Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

About the original RP situation you talked about in your first post Fearknight, I was there with Myru and the RP looked perfect for me. At least for the time I was there, because I had to go before it ended. Erebos acted as a ranger defending the camp from a hidden orc, and suited the situation perfectly. That being said, the situation developed to an somewhat akward way IMO. But that is another matter. No one's fault.

Thorsson wrote:

Kayan wrote:

NegInfinity wrote: As long as people can separate IC/OOC, I would enjoy more IC hatred and distrust to the other races. This kind of RP usually acknowledge choice of one's race and indicates that it has more weight than just mechanical benefit.

One would think that any player choosing to play a full-blooded orc character would be making the choice with this very thing in mind.

Some do, but many don't.

This sort of thread appears regularly, as has been noted, but it seems many people have difficulty in distinguishing between racism in FR (where it is not only entirely valid, but canon) and that IRL (where it is brutish, nasty and thoroughly Orc-like).

A new thread to this argument that I've seen used lately, is that if players wish to bring modern day morals to Faerun then kick canon and make it part of server lore. That goes against what this server has always stood for in the past, but I think it's time for an up to date DM ruling on the matter, as the current situation is set to boil over at some point.

That's exactly the point. Faerun is not the Earth in the modern times. Maybe more like the Middle Age if we can compare it with a real Age. But stil, far from it. Race racism exists, and I'd say that is very strong. Humans don't like orcs; orcs don't like dwarves; dwarves don't like elves; elves don't like... well, elves don't like orcs, humans, dwarves, drow... Damned elves

Now seriously, as a more general point of view of mine, I have always though that sometimes there is some lack of lore running around. Again, no one's fault. More than ruling, I think some links to basic lore threads on the wiki could help a lot.

NegInfinity wrote: Or better yet - CAPTURE the villain yourself. Drag him to silver rose/flaming fist.

Silver Rose has no authority what so ever.

And even if you catch a villain and drag him to the FF; if it's outside of their jurisdiction, they're going to shrug and toss you both out. One of the reasons why I personally think it was a mistake to remove the FF patrols at the FAI - because it took away the potential to enforce consequences.

And you're right. It has to be reported. But because of how the DMs have formed the server now, if crimes happen in areas with guards, it is metagaming (and that is frankly appropriate) unless a DM is available, willing and able to RP the guards. If it happens outside of areas where there are guards, it is deemed ICly outside of jurisdiction (this decision is a mistake in my opinion). So either way crimes cannot have IC consequences. They're OOC or they don't happen.

Deathgrowl wrote:I think part of the reason why one perceives so little hostility towards the obvious evils (necromancers, orcs, blood maguses, warlocks) is that there's no real point antagonising them. Whatever you do, there's no enforced consequences for actions and so why bother? If I see a necromancer with a vampire in tow, I can react with RP and be hostile. I can even beat the necromancer in PvP and kill it. And then 24 hours later, I'm going to see him wandering about with another vampire yet again. And over and over it goes.

And thus you end up with ridiculous cartoon villains. You can all think of a few already.

Obviously this door swings both ways. The obvious evils don't have a lot of point in antagonising the goodies either (though it does happen more). Start encouraging consequences by placing them on your own character before demanding it from others, and maybe we'll manage to change the views people have on it.

If there is a reason for me to support 100% or minimal penalty rcr, it is based on the above. (and sorry for tying the topics together. I expect much hate here shortly).

The point: I like it when there are long-term consequences for characters. If a character truly deserves to die in a very un-savable way... and they lose... they should be dead. There should be a meaningful end to the character. I am personally much more comfortable with the idea of perma-killing my own PCs when I don't lose 100's of hours of real-life grindage to it.

Fearknight try reading a book called The book of exalted deeds if you can find it in pdf form online. The book is the final authority on the nature of good and it makes clear that blind racism is not good. Orcs are usually evil yes, but not all are and the book stresses the importance of treating people as individuals rather then a stereotype. I base my good character's beleifs on that book and thus my view of good is often at odds with what most people think good is. If you read that book you will at least be able to understand my character's reasoning and why he does as he does. Also I did not say she was evil for wanting the death of orcs, what I said was that if she condones blind racism and advocates genocide she is evil. I asked you if she would support that and you said yes thus my insult of her. And feel free to seek revenge against my character if you wish... conflict rp is fun rp.

When you see an orc, report them to your local authorities. They will be quick to act and deport said orc back to the spine of the world. Unless they want to apply for a green card.

V'rass wrote:Fearknight try reading a book called The book of exalted deeds if you can find it in pdf form online. The book is the final authority on the nature of good and it makes clear that blind racism is not good. Orcs are usually evil yes, but not all are and the book stresses the importance of treating people as individuals rather then a stereotype.

It is worth remembering that Exhalted deeds describes absolute good. On a saint level.
Most of characters will not achieve it and will be somewhere between absolute good and absolute evil.
And speaking of paladins... striving to preserve absolute good would be a great way for a paladin to fall. Because the class has inherent conflict between good and law.

True and I don't claim to have achieved saint lv... it is merely what I try to achieve. No one is perfect.

Maximvs wrote:When you see an orc, report them to your local authorities. They will be quick to act and deport said orc back to the spine of the world. Unless they want to apply for a green card.

We need to build a wall.

Build a wall and make the orcs pay for it.

We need to make Faerun great again!

Is it time already for the yearly "tolerance vs racism" thread?

Holding stereotypes against monster races is most certainly not evil, no matter what kind of modern sjw arguments you try to attach to it. A character coming from a region which faces an orc horde every 2-3 years, and I mean a proper orc horde, can be good aligned and still hold deep-seated hatred and intolerance towards orcs. It is on the player who decided to play a non-typical member of a monster race to try and convince such a character that their fullblooded orc does not pose a threat, it is not on the other player to go out of their way to have their character accept an orc. Otherwise, judging by some posts in this thread, we may conclude that a good portion of active characters deserve alignment shifts. Since, you know, they have committed genocide on several monster races without trying to "understand" them. "Oh, are you using hips to get a jump on that poor goblin there, away from the road minding its own business? Why don't you try talking to him first, maybe he's not your typical goblin." Bending RP concepts to accommodate fellow players is acceptable, breaking them is not.

Both good and evil have many aspects, and how harpers conduct themselves is most certainly not something that good in general is defined by. It is just an aspect of good. Most paladins, for an example, would have much trouble even accepting Harper methods, let alone working by them. Yet aren't the paladins the epitome of goodness in any D&D setting? Most people would probably say so, though even paladins are simply one aspect of good.

The issue that we often oversee in such threads is the fact that by the time your character meets an orc PC, the orc might have earned the trust of half the sword coast by that point. At that point they don't really have the need to earn the trust of your PC as well, since they have a good number of other PC's who will vouch for them. Killing an orc while a crowd of people is convincing you that the orc isn't a threat is a completely different matter than killing an orc who didn't put any effort into proving they aren't like most of their kin somewhere in the wilderness. And while that may seem unfair to those RPing characters which hate orcs (and on some points, it truly is), that's simply how a persistent world works. Which is why orcs and other surface monster races should never be a playable PC race (on the surface). But, since they are, we have these "fun" 15 page threads once or twice every year

As a side-note, I do love seeing those super accepting non-racist good aligned characters who end up excommunicating other good-aligned or neutral characters just because they hate orcs, instead of trying to work out the differences and at least try and get to a common ground with such characters. Either by "educating" them, or finding ways to get along with them. Luckily, just like racism, hypocrisy doesn't necessarily grant you evil points

V'rass wrote:Fearknight try reading a book called The book of exalted deeds if you can find it in pdf form online. The book is the final authority on the nature of good and it makes clear that blind racism is not good.

The Book of Exalted Deeds is most certainly not the final authority on the nature of good in Forgotten Realms.

Champions of Valor p. 6 wrote:Book of Exalted Deeds addresses the concepts of good and evil in the D&D universe. This chapter examines those issues in the context of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting, providing advice for DMs and players who want more valor and heroics in their campaigns.

Champions of Valor p. 6 wrote:While the D&D game views good and evil in a more black-and-white sense than what exists in the real world, it is clear that in Faerûn, these concepts are not so cut-and-dried.

I did not have the time to try and educate the other character and even if I did he was not going to budge no matter how I tried to reason with him. His character like mine is set in his beliefs and is not going to change those lightly from what I observed. One of the main parts of his character's world view is hatred of Orcs so trying to reason with him would be futile as the chances of getting him to change his mind on the issue without extensive rp is negligible. People who have very passionate beliefs are rarely reasonable and often take years or even decades to reconsider their stances. Thus in the scenario that occurred conflict was practically inevitable from the start. It was fun rp and no ooc offense was intended or taken. Maybe in time my character can get his to change his mind but if that happens it wont be anytime soon. Its all rp from here...

The first part of my post is in no way or shape related to your post. I simply corrected your mistaken view that the Book of Exalted Deeds is the final authority on the nature of good in Forgotten Realms.

I am curious then... if the BED is not the final authority then which book is? I would read it assuming I can find it online.

Orcs are a monster race. Define monster, in whatever Region your PC may hail from.