnag Maelthra (Sshamath's feared political police who take their orders directly from the Conclave).
5: Member of a school of magic (and ranked according to internal school rank, apprentice, novice, etc).
6: High ranking priest/ess of a recognized drow deity (i.e. Yathrin or similar one notch below high-priest/ess).
7: Sshamath Guard
9: Arcane caster not affiliated with a school of magic.
10: Member of a recognized drow church (i.e. priest/ess but not high up in the temple hierarchy.
11: Citizen of Sshamath (drow only)
12: all drow non-citizens
13: All non-drow, non-citizens

Consider that in Sshamath your quellar (house) means squat for the most part (it's about equivalent to who your tailor is). The only exception to this is if you are a member of a powerful quellar from another drow city that has a presence in Sshamath (such as quellar noquafin) as their power and trading activities bring their own respect.

There is no such thing as powerful/ high ranking quellar native to Sshamath, in fact "powerful quellar" as a phrase is an oxymoron within Sshamath.

Powerful or connected traders can hold reasonable high rank due to their connections to the Conclave and this carries over to other non-drow organizations such as the cities itinerant Duergar.
While they hold no rank themselves they do hold some rank from their association with the Conclave.

hope this helps

it's also worth noting that personal power, alliances and allies can often substitute or be used interchangeably with rank as far as drow are concerned.

so a very powerful drow mage from a powerful menzo quellar would garner respect and reactions completely unrelated to his ranking within the city's political hierarchy.

it's probably best just to use a simple rule of thumb:

the conclave (and their minions) outrank and rule all.
arcane casters outrank everyone else.
divine and native casters are looked down upon.
non-drow are scum.
with the amendment that if the personage can kill you or has powerful allies you should treat them with appropriate respect.

adzling wrote:Hi all, i havent read through this entire thread in depth so forgive me if my post recounts some previous post.


1). Rank is everything to drow.
2). In Sshamath rank is conferred in a drastically different manner than other drow societies.
3). Charisma has almost nothing to do with rank.
4). In general any casters that receive their magic natively without study are regarded as amateurs and looked down upon. This includes sorcerers, clerics etc.

Yeah. I haven't ready many of the Drizz't novels but the sense I got was that the drow had an innate sense of where everyone stood in the hierarchy, of what their station was. Non-drow would be a little crippled in this regard, having to gauge their station by more traditional means.

I disagree with #3. While it should be minor, I think charisma can be a good bonus to use for your station. If you stack up two identical drow with the same accomplishments, skills and abilities to their names, but one of them has a higher charisma it makes sense to me that the one with more charisma would end up with a slightly higher station than the other one. Maybe he's good at kissing up to the right people. Maybe he's just more attractive (drow are an exceedingly vain people). If you're worried about someone with 26 charisma getting more respect or influence than they would normally deserve... isn't that the definition of charisma there?

#4 - I think sorcerers would still be treated as 2nd class citizens as opposed to the divine magic users. They're still wielding arcane magic, right? Or should there be a distinction between 'learned magic users' and those others who gain their powers either by 'ritual and servitude to a greater power' or through 'unnatural blood-born talents'?

In Sshamath going from top down:

1: Conclave member (head of a school)
2: Higher ranking member of a school of magic (a master if you will).
3: Head of a recognized church (head priestess of lolth, head priest of vhaeraun etc. Some drow churches operate in Sshamath in secret and so would not fall into this hierarchy of rank, for example Ellistrae & Ghaunaduar).
4: Member of the Charnag Maelthra (Sshamath's feared political police who take their orders directly from the Conclave).
5: Member of a school of magic (and ranked according to internal school rank, apprentice, novice, etc).
6: High ranking priest/ess of a recognized drow deity (i.e. Yathrin or similar one notch below high-priest/ess).
7: Sshamath Guard
9: Arcane caster not affiliated with a school of magic.
10: Member of a recognized drow church (i.e. priest/ess but not high up in the temple hierarchy.
11: Citizen of Sshamath (drow only)
12: all drow non-citizens
13: All non-drow, non-citizens

Kelsfar's information said that regular drow citizens would be ranked higher than members of a church. I think it would be more interesting politically if the churches still had a lot of political and spiritual sway, but not enough to stand against the Conclave's interests.

Nearly all of the players will fall into one of four categories (removing the distinction for citizen/non-citizen as I don't think it's extremely relevant for these four)

Member of a School of Magic
Drow
Recognized Member of a Church
Non-Drow

It's easy to say, for instance, that a Wizard who can cast 9th level spells would have more station in Sshamath than a Drow shadow dancer. But what about when the wizard is a non-drow? What if there is a Drow wizard/cleric who is a clergy of an existing church, where does she stand? Does a drow fighter who can cast 1st level wizard spells have much more station than a pure fighter, and where would he stand in regards to a drow sorcerer or warlock?

It's easy to say 'just rp it' but face it, everyone's a badass when left to their own devices and judgement. Just like if there were no combat mechanics, just roleplaying/text descriptions, then everyone would be an unkillable badass who strikes from the shadows and leaves no trace, only death.

As I recall, the only rights of a non-drow who can cast arcane magic is that they cannot be made a slave.

My previous posting about the rank layout is the way of things, I know its hard to except your priest or priestess is trumped down by wizards but Sshamath is not Menzo, Trust me I have a level 18 Cleric of Lolth when UD first opened up, just takes a little used to excepting. I know everyone has there ideas and opinion of things but I did EXTENSIVE research on Sshamath when I came to be DM and I am not talking about wiki cause they are only 60% right about FR lore, I got my info mostly out of novels like Lisa Smedman's "Storm of the Dead" and out of the Underdark campaign manuals and FR manuals, as well as DnDinsider.com.

i didnt know much about the drow lore, before i read through the lore here. and i found out that sorc wasnt popular. that sucked a little. but i have a concept/idea and i still made my char. it isnt alway about being the most powerful or highest ranking. its about injoying you char, and had i made my drow a wiz, im not sure i would have liked it as much

Sellular wrote: Yeah. I haven't ready many of the Drizz't novels but the sense I got was that the drow had an innate sense of where everyone stood in the hierarchy, of what their station was. Non-drow would be a little crippled in this regard, having to gauge their station by more traditional means.

this is very true, interestingly the converse is also true. A drow outside drow society (for example on the surface) will be constantly trying to judge the rank of those around him and where he/she fits in. Most often this will fail as rank means much less up top (except in very specific situations). This can result in a drow on the surface doing some very odd or counter-intuitive things that seem illogical to a surfacer.

Sellular wrote: I disagree with #3. While it should be minor, I think charisma can be a good bonus to use for your station. If you stack up two identical drow with the same accomplishments, skills and abilities to their names, but one of them has a higher charisma it makes sense to me that the one with more charisma would end up with a slightly higher station than the other one. Maybe he's good at kissing up to the right people. Maybe he's just more attractive (drow are an exceedingly vain people). If you're worried about someone with 26 charisma getting more respect or influence than they would normally deserve... isn't that the definition of charisma there?

yes this may be partially true in as much charisma affords the specific drow the ability to make stronger alliances or alliances with more powerful people.

Sellular wrote: #4 - I think sorcerers would still be treated as 2nd class citizens as opposed to the divine magic users. They're still wielding arcane magic, right? Or should there be a distinction between 'learned magic users' and those others who gain their powers either by 'ritual and servitude to a greater power' or through 'unnatural blood-born talents'?

Yes all magic that is conferred naturally as opposed to "earned" by hard study is looked down upon in Sshamath. So Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids, etc are all viewed poorly as they did not actually "work" for their magic.

Kelsfar's information said that regular drow citizens would be ranked higher than members of a church. I think it would be more interesting politically if the churches still had a lot of political and spiritual sway, but not enough to stand against the Conclave's interests.

The churches actually hold little political power, the Church of Lolth holds some and the Church of Vhaeraun somewhat more but not anywhere near enough to challenge the Conclave. So their power comes more from their utility to the Conclave than any direct access to power (much like the Duergar and resident Svirfneblin traders). While publicly espousing yourself as being a lay-member of church will get you nowhere in Sshamath being the head priestess of the church of Lolth or Vhaeraun will garner some respect from almost everyone (excepting a Conclave member) simply due to the forces you command and the power you have access to. This falls off very quickly as you move down the chain of command within the church.

It's easy to say, for instance, that a Wizard who can cast 9th level spells would have more station in Sshamath than a Drow shadow dancer. But what about when the wizard is a non-drow? What if there is a Drow wizard/cleric who is a clergy of an existing church, where does she stand? Does a drow fighter who can cast 1st level wizard spells have much more station than a pure fighter, and where would he stand in regards to a drow sorcerer or warlock?

Taking your examples in turn:
A non-drow wizard would garner little respect unless he is directly allied with one or another of the schools of magic (they do retain some non-drow minions) and/or they are supremely powerful in their own right.
A drow wizard/cleric would be viewed as an oddity and likely be a pariah for corrupting their study of the weave.
A drow fighter who can cast 1st level spells would be viewed a little more favorable than a straight fighter unless the pure fighter had some higher rank (i.e. captain or sergeant of the guard).
A drow sorcerer or warlock would be looked down upon in much the same way as a divine caster, they are treated worse than just a simple warrior.

It's easy to say 'just rp it' but face it, everyone's a badass when left to their own devices and judgement. Just like if there were no combat mechanics, just roleplaying/text descriptions, then everyone would be an unkillable badass who strikes from the shadows and leaves no trace, only death.

sure this is true.
the simplest way to think about it the Wizard with highest casting level will rule the group unless you are badass enough to beat them to a pulp in which case, as with any drow society, might makes right.

<9: Arcane caster not affiliated with a school of magic.>

This is a Drow arcane caster correct? I can't imagine Drow letting a human wizard have more status than hard working Drow citizens. My view is that the innate racism Drow are supposed to have, still exists in Sshamath. Only now instead of priests in charge, it's wizards. Drow societies are not nice places for non Drow. I have a hard time believing that an elf, human, half elf, halfling etc from the surface who's a wizard is socially higher up than a regular hard working Drow in the city. You'd have uproar and riots. Slaves and cattle have no place except under the boot heels of the Drow. Or am I wrong?

If someone can clarify whether or not non-Drow wizards fall under rule #9 or inbetween rule #11 and #12, that would be nice.

yes you are correct, any non-drow is by definition a non-citizen and so beneath a drow.

Not true there is a Sun Elf Sorcerer of the College of Divination named Khorl Krissellian. A Human Wizard of the College of Divination named Daffir the Prescient. I would say that these are one's that descended into schools because of there power and ties to a Member of Conclave. This is why Wizards of all races have such a high status in Sshamath, It is simply put "A Mages city". I wish I have my old post from the former forums about this subject and such, seems I am restating all again lol. Outside of a tie to conclave or a particular College then I say yes Drow are still the supreme, but wizards trump this in a way.

i would class these high powered wizards with direct ties to the conclave as the exception that proves the rule.

for example in lisa smedman's trilogy there are 3 high-powered non-drow wizards that work for the school of magic most involved with the plot-line.

absent such a direct connection to a school of magic a drow would hold higher rank imho.

it is still a drow city after all.