Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

mrm3ntalist wrote: Can you give us an example? I can give you many examples, when many of my non casting characters were also able to solve everything.

I would prefer not to single anything out, which is why I choose to, instead, make the OP with link, so that Players and maybe DMs can think it over. And determine the value, on their own, to role-play.

But again, I do not say "casters," I say Magic. Magic is also available to non-casters, as well as Magic becomes both the Problem and the Solution, to be solved. And I'm going to bet dollars-on-cents your non-casters rely on Magic, just as much as anyone else.

Seems the issue is lack of weakness in RP which I guess could lead to not handling loss well as a player.

Dagesh wrote:Seems the issue is lack of weakness in RP which I guess could lead to not handling loss well as a player.

Lack of weakness is not the cause of not handling loss well. Each individual player is. Even a player with every RP weakness possible, can handle loss badly.

Considering the environment of this server, the type (medium RP trying to be open to as many playing concepts as possible) and the limitations of nwn2 I don't think it's realistic to expect people to tone down their magic use and treat it "more seriously" in their day to day activities on the server. The only place where I could see something being enforced and expected in regards to use of magic is in DM events.

Though even in DM events, there are issues. Level 30 who extends a 1min/level spell will have it last for a whole hour. Think about it, it takes a LEVEL 30 CHARACTER in D&D, basically a demigod, to have 1min/level spell last an entire hour. We take that for granted while at the same time large majority of the server is trying to convince themselves that they don't play adventurers. Nope, no adventurers here. Just a bunch of commoners with 30 spellcasting levels. It comes down to DM's having to drag the events out for several hours, forbidding resting to have the spellcasters expend their spells and put thought into their usage of spells. I'm not talking about combat here, I'm talking about using spells in events for the RP side of things. Typical example is when a dm tries to run an event revolving around deception using illusion magic. Gee so much fun right? Wrong. They will have a few spellcasters with their 60 minute true seeing (per cast) ruining everything. If they were level 15 they would likely have one true seeing memorized, and it likely wouldn't be extended. Their decision when to cast (or if they should cast it at all) would not be an easy one. On BG though? They cast it at the first sign of something suspicious.


I wanted to make an argument that adventurers are not commoners, and that averages do not mean anything for adventurers. But that's a moot point seeing as people rarely play actual adventurers on BG.

I will say Magic user

Lockonnow wrote:I will say Magic user

I second that motion!!

*easy way of bumping*

*bump*

thids wrote:Think about it, it takes a LEVEL 30 CHARACTER in D&D, basically a demigod, to have 1min/level spell last an entire hour.

Yes, indeed. These spells are designed in PnP basically to last an encounter or two, while the 1round/level spells are highly situational. Only the hour/level spells (and contingency) are really proper wards.

EDIT: Oh dear, this was thread necromancy. Damnit, Steve.

Very interesting topic...

We shouldn't forget though that magic does not exclusively takes form as spells and supernatural abilities in the Forgotten Realms. Expecially in our server I'd say that the biggest amount of magic power is carried in form of magical equipment, regardless the characther is a caster or not.

It's very easy to find enchanted armors, weapons, clothes, potions and rings and they have enough power to transform a character, deeply. This is still magic! It's still connected to the Weave and if you think it's not relevant try to put any character inside an anti-magic field:

Would they be the same heroes? What would happen to their AC, for example? What about their attack bonus or their spell DC? What about the magical damage from the weapons? Would you be able to face the same opponents with the same amount of effort? It's a retoric question, of course you wouldn't.
I've always had the impression that in the Forgotten Realms enchanted items should be very rare: if I have to mention one of my favorite, Drizz't do Urden, he found one of his scimitars in the den of a white dragon, after a deadly fight. Also, he took his bracers of dexterity (later put at his ankles to have a quicker footwork) from one of the best Weapon Masters in Menzoberranzan, after defeating him in a duel. This warrior was from a noble family and if I'm not mistaken they were a very important heritage.

So you can't really find them in the shop around the corner, can you? ^_^
What I'm trying to say is that if a cleric/wizard/magician in your group grants you the power of a magic armor, or a +4 enchantment for your blade or a bull's strength spell, it's not perceived as great as it should be. Someone as arleady pointed that out: in the server magic is everywhere and it's very accessible so we got used to it. I don't know how casters feel about this (I've never played one) but that's just my point of view that I wanted to share

I think proverbial wrench in the correct idea of "Magic is rare" tends to be the fact that every single one of the player characters (in PnP and on PWs) is a special snowflake. In other words, do you think the average soldier is running around with a +3 Heavy Shield, enchanted sword, etc., etc.? No. PCs are the exception and we should treat them as such.

That said, Forgotten Realms is probably the setting with the most magic, short of Planescape (where everyone has magic due to the Planes being so full of magic). FR is a High Magic setting, where even the gods walk Toril.

samb123 wrote:That said, Forgotten Realms is probably the setting with the most magic, short of Planescape (where everyone has magic due to the Planes being so full of magic). FR is a High Magic setting, where even the gods walk Toril.

This was in the OP: http://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/lore/life/magic.shtml

Steve wrote:

samb123 wrote:That said, Forgotten Realms is probably the setting with the most magic, short of Planescape (where everyone has magic due to the Planes being so full of magic). FR is a High Magic setting, where even the gods walk Toril.

This was in the OP: http://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/lore/life/magic.shtml

Yes, I know. But the important part is that our Player Characters are NOT normal individuals.

To be quite frank the problems concerning the pervasiveness of magic could be solved with a lower level cap. If the level cap was, say, somewhere between 8 and 12, you'd have a little less 24-7 sparklies.

That won't happen, but :shrug:

I cannot say if many share this opinion—I am pretty sure Invoker doesn't —and I realize that magic is kinda the reason people play fantasy games, so if anything, I'm advocating a World where magic is MORE IMPORTANT than now, through its rarity and its particular use, then it's pervasiveness and commonness. To whatever extent we choose or consider best for rewarding experience for all (and ourselves, natch).

This. 100%. I agree with this.

The note about the DMs not being able to present challenging scenarios that feel real is an issue, too, because people assume their level 30 ubermensch can tackle any problem magically. And mechanically, they can. That's a big issue, and it's kind of grating to think about.

It also makes it harder for lower level characters to be involved, because there's such a HUGE gap between the capacity of a 30th level spellcaster and a 6th level one; less so than there would be if the level cap were lower (again, not happening). This stuff is sadly kind of baked into the server, and you're not pulling those eggs out of the dough once it's been mixed.

Khazrak wrote:The note about the DMs not being able to present challenging scenarios that feel real is an issue, too, because people assume their level 30 ubermensch can tackle any problem magically. And mechanically, they can. That's a big issue, and it's kind of grating to think about.

The way to solve this is to not allow people to just fire off a spell and solve the problem. In other words, you may fire off some powerful spell, BUT:
1) Our characters are NOT HD 30, but rather HD 15, in terms of RP. (Otherwise, it gets ridiculous.) This makes our RP more feasible, frankly.
2) DMs should be (and it's my understanding they are) presenting scenarios where a spell is NOT going to solve the whole problem. It may fix one thing, but you can't just solve the entire plot/event with a single spell.


Also, folks forget when playing NWN2, epic level characters, in PnP, are designed for epic level campaigns. We're talking the kind of campaign where you're facing down gods and changing the multiverse. Epic level characters basically grow into almost-demigod power levels. Obviously, that's not feasible on BGTSCC, just saying... NONE OF US are Elminster, folks!