Why does the True Believer feat exist?

[Ithilan]

Not everyone is playing this game with some sense of elitism to their build design, you might wanna keep that in mind before you start trashing people for their choices. The ultimate goal is to have fun and we each contribute to that in our own way.

The emphasis on "uselesness" by so many people here is very sad and confirms why I think PvP is pathetic in this game, because your designing a character around a powerful concept rather than designing the build around the character. But ill just withdraw from the topic instead of defending individual freedom of choice and commitment to a concept.

[grymhild]

Rilae'ar'an is a cleric 20/bard 3/fighter 4/dervish 3 and has True Believer to reflect that she is zealously devoted to her goddess.

also if we had Divine Disciple as a PrC, the True Believer feat and her rp should probably qualify her for the class.

Among the disciples of any religion are a rare few individuals whose devotion to their deity goes far above and beyond the norm.

[mrm3ntalist]

Not everyone is playing this game with some sense of elitism to their build design, you might wanna keep that in mind before you start trashing people for their choices. The ultimate goal is to have fun and we each contribute to that in our own way.

The emphasis on "uselesness" by so many people here is very sad and confirms why I think PvP is pathetic in this game, because your designing a character around a powerful concept rather than designing the build around the character. But ill just withdraw from the topic instead of defending individual freedom of choice and commitment to a concept.

- There is no elitism in this post, nor any other I or anyone else made in this topic
- No one said anything about PvP. In fact I am certain that most here think the same with you about PvP.

So instead of making assumptions, you can see the facts. This is an RP DnD game that is based on certain mechanics. True Believer, mechanicaly does nothing. RP wise, it does nothing as well. Its like implementing a PRC that does nothing.

I have taken this feat on one of my builds and never complained or thought about doing so. This doesnt change the fact that it is a poorly implemented feat.

Finally, it is not nice to refer to people that you dont know as elitists or pvp whatever. Defending individual freedom of choice and commitment to a concept goes both ways

[thids]

Not everyone is playing this game with some sense of elitism to their build design, you might wanna keep that in mind before you start trashing people for their choices. The ultimate goal is to have fun and we each contribute to that in our own way.

The emphasis on "uselesness" by so many people here is very sad and confirms why I think PvP is pathetic in this game, because your designing a character around a powerful concept rather than designing the build around the character. But ill just withdraw from the topic instead of defending individual freedom of choice and commitment to a concept.

I could VERY easily turn this argument around in regards to elitism in the direction of those who think that playing "rp builds" with feats that do absolutely nothing makes their character concept and roleplay superior in one way or another.

[Hoihe]

Not everyone is playing this game with some sense of elitism to their build design, you might wanna keep that in mind before you start trashing people for their choices. The ultimate goal is to have fun and we each contribute to that in our own way.

The emphasis on "uselesness" by so many people here is very sad and confirms why I think PvP is pathetic in this game, because your designing a character around a powerful concept rather than designing the build around the character. But ill just withdraw from the topic instead of defending individual freedom of choice and commitment to a concept.

- There is no elitism in this post, nor any other I or anyone else made in this topic
- No one said anything about PvP. In fact I am certain that most here think the same with you about PvP.

So instead of making assumptions, you can see the facts. This is an RP DnD game that is based on certain mechanics. True Believer, mechanicaly does nothing. RP wise, it does nothing as well. Its like implementing a PRC that does nothing.

I have taken this feat on one of my builds and never complained or thought about doing so. This doesnt change the fact that it is a poorly implemented feat.

Finally, it is not nice to refer to people that you dont know as elitists or pvp whatever. Defending individual freedom of choice and commitment to a concept goes both ways

Can confirm the no RP effect myself.

I harrassed the DMs for quite a while to get an answer on whether or not True Believer means anything RP-wise. Nope, nothing.

You can be just as a staunch believer without TB as with it, and nobody bats an eye as long as it's indeed the deity on your sheet or you're a very good performer/liar.

[Considerate_]

I don't understand why there's a need to pursue this direction in the discussion...

If someone wants to pick the feat, and feels that enhances their concept of Roleplaying - then who are any of us, to tell them off?

If you don't feel it does anything for you, then you're not enforced to pick the feat. No one is demanding it of you. If you pick it because you want a prestige class, then you've picked it for a reason.


This isn't a case of 'nothing or all'. The feat can exist, and you can pick it or not at your leisure.

[mrm3ntalist]

Rilae'ar'an is a cleric 20/bard 3/fighter 4/dervish 3 and has True Believer to reflect that she is zealously devoted to her goddess.

also if we had Divine Disciple as a PrC, the True Believer feat and her rp should probably qualify her for the class.

Among the disciples of any religion are a rare few individuals whose devotion to their deity goes far above and beyond the norm.

Very nicely done!

Now how would it affect your concept or RP, if the True Believer gave for example a bonus on Will saves in order to reflect that devotion. Of course, this is a rhetoric question. We all know the answer to this

I don't understand why there's a need to pursue this direction in the discussion...

If someone wants to pick the feat, and feels that enhances their concept of Roleplaying - then who are any of us, to tell them off?

If you don't feel it does anything for you, then you're not enforced to pick the feat. No one is demanding it of you. If you pick it because you want a prestige class, then you've picked it for a reason.

I would add to this.

If you feel that the feat is underwhelming, you can say so, without being called elitist or PvP monger

[thids]

I don't understand why there's a need to pursue this direction in the discussion...

If someone wants to pick the feat, and feels that enhances their concept of Roleplaying - then who are any of us, to tell them off?

If you don't feel it does anything for you, then you're not enforced to pick the feat. No one is demanding it of you. If you pick it because you want a prestige class, then you've picked it for a reason.


This isn't a case of 'nothing or all'. The feat can exist, and you can pick it or not at your leisure.

People can pick whatever they want for their characters. There is no one telling them how to build them. The fact remains that the feat is useless and does nothing. The ridiculous part comes in when you consider the classes that DO take it for mechanical reasons (a prerequisite for a PrC). They are mostly clerics, which have no need for the feat in RP terms. That is just a bad design.

[matelener]

Isn't it the whole point of the dnd system? That mechanics should go in pair with the RP qualities?

I think True Believer could be merged with the Devout background and removed from the feat list. Or changed to give some bonus like sacred +1 to all saves. Right now, it looks like an additional punishment for players choosing to roll a Silverstar of Selune.

[grymhild]

I don't understand why there's a need to pursue this direction in the discussion...

If someone wants to pick the feat, and feels that enhances their concept of Roleplaying - then who are any of us, to tell them off?

If you don't feel it does anything for you, then you're not enforced to pick the feat. No one is demanding it of you. If you pick it because you want a prestige class, then you've picked it for a reason.


This isn't a case of 'nothing or all'. The feat can exist, and you can pick it or not at your leisure.

People can pick whatever they want for their characters. There is no one telling them how to build them. The fact remains that the feat is useless and does nothing. The ridiculous part comes in when you consider the classes that DO take it for mechanical reasons (a prerequisite for a PrC). They are mostly clerics, which have no need for the feat in RP terms. That is just a bad design.

our implementation of the Shadow Adept PrC requires the True Believer feat, which isn't a prerequisite for the class in pnp.

however... in pnp, Shadow Adept does require the character to have the Shadow Weave Magic feat, which isn't available as a choice for PCs , but is given for "free" at first level of Shadow Adept on our server (note: eligibility for the Shadow Adept PrC on our server also requires the Shadow Adept Qualification feat which is awarded by a DM after approval of the Shadow Adept application process)

so, at least in the case of Shadow Adept, there is no "feat tax" for taking the class.

and in this case, if the feat had a mechanical advantage, the pc would end up with what would basically be a "free" bonus. (off topic note: however it could be argued that the shadow adept should receive the Insidious Magic and Pernicious Magic feats like in pnp)

[mrm3ntalist]

our implementation of the Shadow Adept PrC requires the True Believer feat, which isn't a prerequisite for the class in pnp.

however... in pnp, Shadow Adept does require the character to have the Shadow Weave Magic feat, which isn't available as a choice for PCs , but is given for "free" at first level of Shadow Adept on our server (note: eligibility for the Shadow Adept PrC on our server also requires the Shadow Adept Qualification feat which is awarded by a DM after approval of the Shadow Adept application process)

so, at least in the case of Shadow Adept, there is no "feat tax" for taking the class.

and in this case, if the feat had a mechanical advantage, the pc would end up with what would basically be a "free" bonus. (off topic note: however it could be argued that the shadow adept should receive the Insidious Magic and Pernicious Magic feats like in pnp)

Arent most changes to PRCs/feats a "free" bonus? I mean, usually something gets added...

[NeOmega]

I've taken the feat on a couple of characters.

I see it as no big deal. It makes sense to me. You want pious templar, shadow adept, or silverstar? These are more than just devout clerics, they are characters completely dedicated to their gods. YOu give up a feat, for the powers of the PRC. If you don't feel like the powers of the PRC are worth it, don;t take the feat.

It seemed worth it to me.

[Lag]

Except that it is literally punishing anyone who wants to play those things.

They could take a better feat, pretend those classes don't exist and literally come out in a better place mechanically with the same or even a stronger character concept.

The feat does nothing to help them kill monsters and most importantly it adds nothing to their rp. It opens no doors for them as a character or them as a player. They don't get the ability to commune with their God once a month or have a question answered by an avatar of their patron.

I hazard that anyone who takes/has taken the feat would be happier to not be required to take it because it has literally no value.

[BigJ]

If I was right earlier and this feat was made to create awareness that these PRC's have some heavy lore/RP related issues then its certainly succeeded

The problem is, without a feat like this some players would have just looked at the available PRC's and thought "that looks nice", ticked a few boxes and gone running around the server with their sparkling toons.

Define 'some players' - Well, certainly no one that's posted here but I read somewhere that only 10-15% of a servers player base bother to read forums, and there's the problem. The only other option is make all those PRC's application only like Shadow Adept. Creates a little more work for the admins but will at least gets the job done of highlighting the RP expected of these classes.

I have to say some of the aggressive and unfortunate choice of words in this thread were a little disappointing to read but I just put that down to passion, we all love BG and by posting here are part of that first 10-15%.

Problem for the server admins is making sure the other 85-90% know what's expected, without having to police it all.

BigJ

[grunts]

Never understood app only classes either.

Everyone should be expected to RP the classes they take, not just Red Wizards or Shadow Adepts. You could make the most amazing Red Wizard app ever then be totally clueless in game. Add an example of how to RP the class in character creation if you have to. Would save you a ton of work in the end anyways(you might even save the Red Wizard Guild in the process).

If the app is because of balance concerns then the class should just be nerfed and opened up to all. App'ing for power is way too open to interpretation, ooc politics and personal bias. I remember awhile back on dalelands a friend of mine applied for a Forest Master and got rejected because his deity was Malar. I swear not a month later we ran into a Forest Master of Malar in game who applied for the class a week after my friend. Guess which player was an ex-DM and which wasn't :p