Needed Advice for a Necromancer build

[Karond]

Being undead is to be in a limbo of sorts, caught between death and life. A state that perhaps causes constant pain, which makes undead lash out at anyone living.

Being a bloodmage is also about being in the limbo between death and life. All bloodmages have died, but due to some freak occurence were brought back to "life". Fuelling off their and others blood, they're not technically alive but also caught in this limbo. This is evident if you read one of the few extensive sources on bloodmages (or even, the only one?) from the FR book "Bloodwalk".

A palemaster isn't an undead being. It's a creature that, or so I've been led to believe, is able to substitute some of his life energy with negative energy. Thus, he can live longer, suffer less physical pain and is less reliant on his physical body (which partially rots away).

There is no doubt that a bloodmage can have interest in necromancy. Indeed, it seems to be the school that they would feel the most drawn towards (kinship). A palemaster combination however seems to have something of a conflict between negative energy and life energy, a tug-of-war, but the RP is possible. For example, the allure of the palemaster could be to limit your own physical pain or to understand the only beings who even remotely share the same state of being as yourself (bloodmages are rare, so it's not like they run into each other). They both share a macabre fascination for death.

Necromancy snuffs the life energy out of a victim, while a bloodmage uses it. Perhaps some insane mage is trying to combine it, withdrawing life energy from a victim leaving them a hollow husk, and then using that very same life energy for their next spells/to reinvigorate themselves instead of having it dissipate. A bloodmage may even argue that turning towards a palemaster is a sensible choice, in that it limits themselves to suffer from the same weakness that they happily exploit in living beings (due to not having as much blood).

I think the RP is definitely possible.

[Aelcar]

I think so too. Mastery over life and death...mages are a greedy sort...why not? I figure this kind of individual would see every other mage focusing on one of the two aspects only as "limited", "narrow-minded".

Everything is possible with a good background and a well built character. There are many ways to make a rather unusual character which in view of his or her well thought-out and developed background is just as believable as any "classic" one.

[dzidek1983]

bloodmage/palemaster

kinda gives me an idea of a Vampire...

undead with a sick interest in blood

ofc we cant RP a vampire.. but it gives you a glimpse of how it is
take enchantement specialisation (with shadow adept if possible) and domintate all those weaklings and them put bloodrunes on them so you can sneak into their bedrooms in the night when they sleep

[Ilron]

Everyone made some good points. My character is a tiefling, too, so I suppose I could tie that in somewhere... I do suppose it's all possible with proper reasoning.

Right now I'm level 13(Level 9 Wizard, Level 4 Pale Master), so I was thinking of a basic 10Wiz/10PM/10BM, but I have this feeling in my gut that 10 levels in BM wouldn't be worth it? What do you think? And should I pick it up after I'm done with Wiz and PM levels or squeeze some BM inbetween?

I've been following this build so far:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?187948
So I wonder if it could be adjustable by, say, replacing those 4 levels of archmage with BM and after Wiz reaches 10, just continue with BM? OR just go 10Wiz/10PM/4Archmage/6BM?

[NegInfinity]

Being undead is to be in a limbo of sorts, caught between death and life. A state that perhaps causes constant pain, which makes undead lash out at anyone living.

That does not seem to match any information I know from libris mortis. Undead hunger (some of them), and some of them are mindless... agressive behavior is caused by the link to negative energy plane, IIRC. The best description for sentient undead is "being frozen in time", I believe.

Hidden: show

The living spend their time living life and gathering expe-
rience, thereby shaping their personalities and adjusting to
the world as it changes around them. In contrast, the undead
mind sees the passage of time very differently. Undead exist,
they do not live. Life means change, and while undead endure
over time and learn new facts, they rarely change or appreciate
new paradigms. Aside from a rare few exceptions, an undead’s
outlook remains stagnant over the decades, or centuries, of
its existence, despite new experiences and new situations it
may encounter.
This infl exible mental nature is the reason many ancient
undead seem insane. In fact, they may merely be operating
with goals and aspirations that are slightly out of step with the
present world. Unfortunately, like any ambition that cannot
be swayed by reason or tempered by changing circumstances,
the goals of the stubborn immortal undead become a canker-
ous evil that can only be excised. While a living creature
may accept compromise when life hands it a new challenge,
undead can rarely do anything other than what they have
always done.

Hidden: show

Unlike living creatures, which grow and mature throughout
their life cycles, undead are usually changeless, frozen in the
moment of their creation. Most are cursed to never adopt new
philosophies, or change with the uncertainties and lessons of
life, or ever fi nd happiness.
An undead that persists for century after century sometimes
fi nds ways to grow in strength and knowledge. Its connection
to the Negative Energy Plane, originally a mere trickle, can
become an actual current over hundreds of years, and given
enough time, a mighty stream.

If op is interested in understanding undead (in D&D/FR, anyway), libris mortis is a good reading. There's a lot of useful info on pages 8..20 - physiology, mental state, societies, etc.

[dzidek1983]

well personally i see any necromancer with a PM PRC

but otoh i also know its not really needed, PM is just for flavor, a necromancer could be a pure wizard, or any other class combination...

its obvious a Necromancer lives off DC's, low DC's mean you will be bad at killing things

thats why an obvious choice are classes that support bonuses to DC's

those are Red Wizard, Shadow Adept, Archmage and Blood Mage... IIRC

now you need to decide which class you like the most, they all have Cons and Pros

Red Wizard - application class and you loose spell schools
Shadow Adept - application class and you make other schools weaker
Archmage - high requirements and you loose spell slots for new abilities
Blood Mage - bounds you to play semi-evil character with abilties banned in civilized worlds, best ability costs gold to quickened spells

you also need to remeber to have a backup plan... cos your main enemy is Shadow Shield

[Aelcar]

Good points.

well personally i see any necromancer with a PM PRC

but otoh i also know its not really needed, PM is just for flavor, a necromancer could be a pure wizard, or any other class combination...

its obvious a Necromancer lives off DC's, low DC's mean you will be bad at killing things

thats why an obvious choice are classes that support bonuses to DC's

those are Red Wizard, Shadow Adept, Archmage and Blood Mage... IIRC

now you need to decide which class you like the most, they all have Cons and Pros

Almost all true, although necromancers have several spells in their arsenal that increase the likelihood their save or die spells will deliver.

Red Wizard - application class and you loose spell schools

Very specific RP, hostility, but engaging and fascinating. A wonderful faction to be in, if you put some work in studying them before creating one. However, A MAGE FOR EXPERTS, because you lose, among others, Shades, Premonition, Shadow Shield and Shadow Simulacrum. And it's terrible.

Shadow Adept - application class and you make other schools weaker

What you gain is much, much more than what you lose, so you'll be fine. HOWEVER, this toon is a SHARRAN. Talking about restrictive RP.

Archmage - high requirements and you loose spell slots for new abilities

And big multiclassing restrictions, as well. You need a bit of experience with arcanes to play this one well, but it's a good class.

Blood Mage - bounds you to play semi-evil character with abilties banned in civilized worlds, best ability costs gold to quickened spells

+3 CL, scars, draughts, high HP for a mage, several very good abilities like Awaken the Blood and permanent +2 CON...this one is, mechanically, the best we have on the server currently. The RP is also rich, so if you like the concept, go for it.

you also need to remeber to have a backup plan... cos your main enemy is Shadow Shield

This is the only point I disagree on. Shadow Shield is the first thing to go after Shades/Premo, which means any Lesser Breach will remove it. Your main enemies are powerful Undead, Constructs and other creatures immune to death effects, as well as Death Ward, because you need a Mordenkainen's dispel roll to get rid of it.

[Ilron]

I'm aware of the possible choices and how they work. A bloodmage seems more interesting and fitting for a pale master. People keep telling me "you must decide what you want first" but I've said it several times now - bloodmage.

Evil characters are my speciality. I've been RPing in games for over 10 years so don't worry - I will do all the additional research and do my best to make it convincing RP-wise, but at the moment I would like to re-direct everyone to my previous post.

Right now I'm level 13(Level 9 Wizard, Level 4 Pale Master), so I was thinking of a basic 10Wiz/10PM/10BM, but I have this feeling in my gut that 10 levels in BM wouldn't be worth it? What do you think? And should I pick it up after I'm done with Wiz and PM levels or squeeze some BM inbetween?

I've been following this build so far:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?187948
So I wonder if it could be adjustable by, say, replacing those 4 levels of archmage with BM and after Wiz reaches 10, just continue with BM?

Since I'm a know-nothing from a technical standpoint, I try to follow builds, so if anyone could give some good advice as to how I could implement this bloodmage idea while staying on track, I would be very grateful.

[dzidek1983]

do you need 10 PM?

[Ilron]

I don't exactly need it, but I thought it's beneficial. How come? Is it not worth it? A lot of builds suggest 10 levels in it.

[dzidek1983]

yes but we can f.ex. stop at lvl 4 that gives you +4 AC and in the same time it doesnt force you to RP an arm implant and you wont stink ike undead... you could get away with a slightly strange skin...

it will also allow to get f.ex. more wizard levels for more epic feats...

the build then could be wizard 20 / Pm 4 / BM 6

with blood seeking spell etc your CL would be 32 (with practiced ofc) so you would gain a bonus DC point for epic caster levels
you also retain the key BM abiities: Blood Component, Blood Seeking Spell, Scarification
the build allows you to get more epic feats, so you will end with at least +2 INT over the 10/10/10 split (or any other 2 epic feats)

[Ilron]

I actually used to be proud of having a character who is so insane he'd amputate his arm for a new one(not that I showed it to anyone) - it felt unique. As for the smell, most people just assumed he needed an immediate bath. Of course all the visual conditions constricted the RP in a way, but my goal was to endure these hardships until I become so powerful that I wouldn't have to hide them anymore(within common sense and reason of course and having strong allies).

I think 20wiz/4pm/6bm would seem like a powerful wizard that had just recently begun descending to true dark changes(both physical and mental). 4PM and 6BM feel like neither of them have anything impressive to show. Not to mention losing immunity to hold, stun, paralysis, criticals, a strong summon and the death ray itself or BM's bloodwalk and awaken blood.

BUT you can't have everything, I suppose... I'm at a crossroad.

the build allows you to get more epic feats, so you will end with at least +2 INT over the 10/10/10 split

Initially it was a human, but I had RCR'd the character as a tiefling(+2 int), though, so I had 20INT at character creation, if that changes anything?

[NegInfinity]

Initially it was a human, but I had RCR'd the character as a tiefling(+2 int), though, so I had 20INT at character creation, if that changes anything?

Well, rcring as tiefling will cause you to level up at slower rate than human. Because of ECL. The difference is very noticeable at early levels (below 10), less noticeable at later levels.

Also, I would advise to plan build in such way that it will be perfectly playable at level 20. Because leveling speed slows to crawl starting from level 21. Do not expect to reach level 30 quickly or to reach it at all.

[dzidek1983]

no the tihng is the more pure clas swizard you maintain then you can afford more epic feats, wizard gets a bonus feat every 5 level so you will get one on lvl 5, 10,15 and 20

if you manage to leave the 10 wizard levels for epics it means you just pushed those 2 bonus feats to epic levels

i'll check this manually for you

the first example a 10/10/10 split with 5 wizard levels in the epics - you have 6 epic feats and 8 pre-epic feats

the second example a 20/4/6 split with 10 wizard levels in the epics - you have 7 epic feats and 9 pre-epic feats

both builds have the same stats

the difference is 2 feats

if you want to play a 10/10/10 split then its also a good choice and dont hesitate
it just costs you those 2 feats but you do get the PM immunities and summons and the late BM abilities which are cool tbh

[Ilron]

Well, rcring as tiefling will cause you to level up at slower rate than human. Because of ECL. The difference is very noticeable at early levels (below 10), less noticeable at later levels.

Oh, of course I'm aware of this, otherwise I would have not RCR'd him to one It's a sacrifice I'm willing to take for +2 int. How

Also, I would advise to plan build in such way that it will be perfectly playable at level 20. Because leveling speed slows to crawl starting from level 21. Do not expect to reach level 30 quickly or to reach it at all.

Yes, it is very concerning, hence why I made the thread. I'm only level 13(good thing it's still early so I can plan without making mistakes) now and it already feels like nothing is happening unless I get a lucky group of people to take me to giants. Wizards, imo, have an especially rough time solo-ing because the creature summons are weak and the undead summons make you paranoid(or interrupt your leveling, sometimes even for a long while, if anyone finds out). Not to mention that any summon tends to be brain-dead and will stand behind you, with you or run past the enemy regardless of commands and settings... so broken it hurts. Literally.

the difference is 2 feats

Thank you for checking! Would you say these 2 feats make a world of a difference? I already have 9 levels in Wizard(+4PM), so I should probably leave the 10th for epics. Also, should I take blood magus levels soon or leave them for later, like 17 and up? I've also heard of suggestions for 10Wiz/10PM/6BM/4Something(maybe Archemage) - does that sound liable? I heard 10th level BM spells are pretty much useless except for RP.