Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

grymhild wrote:also, give item skill bonuses "types" and don't allow bonuses of the same type to stack.

...

If I'm understanding you correctly... based on the current loot tables and the mechanics, this would make stealth utterly useless.

*does the math*... (33 skill + dex bonus + a single item bonus of +3, stealthy/skill focus hide/ms = roughly 49 or 50 hide/ms).

Yup, that'd be enough to drive the last nail in the coffin of my BG career!

I would like to have banking in game. I have seen it on other servers.

People will twink no matter what. No sense in trying to enforce no item xferring.

Coin weight while nifty simply does not sound like a good use of our volunteer programmers. I'd rather have more skills, feats, classes, and quests then have to convert coins to platinum.

Hipsters gonna hips. I really do wish they would at least pretend to hide rather then stand infront of me with a lamp in their face but oh well.

Crafting is something im all for. All those skillpoints and feats invested in crafting would be worth something finally. I don't think a DM has ever asked max to roll craft armor/craft weapon/craft alchemy. This would have to be implemented carefully. On the DB server they had it and everything was pretty much worthless besides unisave items that stacked. We really don't want to end up with characters having 70ac/ab/fort/will/ref

Don't we already have people that can hit 70 AC?

Would be nice to be able to hit e'm more than once every blue moon when your character is supposed to be good at hitting things.

grymhild wrote: why?

Because your dream world is killing RCR, punishing every single mistake people make and increases frustration.

If you somehow managed to kill illegal trades, like dropping your item on the ground, or letting someone else mule it for you etc., like Haven did you still have one problem. The dirty side business. My character A gives something to your character B, and your character C gives something to my character D. Things like that.

Even if you managed to quell that too (which Haven haven't), you're killing curiosity. People will lose EVERYTHING they've earned if they pick a wrong feat, a wrong class, domain etc. due to lack of information or just classic mistakes too far gone (unless they can delevel themselves). To take advantage of new releases, people have to start from nothing like they just started the game. A hurdle that many just don't like facing because it's incredibly tedious after the first 2-3 characters. Especially since you're making newbie gear impossible to buy at level 1. I mean, a new character starts with 1000 gold, and your world charges 5.000 for a basic heavy crossbow, or 1200 for a warhammer. Which is nice and all, but even if we're going with your conservative approach to weight of 50 = 1lb, I would need 13 strength to even be able to carry the gold to buy that heavy crossbow provided I am naked otherwise. It's not even funny trying to buy a half-plate for 60.000 for which I only need 31 strength to carry the gold for.


I think that the only way to introduce an enjoyable world without muling or OOC trading etc. is to make gold a real currency. That means everything is in shops from the start, and if one is going for a more heavy roleplaying world with easier permadeath or such, these items need to be so cheap that everyone can get what they want within 1-2 weeks at most. However, there will still be OOC trading unless you make player to player trade impossible. Like, you can only sell to NPCs and the items they recieve permanently vanish. That's cutting out a great deal of the enjoyment of trading, or even crafting, as it cuts into interaction.

But, I won't be just negative. I'll provide my own dream world as a fair exhange

BGTSCC with these exceptions:

• Strict enforcement of +5 EB, bonus damage at D4 elemental, 2 other types, with D6 elemental or 3 for other types on weapons that are large or a katana, bastard sword or Dwarven Waraxe.
• +4 Ability items, +5 AC items. Skills cap at +2 (adjust some detection/stealth spells with this in mind).
• Dispel fix. PSC fix. Allow every class, every race, every domain, every feat and every spell. Some need adjustments for balance, but no cut content.
• ECL counts towards the level cap. A drow would for example only be able to reach level 28 since they've an ECL of +2.
• Custom crafting, or in our situation, just use the crafting system NWN2 came with. Take away some ingredients from the module entirely, thereby limiting recipies. It's a doable stand-in until a better system is created.
• Epic Shops throughout the server having every single item for sale (except maybe some mediocre to decent ones made from crafting), but some at difficult to reach places. DM rewards are different than shop items, but of more or less equal power. They're cool variations, or custom items for RP, not mainly power.
• Rebalancing the environment. Make areas a different challenge, with some monsters being more of glass cannons, others tanks etc., instead of all of them being high HP, low AC, low offence. Introduce more traps, dead magic zones and other ways that encourage diversity in groups besides spawns. There should be multiple equally rewarding areas at all level ranges, so people can switch it up frequently no matter their level.
• Maybe really alter how some things work, like HIPS. Restricting its use to certain features, or just making HIPS a feat that gives bonus to stealth. To adjust this, sneak attack damage would be far more damaging and you could re-hide behind some objects etc. Needs some more thought.
• Make more creatures not soloable. Particularly the dangerous kinds, like giants, dragons etc. They should be really mean, and require parties. Size matters. Creatures scary in lore are really scary now even mechanically.
• Carrots for some classes. For example, maybe there is a quest that only Spirit Shamans of a certain level (say 20) can take, once per character, that takes them to the spirit world which would be an area only they can reach. If they finish it, they get an undroppable, untradable powerful item that helps that specific class catch up a bit.
• Have the Forgotten Realms setting, but invent the landscape. Say there is a previously undiscovered island somewhere. People arrive (this is the level 1 experience) to it. What that island transforms into, is largely a community project of different wills and actions taken IC. Make permanent factions that PCs can join, which are often at the throat of one another (not necessarily war, just conflict and opposed most of the time). Cities and villages rise up, it's like a medieval Italian city states climate. The timeline expands constantly, and so the metaplot is truly a thing. Actions do matter and isn't tied up because of future lore. It allows for creativity on behalf of the entire community.
• A bank might rise, allowing people to store things. Of course, that bank could get robbed too.
• Repeatable quests make sense, and are limited by levels ranges. Some can only be done at level 1-5, some at 6-10 etc.

There probably are some more things to it, but that's what I got out of the top of my head

grymhild wrote:

Karond wrote:Grymhild's dream world is a nightmare for me, I would run away fast!

mrieder79 wrote:I would shrivel up and die. Then implode.

why?

Because I've spent years building my characters. If they were suddenly gone, I don't think I would have the heart to come back and start again. I would miss them. I would miss the shinies I worked so hard to get. I would question the worth of trying to rebuild my gear and wealth, knowing it could be wiped away in an instant.

This is a game. For fun. Getting all your toys deleted isn't fun.


Edit to add: my comment was more toward the vault wipe than your specific ideas.

WTB +5 longsword, its quite funny that casters can have access to +5 weapons with just leveling while martials are stuck with +4

Wow, all I have to say is, imagine if people put this much passionate effort into solving world hunger!

Grandfathered items have an effect. Sum in total of making an Epic 30 character more powerful, very minimal. Helping a Character level through Epics, moderate. Overall, I think it is a grass is always greener scenario. People don't realize how minimal an effect these items display because they don't have access but if they did, this wouldn't be an issue.

Personally I think, leave them in and let's work on world hunger. Reason, those players whom have said items are generally speaking, older players whom have earned their bones developing RP and making donations for many, many, years now. So, I respect their efforts. I would be more on guard against any players whom arbitrarily receive Epic level current items, or what is even more powerful, server changing RP items simply due to a cult of personality carried with one, or more DMs. That being said, I have not seen, nor have any examples of this currently.

Karond wrote:

grymhild wrote: why?

Because your dream world is killing RCR, punishing every single mistake people make and increases frustration.

If you somehow managed to kill illegal trades, like dropping your item on the ground, or letting someone else mule it for you etc., like Haven did you still have one problem. The dirty side business. My character A gives something to your character B, and your character C gives something to my character D. Things like that.

Even if you managed to quell that too (which Haven haven't), you're killing curiosity. People will lose EVERYTHING they've earned if they pick a wrong feat, a wrong class, domain etc. due to lack of information or just classic mistakes too far gone (unless they can delevel themselves). To take advantage of new releases, people have to start from nothing like they just started the game. A hurdle that many just don't like facing because it's incredibly tedious after the first 2-3 characters. Especially since you're making newbie gear impossible to buy at level 1. I mean, a new character starts with 1000 gold, and your world charges 5.000 for a basic heavy crossbow, or 1200 for a warhammer. Which is nice and all, but even if we're going with your conservative approach to weight of 50 = 1lb, I would need 13 strength to even be able to carry the gold to buy that heavy crossbow provided I am naked otherwise. It's not even funny trying to buy a half-plate for 60.000 for which I only need 31 strength to carry the gold for.


I think that the only way to introduce an enjoyable world without muling or OOC trading etc. is to make gold a real currency. That means everything is in shops from the start, and if one is going for a more heavy roleplaying world with easier permadeath or such, these items need to be so cheap that everyone can get what they want within 1-2 weeks at most. However, there will still be OOC trading unless you make player to player trade impossible. Like, you can only sell to NPCs and the items they recieve permanently vanish. That's cutting out a great deal of the enjoyment of trading, or even crafting, as it cuts into interaction.

But, I won't be just negative. I'll provide my own dream world as a fair exhange

BGTSCC with these exceptions:

• Strict enforcement of +5 EB, bonus damage at D4 elemental, 2 other types, with D6 elemental or 3 for other types on weapons that are large or a katana, bastard sword or Dwarven Waraxe.
• +4 Ability items, +5 AC items. Skills cap at +2 (adjust some detection/stealth spells with this in mind).
• Dispel fix. PSC fix. Allow every class, every race, every domain, every feat and every spell. Some need adjustments for balance, but no cut content.
• ECL counts towards the level cap. A drow would for example only be able to reach level 28 since they've an ECL of +2.
• Custom crafting, or in our situation, just use the crafting system NWN2 came with. Take away some ingredients from the module entirely, thereby limiting recipies. It's a doable stand-in until a better system is created.
• Epic Shops throughout the server having every single item for sale (except maybe some mediocre to decent ones made from crafting), but some at difficult to reach places. DM rewards are different than shop items, but of more or less equal power. They're cool variations, or custom items for RP, not mainly power.
• Rebalancing the environment. Make areas a different challenge, with some monsters being more of glass cannons, others tanks etc., instead of all of them being high HP, low AC, low offence. Introduce more traps, dead magic zones and other ways that encourage diversity in groups besides spawns. There should be multiple equally rewarding areas at all level ranges, so people can switch it up frequently no matter their level.
• Maybe really alter how some things work, like HIPS. Restricting its use to certain features, or just making HIPS a feat that gives bonus to stealth. To adjust this, sneak attack damage would be far more damaging and you could re-hide behind some objects etc. Needs some more thought.
• Make more creatures not soloable. Particularly the dangerous kinds, like giants, dragons etc. They should be really mean, and require parties. Size matters. Creatures scary in lore are really scary now even mechanically.
• Carrots for some classes. For example, maybe there is a quest that only Spirit Shamans of a certain level (say 20) can take, once per character, that takes them to the spirit world which would be an area only they can reach. If they finish it, they get an undroppable, untradable powerful item that helps that specific class catch up a bit.
• Have the Forgotten Realms setting, but invent the landscape. Say there is a previously undiscovered island somewhere. People arrive (this is the level 1 experience) to it. What that island transforms into, is largely a community project of different wills and actions taken IC. Make permanent factions that PCs can join, which are often at the throat of one another (not necessarily war, just conflict and opposed most of the time). Cities and villages rise up, it's like a medieval Italian city states climate. The timeline expands constantly, and so the metaplot is truly a thing. Actions do matter and isn't tied up because of future lore. It allows for creativity on behalf of the entire community.
• A bank might rise, allowing people to store things. Of course, that bank could get robbed too.
• Repeatable quests make sense, and are limited by levels ranges. Some can only be done at level 1-5, some at 6-10 etc.

There probably are some more things to it, but that's what I got out of the top of my head

You know, i really like your dream world Karond. Please make it happen. please.
And on the crafting, i don't even want people to be able to craft super items, just have a weapon crafting with several metals etc, same with the other items. just to bring some flavor to the low-mid level scene. some character can come and say "I got this weapon from smith X, you should check him out ! he does amazing work!" that kind of thing makes the world come alive.

I am always surprised about how much people care and/or worry about digital nothing-stuff.

This is a game. These things—characters, items, XP, etc.—are worthless. Really. Worth nothing. The fact that you, me or them spent 100+ hours getting an Elven Longsword of Orc Neck Smiles is nothing more than 100+ hours spent having fun. Why do you think your "fun" is now worth something that prevents changes, new possibilities, new action?

Let me present it another way: at any moment, any moment...Luna could pull the plug on BGTSCC. Everything gone. Bye bye. What then? Would you feel gutted? Would you feel that you just lost some concrete investment? You'd be left with the IRC and nothing else. And guess what? That proves my general point: it's the community that has value, not the "digital stuff" around it. The game is a vehicle, for that community, and for our personal fun. Defining your self and/or your happiness by what exists in a Toon, in their Inventory.... That is dangerous territory for the psyche.

To say this Server's "value" is stuck in the form, and then if the form is kinda broken (or has been for some time), that we shouldn't fix the form because then we'll lose the value, is such a circular, defeatist attitude that, to be honest, keeps you in a low place and essentially is blocking your personal progression of self—stamping out any change for or "betterness" for Everyone because you feel you've already accomplished it the hard way, and thus are "owed" your security in your things. Look beyond the "shinies" and the expectation that your digital nothings should be protected as if in themselves, some right or guaranteed existence.

When one can separate their feelings from their Toons and the Stuff they have, then one is not only truly free of conscious, but also full of power...beyond the Game.

To Karond (Because I forgot to quote you before reading the rest of everything): I had a friend that got me involved on a NWN1 server that sounded alot like your ideas. A group ended up blowing up a small village battling a demon army and the wreckage is still there today. I think its a central hub for people to gather before heading out on adventures even. Its been a while since I've been to any NWN1 servers though, so it could have been rebuilt by now I suppose. Not sure, but I agree with those ideas.

Karond wrote:
[*] Have the Forgotten Realms setting, but invent the landscape. Say there is a previously undiscovered island somewhere. People arrive (this is the level 1 experience) to it. What that island transforms into, is largely a community project of different wills and actions taken IC. Make permanent factions that PCs can join, which are often at the throat of one another (not necessarily war, just conflict and opposed most of the time). Cities and villages rise up, it's like a medieval Italian city states climate. The timeline expands constantly, and so the metaplot is truly a thing. Actions do matter and isn't tied up because of future lore. It allows for creativity on behalf of the entire community.

While not necessarily an island, you are describing the Border Kingdoms region of Faerun. The Border Kingdoms are a region where power changes quickly and kings rise and fall. There is no stable lore for the Border Kingdoms because it was created for campaigns in the the forgotten realms while not having to deal with preset powers.

However, the Border Kingdoms are nowhere near the Western Heartlands.

Karond wrote:

grymhild wrote: why?

Because your dream world is killing RCR, punishing every single mistake people make and increases frustration.

If you somehow managed to kill illegal trades, like dropping your item on the ground, or letting someone else mule it for you etc., like Haven did you still have one problem. The dirty side business. My character A gives something to your character B, and your character C gives something to my character D. Things like that.

Even if you managed to quell that too (which Haven haven't), you're killing curiosity. People will lose EVERYTHING they've earned if they pick a wrong feat, a wrong class, domain etc. due to lack of information or just classic mistakes too far gone (unless they can delevel themselves). To take advantage of new releases, people have to start from nothing like they just started the game. A hurdle that many just don't like facing because it's incredibly tedious after the first 2-3 characters.

transfer of wealth through RCR to the "same" character could still be allowed for changes to feats or skills etc, IG storage could be based off of PC name, or some other rules. scripts could monitor potential abuse and flag a character for review by the staff

rules could be made for higher starting wealth values for a new PC through 'true' RCR as in -RETIRED- Character Reimbursement.

...but personally i don't think dynastic "player"-based meta-wealth is a good idea

Karond wrote:Especially since you're making newbie gear impossible to buy at level 1. I mean, a new character starts with 1000 gold, and your world charges 5.000 for a basic heavy crossbow, or 1200 for a warhammer.

we definitely shouldn't increase the cost of items without also increasing PC starting wealth... though, why should a 1st level PC have 1000 GOLD coins??? (I'd actually rather see all new PCs start at 3rd-5th level, in which case 1000 gold might not be unreasonable)

• but changing how money is valued, we'd have to change several things - changing just one or two would have some rather weird effects
• revise character starting wealth to reflect new wealth values, for example instead of 1000"gp", it would be 100,000 cp (aka "gp")
• revise most* item prices *100
  • * note: some item prices like ales, probably shouldn't cost 500 gold coins
• revise loot drops
• quests are revised to have 'sane' lore based rewards
• IG storage, especially useful for large amounts of wealth
• spells that have a gold cost are revised to use a "component" pouch, component pouches are a generic item with a value set by interacting with a component vendor

Karond wrote:Which is nice and all, but even if we're going with your conservative approach to weight of 50 = 1lb, I would need 13 strength to even be able to carry the gold to buy that heavy crossbow provided I am naked otherwise. It's not even funny trying to buy a half-plate for 60.000 for which I only need 31 strength to carry the gold for.

but I agree that calculating weight of pc wealth in just copper coins isn't a great idea.

There are a couple ways I can think of to do it.

Ideas:

1. physical coins
   
   • create stackable (and tradeable) coin items of each denomination, ie pp, gp, sp, cp
   • coin stacks have weight of 50 = 1lb
   • replace loot table gold drops with physical coins
   • transactions between PCs are done using tradeable coin objects
   • stackable coin objects are dynamically converted* to and from nwn2 gp at merchants for ig transactions
     • * note: careful testing of edge cases to avoid bugs or exploits
   • higher value gemstones can be purchased for light-weight carrying of wealth
   • optional
     • gemstones can not be used as 'currency' and must be converted first
     • have merchants charge a small fee for coin conversion
     • lore based forgotten realms coins like trade bars, gond bells, brakar, harbor moons, toals, silvermoons, underdark platka, etc.
2. or calculate weight of pc wealth based on auto conversion to lesser coin types,
   examples:
   1. 98,765 -> 98 pp, 7gp, 6sp, 5cp = 98+7+6+5 = 116 coins = 116 coins / 50 coins/lb = 2.3 lbs
   2. 678,910 -> 678pp, 9gp, 1sp, 0 cp = 678+9+1+0 = 688 coins = 688 /50 = 13.8
      lbs
   3. 5,432,109 -> 5432pp, 1gp, 0 sp, 9cp = 5432+1+0 = 5442 coins = 5442/50 = 109 lbs
   4. 60,000,000 -> 60,000 pp = 60,000 coins = 60,000 / 50 = 1200 lbs

[/list]


i -do- like a lot of your other suggestions though! (i'll try to comment on them when i have a little more time)

-^^

In short:
The items that give a marginal advantage are balanced by items you can still get in game. I have picked up +4 spot items several times in recent months. My bard can spot grandfathered sneaks with an 80+ spot. Not many of her items are granfathered. What's important to keep in mind with hide is the script itself is buggy. If you roll over 100 the second digits are the only ones accounted for. (May have been fixed) so having above 80 can be a liability.

There are items that give an advantage like the greater ring of intellect, but there are so many more spells than issacs missile storm.

The items that were too powerful such as "ring of the Ram" which gave knock down as a feat? They have been removed and taken from game. This is a common trend with most of the grossly overpowered items.

So in conclusion if all you concern yourself with is the strength of your build and items:
Join an action server, slap your bros five and kill a bunch of monsters together


As for realism:

Immersion is great. Role play is the reason we play here. But there is a point where realism and immersion can be overwhelming and a burdan. Mules are here because we cannot store items, we don't have player houses, etc etc. gold doesn't weigh a vast amount because it's assumed you don't carry that much gold with you. Heck, there are banks in the gate. They used to have them accessible! I created a character on the dream of robbing them!

Immersion is great but there is a reason we don't RP
Changing clothes
Urinating
Pooping
Etc

Because there comes a point where more depth doesn't necessarily make for a better story. Like when George Lucas explained the force with micro organisms. Sometimes fantasy needs to be fantasy.

This is all just my opinion

CommanderKrieg wrote:I have picked up +4 spot items several times in recent months. My bard can spot grandfathered sneaks with an 80+ spot.

But see, this is the issue (one we are working to address)... As a spotter you can get these +4 items, but as a stealth PC you can't just slap on +4 hide gear (doesn't exist except one ring +6 or DM rewards/old gear that is no longer available)... In any case you have to make sure you have both hide and move silently to defend from detection and the gear available is not competitive with detection gear.

CommanderKrieg wrote:What's important to keep in mind with hide is the script itself is buggy. If you roll over 100 the second digits are the only ones accounted for. (May have been fixed) so having above 80 can be a liability.

I have heard this before, but have never seen anything definitive... I have heard you can go up to 100 skill on stealth because you don't get an opposed roll... I have also heard you get an opposed roll, but if over 100 it keeps the last two digits, as you say, but if that is the case, what happens if you go over 100 with your spot roll? is it the same issue, but not noticed because you get to keep rolling detection every round and eventually will 'win' the detection roll?