Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Considerate_ wrote:I'm curious, what is the subjective alignment system that Forgotten Realms have?

You can't torture someone in a subjective good way, to the best of my knowledge. Regardless of how pure your intentions are, it's always evil.

Same goes with Animating the Dead, there's no subjective interpretations to whether it's good or evil. You could save a single or a billion people, and it wouldn't change the fact it's considered evil.

Assassination, for instance. Some (Paladins, or typically Lawful Good) would say it is evil regardless of intention. Others (typically Chaotic good) might say that it's a means to an end - killing the tyrant is just safer and quicker than putting him on a trial after which he's going to get hanged anyways.

Deathgrowl wrote:

Considerate_ wrote:I'm curious, what is the subjective alignment system that Forgotten Realms have?

You can't torture someone in a subjective good way, to the best of my knowledge. Regardless of how pure your intentions are, it's always evil.

Same goes with Animating the Dead, there's no subjective interpretations to whether it's good or evil. You could save a single or a billion people, and it wouldn't change the fact it's considered evil.

Assassination, for instance. Some (Paladins, or typically Lawful Good) would say it is evil regardless of intention. Others (typically Chaotic good) might say that it's a means to an end - killing the tyrant is just safer and quicker than putting him on a trial after which he's going to get hanged anyways.

And some consider hanging evil for it can cause undue suffering over a blade through spine.(either from assassination or form of execution.)

well its called vampiric regenreation, it could be called life stealing or whatever, you debate for 3 pages over what is obvious

the hand that controls the blade decides on its purpose...

Yes, and no, Dzidek, though it is a more of a philosphical debate in the last posts imo. Vampiric regeneration seems not to be that important anymore.

Deathgrowl wrote:You're talking about the difference of subjective and objective alignment. Forgotten realms has both.

There are planes who are inherently evil and there are planes who are inherently good. The spell Animate Dead is evil, no matter your intentions. Demons and devils are created of objective evil, celestials of objective good.

I don't think the alignment system is as flawed as people say. You can easily put any character in fiction into an alignment (perhaps with tendencies leaning in one direction away from the alignment).

Yes, of course, but it will always be only a tendency. No being is only lawful, only good, only chaotic, only evil, etc. We all have tendencies and we act accordingly (genetics, experiences, morales, education, etc. etc.).
That is why you will never know another person thoroughly, not even yourself. And that is a good thing, it makes life exciting imo. And that is why I feel that this alignment system is just a unneeded simplification which hinders more than it does help.


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But back to topic (and keep my philosophical interests flowing please you may go offroad with it ): Let us take a dwarven lady who happens to be a Paladin to Berronar Truesilver. She uses a blade with vampiric regeneration. Is that somehow ok? Or should she destroy the weapon at once.
I must admit I do not know enough about Truesilver, I have read the usual stuff but I dont know exactly how dwarfs see these weapons usually either. If in their culture its ok then it stands to reason that a Paladin would have less qualms of that race to wield it too.

As said, it is not inherently evil so a paladin can use it. It will not steer them towards an evil alignment because of the simple fact that it lacks the evil descriptor. Question is if they -should- for pure RP reasons. You will have to decide that for yourself.

its just a description...

if you put a VR on a paladin weapon that can only be used by good and never hit good alignment it magically becomes the bane of evil masterwork sword of holy destruction of evil and everyone around can pretend it steals the evil forces of the being and transfroms it to postitive energy to heal the vielder

not lets pretend.. just for fun that the part paladin weapon that can only be used by good and never hit good alignment is already in place as a true paladin has to act this way and this rule is set it stone...

so now we are left with a weapo that never hits a good person and transforms evil life force into pure positive energy...

is that okey with the paladin rule book?

dzidek1983 wrote:its just a description...

if you put a VR on a paladin weapon that can only be used by good and never hit good alignment it magically becomes the bane of evil masterwork sword of holy destruction of evil and everyone around can pretend it steals the evil forces of the being and transfroms it to postitive energy to heal the vielder

not lets pretend.. just for fun that the part paladin weapon that can only be used by good and never hit good alignment is already in place as a true paladin has to act this way and this rule is set it stone...

so now we are left with a weapo that never hits a good person and transforms evil life force into pure positive energy...

is that okey with the paladin rule book?

No. Paladins should never ever use it. It is vile.

Hitman Hard wrote:

dzidek1983 wrote:its just a description...

if you put a VR on a paladin weapon that can only be used by good and never hit good alignment it magically becomes the bane of evil masterwork sword of holy destruction of evil and everyone around can pretend it steals the evil forces of the being and transfroms it to postitive energy to heal the vielder

not lets pretend.. just for fun that the part paladin weapon that can only be used by good and never hit good alignment is already in place as a true paladin has to act this way and this rule is set it stone...

so now we are left with a weapo that never hits a good person and transforms evil life force into pure positive energy...

is that okey with the paladin rule book?

No. Paladins should never ever use it. It is vile.

you think anyone will hear the word of a bloody pirate?

Hoihe wrote:Same goes with Animating the Dead, there's no subjective interpretations to whether it's good
And some consider hanging evil for it can cause undue suffering over a blade through spine.(either from assassination or form of execution.)

Hanging can accidentally lead to undue suffering. Good aligned characters are supposed to act good but this is a feudalistic, rough fantasy world. There is no air condition, there is no 21st century enlightenment, this is a hard world.

It doesn't say it's evil anywhere, and Dzidek made a good point. If the ability was simply relabelled, and advertised as a paladin ability. They'd use it. Even if the whole this is the exact same thing just in different clothing.


As for hanging, in medieval eras.. I think nobles were executed by sword, not rope. A chaotic character could take offence, and say common criminals get the same "prestige".

Actually.. Game of Thrones:

"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword."
―Eddard Stark



While there certainly isn't any alignment system in GoT Universe, Eddard Stark's line is what a Chaotic/Lawful Good Aligned character could say if there was no other way than execution.

Very well, let's clear this up.

In Tabletop both the spell Vampiric Touch and the Vampiric weapon property do not cause Negative Energy Damage. That's right. There's no evil connotations there. It is no different than an animal eating it's prey to regain it's strength.

Does that make using it on sentient creatures evil? Probably. Eating any sentient is debatable about being bad but for some monstrous heroic characters it may not even be a consideration if they're eating evil villains (take a look at Dragons). I'd like to see the source if anyone wishes to cement that train of thought, otherwise it's all hearsay.

Vampiric Touch (used to create the Vampiric weapon property) deals an undefined damage type as it simply transfers hitpoints. There is no Evil descriptor, there is no DEATH descriptor (that means in tabletop even a Deathward will not block it, nor will Damage Reduction, nothing at all can mitigate the damage if it's successfully inflicted), and it's a flat siphon. Your hitpoints are now mine.

The same goes for the Vampiric weapon property - "A vampiric weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage to any living creature it hits," and that's that. 1d6 extra damage. No damage type, no blocking it.

Healing Sting (Necromancy) works the same way. You hit your enemy and their life force transfers to you. There's a reverse form of this spell, also from the Necromancy School and found in the Book of Exalted Deeds with the Healing subschool (yes, Healing subschool inside of Necromancy; unheard of!), called Blood of the Martyr.

One of the key features of the Necromancy school is the manipulation of life forces. Siphoning essence from one living vessel into another is a perfect example of this, it's an osmosis of life energy. It only works on the living.

But no matter what you say there's zero evil inherently involved with any of the properties. A gaping fanged mouth on your weapon that eats enemies isn't evil, it's scary, like a lion. Scary like a lion trying to eat you.

Now do keep in mind that lions aren't evil, butterflies are evil, and if my sword sprouts little butterfly wings and you see a butterfly tongue instead of a blade that's trying to devour your children and suckle on your tears of grief and anguish then you know it's an evil weapon.

Feudalism is the power of the ruling class (nobles and the greedy dukes) rested on their control of arable land, leading to a class society based upon the exploitation of the peasants (in the farmlands north of Baldur's Gate) who farm these lands, typically under serfdom.

Feudalism is considered a system for structuring society around partnerships established from the holding of land in exchange for service or labour, and one of the defining characteristics of a feudal society is many, scattered political groups. Look at the general make-up of Baldur's Gate, and tell me there isn't guilds vying for influence everywhere within it.

Also, in feudalism, the society pretends it's controlled by one force, in our case, it'd be the Dukes. OOC knowledge would say otherwise.

DM Mouse wrote:Does that make using it on sentient creatures evil? Probably. Eating any sentient is debatable about being bad but for some monstrous heroic characters it may not even be a consideration if they're eating evil villains (take a look at Dragons). I'd like to see the source if anyone wishes to cement that train of thought, otherwise it's all hearsay.

King Bruenor Battlehammer made soup from giants brains in the novel The Crystal Shard.

There was also rules included in one of the 2nd Ed. Dragon Magazines for the special effects of eating various Dragon parts. It's safe to say that in FR there's muddy waters on eating other sentient creatures but it's been proven that even a heroic NG racist character has literally done it and not fallen to evil as a result (Bruenor).

That being said if your weapon is eating your enemies it's not going to be any more evil than stewing their brains for soup (which is to say it's not for a dwarf. Silly racists.).

DM Mouse wrote:

DM Mouse wrote:Does that make using it on sentient creatures evil? Probably. Eating any sentient is debatable about being bad but for some monstrous heroic characters it may not even be a consideration if they're eating evil villains (take a look at Dragons). I'd like to see the source if anyone wishes to cement that train of thought, otherwise it's all hearsay.

King Bruenor Battlehammer made soup from giants brains in the novel The Crystal Shard.

There was also rules included in one of the 2nd Ed. Dragon Magazines for the special effects of eating various Dragon parts. It's safe to say that in FR there's muddy waters on eating other sentient creatures but it's been proven that even a heroic NG racist character has literally done it and not fallen to evil as a result (Bruenor).

That being said if your weapon is eating your enemies it's not going to be any more evil than stewing their brains for soup (which is to say it's not for a dwarf. Silly racists.).

Let's not forget dwarves also eat pickled orc feet though..

Hitman Hard wrote:

Hoihe wrote:Same goes with Animating the Dead, there's no subjective interpretations to whether it's good
And some consider hanging evil for it can cause undue suffering over a blade through spine.(either from assassination or form of execution.)

Hanging can accidentally lead to undue suffering. Good aligned characters are supposed to act good but this is a feudalistic, rough fantasy world. There is no air condition, there is no 21st century enlightenment, this is a hard world.

Yes, for how the world works. But in a world of absolute good, that good is not "rough and feudalistic" - and so its not how a paladin acts