Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Reserve feats are a waste of a feat on a mage build. Even on arcane trickster builds. Having watched SteveBaraccuda with his invisible needle character, try to correctly position the character for the sneak attack to fire, loses even any fun factor very quickly.

Aelcar wrote: Hm, yes, except:

Aelcar wrote: there is no mechanical reason whatsoever that can justify a Reserve Feat.

I understand you're salty, frands, but last time I checked taking senteces out of context to ignite the forums was considered bad form .

My post was clearly directed at the "mages are gods in pvp" "no they r not, go fite my friend, he'll rek u"
And the suggestion that wizards are balanced because they are so strong in pvp yet "not so strong" in pve.

I find it bad form to talk about pvp and treat pvp like it's the plague itself, then concern yourself with balance from the pvp side of things. (no, this one is not directed at you in particular Aelcar, but at the community as a whole).

I can turn the argument around, Thids. I play mages and I'm not a very good player. I don't actually get into PvP a lot because I avoid it (and you know very well that I don't like including PvP in balance discussions), but when I do, I'm not exactly likely to win the PvP just because I play a mage. Indeed, the fact that I'm not a good player means it's likely I'm going to lose.

The reason people think mages are good in pvp is because of their utility. Their damage is low, their AC tends to be pretty low compared to other things and their HP is just a joke. Utility is what mages have that no one else has (although one could argue bards have some utility). But a lot of that comes from bigbies, breaches and spell mantles. If you have enough UMD, you can get scrolls for these things and have pretty decent utility as well. And you'll do more damage with almost anything else than a mage.

Now, there is little denying that asoc+shadowdancer mages have an edge. But that's not because they're mages. It's because of hips. You can hear stories of warlock shadowdancers being very hard to face in pvp. That is, if they were controlled by good players.

EDIT: I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced (nor do I think it should be, but that's another topic). I am saying people are exaggerating.

Or not ... resist temptation

Listing the highest level spells and each class for each reserve feat below (I neglected bards ...) :

Acidic Splatter (acid (!))
Trigger Spells: Greater Shadow Conjuration (wizard 7), Storm of Vengeance (druid, cleric 9)

Clap of Thunder (sound)
Trigger Spells: Greater Shout (wiz 8), Castigate , Lion's Roar (cleric 8), nothing for druids ?

Fiery Burst (fire)
Trigger Spells: Deadly Lahar (druid 8), Fire Storm (cleric 8), Meteor Swarm (wiz 9)

Storm Bolt (electricity)
Trigger Spells: Chain Lightning (wiz 6), storm of Vengeance (cleric, druid 9)

Winters Blast (cold)
Trigger Spells: Shades (wiz 9), Glacial Wrath (druid 9), hypothermia (cleric 4)

Invisible Needle (magical)
Trigger Spells: Bigbys Crushing Hand (wiz 9), no cleric, no druid

Umbral Shroud
Trigger Spells: Mass Blindness and Deafness (wiz 8), no cleric, no druid

Sickening Grasp
Trigger Spells: Create Greater Undead (cleric 8), Finger of Death (druid 8),Wail of the Banshee (wiz 9)

Simply looking at the elemental ones you can see there are holes : no sound for druids and no (decent) cold for clerics, then to a lesser extent no good electricity trigger spell for wizards.

well soon there will be new spell right make sure that we get spell that fit for those Feats reserve

and i wish we could have ray and beam and blast like the spells we have for wizard and priest and druid

Thids wrote: My post was clearly directed at the "mages are gods in pvp" "no they r not, go fite my friend, he'll rek u"
And the suggestion that wizards are balanced because they are so strong in pvp yet "not so strong" in pve.

You're so bitter, it's hard to have a constructive dialogue. You should change the above with:

"mages are god in pvp" "no, they have their strengths and weaknesses. If you play against someone who knows them, it's easy to lose even as a mage"

and

the suggestion wizards are balanced because they have strong spells but limited in use and need to manage them carefully

What you said is a construct out of your own belief. Certainly not mine, and not what I said.

I find it bad form to talk about pvp and treat pvp like it's the plague itself, then concern yourself with balance from the pvp side of things. (no, this one is not directed at you in particular Aelcar, but at the community as a whole).

I'm glad, because I gladly talk about PvP for fun, I never treated it like the plague, and rarely proposed any balance changes for PvP reasons, if ever. Good it wasn't directed at me, LOL!!

mrm3ntalist wrote:Reserve feats are a waste of a feat on a mage build. Even on arcane trickster builds. Having watched SteveBaraccuda with his invisible needle character, try to correctly position the character for the sneak attack to fire, loses even any fun factor very quickly.

You should play one yourself instead of watching someone else play it.

Invisible needle is not a good choice, because damage is low. It is reserve reserve feat. With reserve based trickster you keep shooting one of the elemental attacks and when you run into something that is immune to your favorite element, then you switch to invisible needle. When you run into something that is immune to magic too, you run away.

Reserve-feat based arcane trickster is not a full blown mage. It is magical thief, so the whole talk about dcs and controllers and what not does not apply here - that's not archmage/asoc. Relying on thralls and dcs and offensive spells means there was little point in taking AT levels to begin with. Go full-blown archmage/arcane scholar thatumaturge instead. While summoning a loud walking pile of rocks or bringing into play a nearby monster might make sense in some situation for some rogues, it is extremely unsubtle option for AT.

Reserve feats have synergy with rogue sneak attacks so after getting 20 levels as wizard you have fairly good reason to keep leveling as rogue, which means more skill monkeying.

Aiming and positioning character is incredibly easy too, I have maybe failed to trigger sneak attack 1 or 2 times out of thousands. So I have no idea how you managed to find any difficulty there.

Arcane Trickster blaster is versatile. You can go forever without buffing (because magic is your ammo), you can still craft wands and play merchant, you can temporarily take place of a party buffer, it is a great support, you have more skill points than wizard and you have familiar. It is also incredibly tough at levels 12...18, past 21 it will be slowly getting overpowered (it will still be able to tag along and survive tougher encounters), but then again there's not much point in playing past 21, because it gets very boring very fast and there's literally nothing fun to do.

The class plays as hybrid of rogue, warlock and wizard. Infinite ammo, like warlock, skill monkey like a rogue, and arcane spells like a wizard, but you don't really rely on them all the time. Of course, sorcerer-based trickster blaster will be clearly suboptimal (loss of versatiity, because you'll need to either abandon int or rely on 3 stats instead of two) and there is little reason to have reserve feats on divine caster aside from maybe some RP purpose or showing off.

It is one of the two or three most entertaining combinations I played on the server. AT blaster does not need crude weapons (like crossbow) it is quite obviously a mage, at the same time it is not alignment locked like warlock, it can be thieving and cowardly and there's plenty of reason for other mages to sneer at the character for wasting talents on rogue skills instead of fully embracing "the art". Definitely not a front-line character, of course, more of "kill things by running away from them".

There's a lot of potential for fun here. Instead I hear "feats are not needed, you should go for summons, dcs, etc". Which is why I said it is depressing. Apparently at least some people are so caught up in DCs and steamrolling things that they no longer recognize rp potential for fun even when hits them right in the face. What the hell, guys?

If you wanna steamroll, play as favored soul. Pretty much playing on easy mode with godmode enabled, also the most boring thing to do, mechanically. If you wanna steamroll with magic, there is arcane scholar (even though various combos that involve that class are highly improbable).

Deathgrowl wrote: The reason people think mages are good in pvp is because of their utility. Their damage is low, their AC tends to be pretty low compared to other things and their HP is just a joke.

The reason why people think mages are good is because of their high damage output and high defensive abilities.

A decent wizard can hold melee fighter in place or just fire IGMS which can only be blocked with mantles and deals (at cl 20) 40d6 damage straightaway. Decent sorcerer will spam that. IGMS, then ILMS, then 20 fireballs, then magic missles, then gate in a devil/angel, go ethereal laugh maniacally for 5 minutes straight, throw solipsism at you and teleport away just because they can all the while you're held in place by bigsby. You won't do that with scrolls, because their damage output and duration is laughable compared to real mage.

Mages have many ways to ignore or avoid damage completely. Concealment (% chance to miss completely), mirror image (high chance to miss completely), greater stoneskin (which doubles their hp and can be replenished). How about just going invisible or ethereal?

That is why mages are good in pvp. Unless you're REALLY good at that ridiculous magical rock-paper-scissors that is nwn2 magic system, fight with mage means death in few rounds at the beginning of fight or prolonged conflict with opponent running away undefeated. Oh yeah, if you somehow manage to trick mage into wasting all the spells (can be done), it will be a squishy opponent. Good luck accomplishing that, though. The only other way is to learn ins and outs of arcane magic and try to counter everything with wands, scrolls, etc. Kills fun in the game completely, because knowing mechanical ins and outs of magic is out of character most of the time, unless you're playing a full blown wizard.

At the very least this list should be used in order for all classes to have a high level spell for every reserve feat? I think Rasael wont have any trouble "fixing" this

Valefort wrote:

Or not ... resist temptation

Listing the highest level spells and each class for each reserve feat below (I neglected bards ...) :

Acidic Splatter (acid (!))
Trigger Spells: Greater Shadow Conjuration (wizard 7), Storm of Vengeance (druid, cleric 9)

Clap of Thunder (sound)
Trigger Spells: Greater Shout (wiz 8), Castigate , Lion's Roar (cleric 8), nothing for druids ?

Fiery Burst (fire)
Trigger Spells: Deadly Lahar (druid 8), Fire Storm (cleric 8), Meteor Swarm (wiz 9)

Storm Bolt (electricity)
Trigger Spells: Chain Lightning (wiz 6), storm of Vengeance (cleric, druid 9)

Winters Blast (cold)
Trigger Spells: Shades (wiz 9), Glacial Wrath (druid 9), hypothermia (cleric 4)

Invisible Needle (magical)
Trigger Spells: Bigbys Crushing Hand (wiz 9), no cleric, no druid

Umbral Shroud
Trigger Spells: Mass Blindness and Deafness (wiz 8), no cleric, no druid

Sickening Grasp
Trigger Spells: Create Greater Undead (cleric 8), Finger of Death (druid 8),Wail of the Banshee (wiz 9)

Simply looking at the elemental ones you can see there are holes : no sound for druids and no (decent) cold for clerics, then to a lesser extent no good electricity trigger spell for wizards.

NegInfinity we dont wish to play a summons wizard or powerfull wizard that only use igms this about those feat and those feat is for low lvls wizard not high ones that can summon morster nightmare there many ways how to play a wizard many powerfull wizard use to die soon or later couse it is the way he is that matter

Aelcar wrote:

Thids wrote: My post was clearly directed at the "mages are gods in pvp" "no they r not, go fite my friend, he'll rek u"
And the suggestion that wizards are balanced because they are so strong in pvp yet "not so strong" in pve.

You're so bitter, it's hard to have a constructive dialogue. You should change the above with:

"mages are god in pvp" "no, they have their strengths and weaknesses. If you play against someone who knows them, it's easy to lose even as a mage"

and

the suggestion wizards are balanced because they have strong spells but limited in use and need to manage them carefully

What you said is a construct out of your own belief. Certainly not mine, and not what I said.

I find it bad form to talk about pvp and treat pvp like it's the plague itself, then concern yourself with balance from the pvp side of things. (no, this one is not directed at you in particular Aelcar, but at the community as a whole).

I'm glad, because I gladly talk about PvP for fun, I never treated it like the plague, and rarely proposed any balance changes for PvP reasons, if ever. Good it wasn't directed at me, LOL!!

Hey Aelcar, here's a bit of information no one else has probably ever dared to tell you: The world does in fact not revolve around you and the posts made on this forum are not always directly pointed at you and you alone. I will make sure to mark my posts that are not directed at you appropriately in the future, to make it easier on you.


Is this the part where I drop the "lel u mad" line or something? Idk, I'm trying to follow your format of "constructive" dialogue.

Almost everything said about mages above is critically flawed.

I say this based on my experience on the server. I played 4x mages far beyond lvl 30 on the server (you might call them "sufficiently accomplished", for different reasons), plus 3x others till the high epics (25-27+, but not really meaningful aside from the mechanical side of the story).

I don't believe anyone claiming those things has ever played a mage seriously.

Also, Arcane Trickster deals more dmg literally doing anything else BUT using Reserve Feats. Going on for hours is not a merit when everything is dead and you can rest & restart, and kill 2x times faster because you do not gimp yourself using subpar attacks. It's a flavor/RP choice. There is no mechanical merit in it. Which was the question the OP asked.

Actually if you reread the OP lockon was more worried about the fact that some reserve feats are better than others.

Aelcar wrote: I don't believe anyone claiming those things has ever played a mage seriously.

Frankly, believe whatever your want. You know what they say about opinions? Everybody has one. "I played", "I believe" does not have any useful info in it.

Aelcar wrote: Also, Arcane Trickster deals more dmg literally doing anything else BUT using Reserve Feats. Going on for hours is not a merit when everything is dead and you can rest & restart, and kill 2x times faster because you do not gimp yourself using subpar attacks. It's a flavor/RP choice.

Would be nice if you stopped thinking that everybody should play AT the way you did it.

For example, those "thralls" people mentioned, they are unable to pass through certain doors which makes them useless on several areas.

High damage spells cause problems when you run out of them and people enjoy different things in the game..

With blaster AT you have all the time in the world. Buff up, walk in and slowly work through the dungeon alone, killing things, sniping out guards, looting out boxes and collecting traps. Incredibly enjoyable and incredibly satisfying. You can also stalk people, set up shops behind the throne of area boss, etc. Fun. Standard "rush in and kill everything" is very boring in comparison.

Aelcar wrote:There is no mechanical merit in it. Which was the question the OP asked.

Nope. That's NOT the question OP asked. OP asked:

some thing i was wondering about the feat reserve I belive they are waste of time well not all of them but few are do you wish to know ? well 2 of them are not, there 4 or 5 of them

No mention of "mechanical benefit" anywhere. That was your assumption, which wasn't really based on anything. No idea why people started immediately talking about pvp, combat, high dc and all other nonsense.

And the answer to his question is:

The feats are useful for arcane trickster wizard because of synergy with rogue sneak attacks, main benefit is around levels 12..18 and decreases after that. They're mostly useful for sneakmage skillmonkeys that lean toward being rogue rather than a mage and have little use aside from being RP tools for other classes. The resulting character won't be incredibly powerful (meaning it won't steamroll great white), but will be able to hold ground and work through many dungeons alone, and can temporarily switch to support role if necessary. Jack of all trades of sorts, cowardly behavior is recommended.

Lockonnow wrote:some thing i was wondering about the feat reserve I belive they are waste of time well not all of them but few are do you wish to know ? well 2 of them are not, there 4 or 5 of them

Hey lockon, yes they are a waste of time, I think all of them especially in the end game - epics.

For those who are of the opinion that are worth the investment Valeforts list was posted in the QC forums and we will see if something can be done so that there are high level spells for all reserve feats for druids and clerics as well.

They will still be a waste of a feat and time, but thats my opinion. As was previously stated, everyone has one.